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Mattlov wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:If we ignore the mind bogglingly horrendous rules for the Pyrovore for a second..

A bit off topic here, but why does everyone hate the Pyrovore so much? I have used them to great effect just dropping 2 in a Spore right next to say, a Guard infantry unit.

The Pyrovore is basically immune to synapse problems. It rages when out, but still gets to shoot, and it has power weapon attacks, so getting in CC isn't the worst thing is can do.

It is reasonably cheap.

What is the problem?

The main issue is that they take up an Elite slot that can be better filled with other units. In Apocalypse, they might see more play, but in regular games, there are just better options to take. Zoas are especially fun now, with that S10 AP1 Lance shot (Which, in one game, spent 4 turns shooting at a Land Raider and didn't kill it)

Except that they don't necessarily compete with better units. Zoanthropes, for example, are vulnerable to stuff like Psychic Hoods and Runic Weapons. Hive Guard are kind of one-dimensional.

H.B.M.C. wrote:If we ignore the mind bogglingly horrendous rules for the Pyrovore for a second, the Carnifex is the single biggest disappointment in the Codex. It is written almost as if the writers wanted to give a big "feth you!" to all the 'Nidzilla players with their Dakka and Gunfexes.

But more than the price tag, the 3+ save, the I1 and the bizarre need to arm them all in exactly the same manner, there is one thing above all else that I find simply absurd:

The Zoanthrope is a feeble creature, bloated with psychic energy and only capable of moving via psychic levitation. It's tiny arms would hardly be a threat to Gretchin, let alone Guardsmen or Marines. It is Weapon Skill 3.

The Biovore, a living artillery piece designed to stay far back from enemy lines shelling people with spore mines. Up close it is utterly defenceless, possessing no close combat ability to speak of. It is Weapon Skill 3.

The Mawloc possesses short and stubby arms that are inefficient in close combat - not weak, just not suited to actual HTH combat. It is Weapon Skill 3.

"The Carnifex is one of the deadliest of all the Hive Fleet's creatures". It is Weapon Skill 3.


WTF?

It's a Carnifex. Its resume' of martial arts skills consist of 'Flail arms around' and 'Run at them really fast'; not exactly the moves you'd see at the climax of a Ninja training montage...

'Flail your arms around' is actually a fairly decent tactic when you're five meters tall and can cleave a tank in half without really trying.

No, the fex should be WS 3. None of you have been in a real fist fight

MIKEtheMERCILESS wrote:It's a Carnifex. Its resume' of martial arts skills consist of 'Flail arms around' and 'Run at them really fast'; not exactly the moves you'd see at the climax of a Ninja training montage...

"Weapon Skill" is an abstraction of both how good you are at hitting things with your weapons, and how good you are at defending/difficult you are to hit. I'd say the whirring spinning flailing madness of something as immense and powerful as a Carnifex warrants it being more capable in HTH combat than a Guardsman!!!.

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:No, the fex should be WS 3. None of you have been in a real fist fight

With a five ton trucked-sized circular saw? I doubt it is anything like a 'real' fist fight.

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:No, the fex should be WS 3. None of you have been in a real fist fight

With a five ton trucked-sized circular saw? I doubt it is anything like a 'real' fist fight.

H.B.M.C., that's how fist-fights look outside of Australia, man...

The Carnifex is strong (S9) but slow (I1, WS3). Works for me, a more nimble fighter can try to get out of its way and ram a powerfist into its flank.

Greets
Schepp himself

I rather like the idea of a Carnifex in a monocle and a top hat challenging its human prey to fisticuffs.

Schepp himself wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:No, the fex should be WS 3. None of you have been in a real fist fight

With a five ton trucked-sized circular saw? I doubt it is anything like a 'real' fist fight.

H.B.M.C., that's how fist-fights look outside of Australia, man...

The Carnifex is strong (S9) but slow (I1, WS3). Works for me, a more nimble fighter can try to get out of its way and ram a powerfist into its flank.

Greets
Schepp himself

Exactly!! He may be stong and flailing but if it's in slow motion, everyone is like Peter Parker with him.

GG

Schepp himself wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:No, the fex should be WS 3. None of you have been in a real fist fight

With a five ton trucked-sized circular saw? I doubt it is anything like a 'real' fist fight.

H.B.M.C., that's how fist-fights look outside of Australia, man...

The Carnifex is strong (S9) but slow (I1, WS3). Works for me, a more nimble fighter can try to get out of its way and ram a powerfist into its flank.

Greets
Schepp himself

I gotta go with Schepp on this one... The Fex is like any comic book or movie brick-type villain. He can drop some hammer blows, but the hero can usually dodge his blows relatively easily. Scaled, of course, for a table-top miniatures game.

After all, his way just isn't very sporting...

Vale,

JohnS

cygnnus wrote:
I gotta go with Schepp on this one... The Fex is like any comic book or movie brick-type villain. He can drop some hammer blows, but the hero can usually dodge his blows relatively easily. Scaled, of course, for a table-top miniatures game.

Hey... didn't I just kind of say that!!

GG

H.B.M.C. wrote:If we ignore the mind bogglingly horrendous rules for the Pyrovore for a second, the Carnifex is the single biggest disappointment in the Codex. It is written almost as if the writers wanted to give a big "feth you!" to all the 'Nidzilla players with their Dakka and Gunfexes.

But more than the price tag, the 3+ save, the I1 and the bizarre need to arm them all in exactly the same manner, there is one thing above all else that I find simply absurd:

The Zoanthrope is a feeble creature, bloated with psychic energy and only capable of moving via psychic levitation. It's tiny arms would hardly be a threat to Gretchin, let alone Guardsmen or Marines. It is Weapon Skill 3.

The Biovore, a living artillery piece designed to stay far back from enemy lines shelling people with spore mines. Up close it is utterly defenceless, possessing no close combat ability to speak of. It is Weapon Skill 3.

The Mawloc possesses short and stubby arms that are inefficient in close combat - not weak, just not suited to actual HTH combat. It is Weapon Skill 3.

"The Carnifex is one of the deadliest of all the Hive Fleet's creatures". It is Weapon Skill 3

I agree that that's unusual-- Biovores should be WS 0, Zoans should be WS 1, and Mawlocs should be WS 2.

Schepp himself wrote:

H.B.M.C. wrote:

I grappled the shoggoth wrote:No, the fex should be WS 3. None of you have been in a real fist fight

With a five ton trucked-sized circular saw? I doubt it is anything like a 'real' fist fight.

H.B.M.C., that's how fist-fights look outside of Australia, man...

The Carnifex is strong (S9) but slow (I1, WS3). Works for me, a more nimble fighter can try to get out of its way and ram a powerfist into its flank.

Except the guy with the Powerfist is JUST AS SLOW as the Carnifex.

Slower, if the Carnifex charged. Which is presumably why the Carnifex misses with its initial strikes (guess it doesn't have Scything Talons) and the Powerfist-wielder strikes second.

Nurglitch wrote:I rather like the idea of a Carnifex in a monocle and a top hat challenging its human prey to fisticuffs.

I can imagine that. It's not as stupid as it sounds.

Nurglitch wrote:I rather like the idea of a Carnifex in a monocle and a top hat challenging its human prey to fisticuffs.

I forsee a conversion of Ole One Eye with a monocle and top hat forthcoming.

hmmm....getting ideas for English speaking Tyranids....*digs through bits* MUHAHAHAHA!!!

unite all action wrote:All in all very disappointed

as always they now expect us to go out and buy new toys.

I'm not. GW swung the pendulum, and as usual, there are shinier, newer baubles available.

Go buy them.

Mistress of minis wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:I rather like the idea of a Carnifex in a monocle and a top hat challenging its human prey to fisticuffs.

I forsee a conversion of Ole One Eye with a monocle and top hat forthcoming.

For swarmlord im going to make a scything talon tyrant, and cut the talons and hands off, and glue rocky action figure boxing gloves on the stumps. 4 armed boxer. Gives me reason to sing eye of the tiger when he KOs entire units

In terms of init versus WS, init represents how quickly you can make an attack happen--things such as reach also factor in. WS represents the skill to attack/parry/dodge.

For a carnifex, I see them as really, REALLY slow moving. So yes, the powerfist will swing at the same time as a carnifex, but the marine toting the pfist is going to be MUCH, MUCH faster and more agile. This means that he can more easily get to a position where his sluggish powerfist can strike an undefended spot on the fex (he hits the fex on a 3+ versus the fex's 4+). However, if the fex gets the charge on him, the momentum of the charge will trample the marine underfoot before the marine can bring his ponderous powerfist to bear. (living battering ram +2 init.)

In terms of balance, I think that many of the upgrades are all garbage on the fex thanks to poorly designed point costs. For example, 2 sets of scthing talons, on the charge, give you 3.75 expected hits on a 4+ (42.6 points per hit). For a points INCREASE, you can take crushing claws+scyth talons that give you 4.08 expected hits--.333 more hits that should, according to the above value, cost 14 points. Crushing claws cost more than 14 points. When the fex needs 5's (ws7) or 6's (fast vehicles) the scything talons are actually better than claws (though claws are better versus ws2 or immobile vehicles)

Thus, it all comes down to the fact that when you pay points on a fex for a weapon, you lose the scything talons. Thus, IMO, any option which takes away scything talons should be discounted or free. HVC/stranglethorn should be free, dakka guns 5 points, deathspitters free (and s6 lol), claws 10 points. That way, your 160 point carnifex stays roughly at the same power level, instead of getting punished by losing all their rerolls and PAYING 25 points to do so.

Finally, the fact that you can no longer make a fex with 2 heavy weapons invalidates MANY of the fexes out there, for no real reason either.

As a PS, why is the death spitter now a multishot weapon when it was a single blast, and the HVC a single blast when it was a multishot weapon? Makes no sense!

DevianID wrote:Finally, the fact that you can no longer make a fex with 2 heavy weapons invalidates MANY of the fexes out there, for no real reason either.

Not so. The real reason is that GW doesn't want Nids to be shooty, especially with Carnifexes.

But don't feel bad. Welcome to the club of people whose models needed changing from one edition to the next.

Yes a nid army should run at you going grrr arggg, not sit back in cover and shoot while outflanking or infiltrating with gene stealers, adapt boyz and girls, they changed the game so change your armies, but don't look at something and go it sucks just because what you did once upon a time is no longer effective

We spent a while going over the Tyranid book yesterday, and we've still got a bit more to do today, but here are my general opinions so far:

1. I like this book. I actually like this book quite a bit. For Arby's second attempt at ruining a Codex, he's actually managed to control himself a bit and not landed us with an ultra-boring take on what was once a fun army (Guard). However, like a lot of more recent Codices, this has enough in the way of options to present multiple ways of fighting. I suspect that the Tervigon Explosion that we're seeing now is the new NetDeck Power Build, which is a crying shame, but if we ignore that we've got a well rounded book with a lot of different units and various avenues of play - so that's a good thing.

2. Instinctive Behaviour - They got it right this time! I'm impressed.

3. Psychic Powers - Actually worth taking this time around.

4. A lot of the units feel 'right'. Some are still struggling (give Lictors T5, I beg of you), but beyond that there seems to be an interesting synergy between units - a lack of arbitrariness which I would commonly associate with Arby.

5. I think the fact that Mycetic Spores can actually fight people is hilarious. Kudos to them for finally adding them to the Codex.

So generally I like it.


That said, the book is not without its problems:

1. Chief among these problems is the Carnifex. They invalidated a significant chunk of people's models, they added the strange rule that they must all be armed the same (which makes no sense for the hyper-adaptive race that is the Tyranids), they gave them the same WS as a Guardsman, a Strength of 9 for no fething reason and no access to a 2+ save (WTF?). If it wasn't for their ability to re-roll all attacks w/ScyTals, I'd say that they were a complete wash.

2. Pyrovores are junk.

3. The Venomthrope has BS4 yet has no shooting weapon. Way to go Arby!

4. Special Characters. I'm sorry, but I find the idea of Tyranid special characters abhorrent, especially when they essentially create fluff out of no where (Craftworld Malantai) only so they can destroy it and create a new character (and eventually a new model kit, I presume).

5. This odd aversion to Sv3+ and above, and downright fear of anything above T4. Would it be so hard to make the Lictor T5? The Pyrovore? These are large creatures, why are they the same Toughness as something they no doubt out-mass by 2-3 times (Marines).

6. Absurd costs for big creatures. They're all Land Raider+, which is really bizarre.

7. Needless pointless wargear - Shreddershard Beetles and all those other Grub weapons... they all do a slightly different thing from one another - why are they in there?


I'll have more later.

doubled wrote:Yes a nid army should run at you going grrr arggg, not sit back in cover and shoot while outflanking or infiltrating with gene stealers, adapt boyz and girls, they changed the game so change your armies, but don't look at something and go it sucks just because what you did once upon a time is no longer effective

That was almost a sentence.

HBMC, you make some good points. My issue is that the units all feel balanced at first glance in terms of points and what not, but as you dig deeper we see that this is not the case.

IE, carnifex weapon upgrades make no sense. If you are losing sything talons, you should have a discount on the weapon you buy in its place. HVC/deathspitters/stranglethorn should be free, devourers 5 points, crushing claws 10 points. As is now, only the stock fex is cheap enough to justify multiples of, and if nothing else GW's business policy should encourage people to buy 9 carnifexes in a regular army list.

As for the big critters, why are they t6? Makes no sense! It doesn't take much math to demonstrate that t6 w4 equates roughly to a demonically possessed rhino in terms of survivability. A t6 w6 equates to roughly demonically possessed armor 12. Its a frigging shame the gigantic bio tanks are about as tough as other armies cheap transports.

I also second HBMC that there is lots of useless wargear/special rules in the book, while other wargear is simply left out. (Assault grenades on stealers?)

Finally, when looking at how a tyranid army plays, there is huge disparities between units and the points limit on the game. What I mean is this--in 1850 a trygon is not such a big deal for most people to kill. However, in 1000 points the trygon gets MUCH better and there is much less shooting that can put it down quickly, and you can easily get 3 in the 1k list to boot!

Also, if you want to have a chance at vehicles, you simply must get hive guard and zoanthropes. There is simply no other units in the book with good anti tank shooting. However, you max out at three units no matter what size game you play, giving you greatly diminishing anti tank returns as the game scales up in points.

1. Chief among these problems is the Carnifex. They invalidated a significant chunk of people's models, they added the strange rule that they must all be armed the same (which makes no sense for the hyper-adaptive race that is the Tyranids), they gave them the same WS as a Guardsman, a Strength of 9 for no fething reason and no access to a 2+ save (WTF?). If it wasn't for their ability to re-roll all attacks w/ScyTals, I'd say that they were a complete wash.

WS 3 makes sense. Largely because it WILL telegraph every single fething attack. Nobody gets this. That thing is not going to surprise you. If it hits you you saw it coming. The rule that they must all be armed the same is kick ass, so you dont have nob biker carnifex brood bs. Same for 2+ save, that was complete garbage. I do think they are slightly overpriced though, drop all guns by 5 points and the model to 140 base or so and youd have a fair unit.
I play eldar, I have no sympathy for nids losing out with the new codex and having lots of their stuff invalidated in 5th. With eldar its mech up or lose.

4. Special Characters. I'm sorry, but I find the idea of Tyranid special characters abhorrent, especially when they essentially create fluff out of no where (Craftworld Malantai) only so they can destroy it and create a new character (and eventually a new model kit, I presume).

Special characters for nids are great, and I love the way they did some of them. Either as being reabsorbed or mysteriously disappearing. oh noes, new fluff.

The one thing I agree with on complaints about the Fex is the lack of 2+ armor upgrades. Ever since the olden days, Fexes were the one thing that compared to Terminator armor. Now not only are there lots of options equal to Terminator armor (or better) but Carnifexes aren't even one of them!