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Made in us
Angry Chaos Agitator






Dallas, TX

Units who's S isn't high enough to damage AV10, but could have hurt the techmarine. That's the only advantage I can think of.
   
Made in us
Doc Brown






The techy has to pile in and you can't direct melee attacks against guns in an artillery unit if memory serves. This means having the techy a level higher than the gun does...nothing, nothing at all.

It's a glass cannon, plain an simple. AV10 isn't hard to drop and the techy only has to fail a single armor save. The unit is always a single failed cover/armor away from losing the entire reason you took it. It has some hitting power, but the ease with which it can be destroyed means facing any army that it's threatening against it will likely have to make its' points back in a single shooting phase if it even gets to fire.

 
   
Made in us
Monstrous Master Moulder




Sacramento, CA

Mastershake wrote:The techy has to pile in and you can't direct melee attacks against guns in an artillery unit if memory serves. This means having the techy a level higher than the gun does...nothing, nothing at all.
Right. All attacks go to the crew even if somehow only gun models are engaged, and the crew has to come join in when you charge the gun anyway.

Agitator noster fulminis percussus est 
   
Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Recently had more experience against a buddy's army with 2 TFCs and learned some new lessons:

1. The first TFC is pretty easy to silence (by killing the gun). The second one in the same army is much harder, just because of economy of scale and needing those shots elsewhere. The tech marine is pretty much impossible to kill with long-range shooting, so it conserves KPs in annihilation missions.

2. It's not an effective anti-tank gun. Even against AR11 transports with the str6 ammo, half the shots scatter off, then half the shots fail to do damage, and if there's smoke or a cover save, you're looking at a really small chance of doing anything. It would be worse against AR12 Eldar or Tau skimmer mech.
Therefore, the TFC is weaker against all-mech, since there are no infantry on the table to shoot at. Dozer blades (I'm liking these more and more) completely nerf the underground shot.

3. The range is really long--really no place to hide on a standard-size table. This was a new experience for me, since I'm used to being able to run to safety against marine armies.

The weakness against mech makes me dubious about the TFC in an all-comers army.

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Arlington, VA

Mech (especially AV12) = Tremor shots.

Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.

 
   
Made in us
Doc Brown






Yes, as stated tremor shots can work unless...You're playing against IG (Why would I move when I can just kill you from here) , or a list packing on the dozer blades. Even then a 1/6 chance to immobilize isn't exactly earth shattering levels of effectiveness.

 
   
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Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Arlington, VA

Mastershake wrote:Yes, as stated tremor shots can work unless...You're playing against IG (Why would I move when I can just kill you from here) , or a list packing on the dozer blades. Even then a 1/6 chance to immobilize isn't exactly earth shattering levels of effectiveness.


Very good points. However, it does a great job of hurting anything that falls out of a transport in a nice tight clump. So if you have anti-mech from other units, it can still be effective. The tremor shell also works great against Mech Eldar ("Oh... if you want that cover save you have a 1/6 chance of wrecking yourself..."

Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.

 
   
Made in us
Fresh-Faced New User




Artillery seem a little too squishy to me. All you need is one glancing hit on the gun and they auto-destroy.
   
Made in ca
Decrepit Dakkanaut





They're essentially a T7 W1 model that can't fight in close combat.
   
Made in us
The Conquerer






Waiting for my shill money from Spiral Arm Studios

for only 100 pts the thunderfire cannon is a decent choice, the problem is it competes with other awsome units for HS slots

at low point games it is highly effective.

a 1500 point list could easily have 3 of them. 12 blast templates can absolutly decimate a squad a turn.

the subterranian detonation can be used pretty well against eldar "flying circuses"(or any bike/jet bike heavy army and skimmers) by forcing dangerous terrian tests if they move and threatining them with assault troops if they don't.

armys that rely heavily on cover hate Tcannons. the armys that do are orks, nids and guard. i am pretty sure the airburst will ignore their basic armor and wound them on nothing worse then a 4+

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Gornall wrote:
Mastershake wrote:Yes, as stated tremor shots can work unless...You're playing against IG (Why would I move when I can just kill you from here) , or a list packing on the dozer blades. Even then a 1/6 chance to immobilize isn't exactly earth shattering levels of effectiveness.


Very good points. However, it does a great job of hurting anything that falls out of a transport in a nice tight clump. So if you have anti-mech from other units, it can still be effective. The tremor shell also works great against Mech Eldar ("Oh... if you want that cover save you have a 1/6 chance of wrecking yourself..."


It's a lot of fun against Jump Infantry too.

Drink deeply and lustily from the foamy draught of evil.
W: 1.756 Quadrillion L: 0 D: 2
Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in ro
Regular Dakkanaut



Romania

I love thundrfire cannon,though you are right ,it can be destroyed 1st round.put on a vindicator,put on a Dred in drop pod,and you should get your opponent elsewhere for a turn or 2

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Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Arlington, VA

Monster Rain wrote:
Gornall wrote:
Mastershake wrote:Yes, as stated tremor shots can work unless...You're playing against IG (Why would I move when I can just kill you from here) , or a list packing on the dozer blades. Even then a 1/6 chance to immobilize isn't exactly earth shattering levels of effectiveness.


Very good points. However, it does a great job of hurting anything that falls out of a transport in a nice tight clump. So if you have anti-mech from other units, it can still be effective. The tremor shell also works great against Mech Eldar ("Oh... if you want that cover save you have a 1/6 chance of wrecking yourself..."


It's a lot of fun against Jump Infantry too.


It also single-handedly gives the finger to bikes. "No turbo-boost for you!"

But yeah, it's a fun little thing to use in friendly or one-off games, but I haven't found a place for it in my all-comers list. YMMV though.

Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.

 
   
Made in us
Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







Raxmei wrote:
Demogerg wrote:Dirty trick: if your FLGS has multi-level terrain pieces you can put the marine on the top level of the building, and the gun on the level just below him. If an enemy wishes to assualt they will need a full 6" run to get past the gun, then up a level to get to the techmarine.
Units attempting to assault artillery units are allowed to charge the gun model. I don't see how deploying in this manner helps you.


Incorrect, when assaulting artillery you ignore the gun for all purposes with the actual moves. They would need to go past the gun to the marine for a successful charge, however, they cannot move within 1" of the gun during their normal move in the movement phase (or run move with fleet in the shooting phase) and with a 2 level gap to go up they would need a full 6" on the dice roll, and already be directly underneath the marine.

Is a dirty trick, I play space wolves so I don't do it, I don't even have a thunderfire. I do know a couple people who do this though, and it makes thunderfires a bit more durable.

THE HORUS HERESY: Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age. Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww! Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery. Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww! Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so. Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so. Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway. Russ: You're about to die, cyclops! Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww! Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus. Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything? Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book. Russ: Sigh. Let's go. Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers! Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin? Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir. Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me? Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me! *enter Emprah* Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter! Horus: What about the Lion? Emprah: Never liked her. Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus* Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo? Jonson: I did nothing! Guilliman: I did more nothing that you! Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless! Guilliman: Have you read my book? Dorn: No one likes that book. Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad. Dorn: I guess not. Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.
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Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Wait a minute. So they're one unit for the purposes of cover, but not one unit for the purposes of assault? How does that work?

Anyway I'm looking at page 55 and it says "move the assaulting models in base contact with the crew and guns as normal." Why would it tell you to move into contact with guns if you're supposed to ignore the guns?

This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/02/04 22:24:24


"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

Yeah but you can only hit the crew in assault.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Are you sure about that? It looks to me like the artillery rules on page 55 say to treat an assault on a TFC the same as any other assault involving both vehicles and infantry: you assault both by making base contact, you can allocate on both according to normal rules of allocation, then in subsequent rounds you scrum away from the vehicle and ignore it (assuming the crew survives).

I'm going to have to ask for a page reference before I buy that you can't assault the gun just as you would assault any other vehicle.

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in us
Nurgle Predator Driver with an Infestation







It works great!!!
Considering it only costs 100 pts and comes with a techmarine, who is pretty killy himself.

 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

Flavius Infernus wrote:Are you sure about that? It looks to me like the artillery rules on page 55 say to treat an assault on a TFC the same as any other assault involving both vehicles and infantry: you assault both by making base contact, you can allocate on both according to normal rules of allocation, then in subsequent rounds you scrum away from the vehicle and ignore it (assuming the crew survives).

I'm going to have to ask for a page reference before I buy that you can't assault the gun just as you would assault any other vehicle.


Gonna have to ask you to read the rest of the paragraph, ya know, that part that says "All engaged enemies roll to hit against the crew (even if they are only engaged with the guns)."

By placing your crew 2" back, away from the artillery piece, you are possibly denying assaults that can't make it around the gun since all hits are rolled vs. the crew, if there's no assaultable crew, there're no hits... At least that's the way I understan what people have been saying about placing the gun on a separate floor of a building from the gun.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Scarred Ultramarine Tyrannic War Veteran





Arlington, VA

"Even if they are only engaged with the guns" tells me that hitting the gun with the assault move is enough.

Check out my blog for bat reps and pics of my Ultramarine Honorguard (Counts as GK) Army!
Howlingmoon wrote:Good on you for finally realizing the scum that is tournament players, Warhammer would really be better off if those mongrels all left to play Warmachine with the rest of the anti-social miscreants.
combatmedic wrote:Im sure the only reason Japan lost WW2 was because the US failed disclose beforehand they had Tactical Nuke special rule.

 
   
Made in us
Huge Hierodule





Louisiana

You are also forgetting that the 'crew' is part of the assaulted artillery unit, thus the techmarine gunner (in this case) is forced to pile-in 6", which is more than the 2" needed to be "assaultable".

Personally i prefer just to shoot the damn things with a spodded group of 20 gaunts/devourers. 60 shots, s4, one is bound to roll a 6 and take out the fething cannon. I can deal with the techie later.

Been out of the game for awhile, trying to find time to get back into it. 
   
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Monstrous Master Moulder




Sacramento, CA

Demogerg wrote:Incorrect, when assaulting artillery you ignore the gun for all purposes with the actual moves. They would need to go past the gun to the marine for a successful charge, however, they cannot move within 1" of the gun during their normal move in the movement phase (or run move with fleet in the shooting phase) and with a 2 level gap to go up they would need a full 6" on the dice roll, and already be directly underneath the marine.
I am quite certain you're wrong. When you make the assault move you move into contact with crew and guns, and it's only after the assault move that you ignore the gun models. The rules even provide for what happens when assaulters are only engaged with gun models (their attacks still go to the crew).

agnosto wrote:Gonna have to ask you to read the rest of the paragraph, ya know, that part that says "All engaged enemies roll to hit against the crew (even if they are only engaged with the guns)."

By placing your crew 2" back, away from the artillery piece, you are possibly denying assaults that can't make it around the gun since all hits are rolled vs. the crew, if there's no assaultable crew, there're no hits... At least that's the way I understan what people have been saying about placing the gun on a separate floor of a building from the gun.
You're reading that backwards. The concept of the close combat kill zone no longer exists in 5th edition and it is now quite possible to remove unengaged models as casualties. The rules for assaulting artillery tell you that you can (and indeed must) attack the crew even if only gun models are engaged.

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Made in us
Decrepit Dakkanaut






Mesopotamia. The Kingdom Where we Secretly Reign.

Demogerg wrote:
Incorrect, when assaulting artillery you ignore the gun for all purposes with the actual moves. They would need to go past the gun to the marine for a successful charge, however, they cannot move within 1" of the gun during their normal move in the movement phase (or run move with fleet in the shooting phase) and with a 2 level gap to go up they would need a full 6" on the dice roll, and already be directly underneath the marine.


Just read page 55 in the BRB, man. None of what you're saying is correct. When you assault the gun, the Techmarine has to pile in 6, and is compelled by the rules to get into base contact with the assaulting models. Whoever plays it in the way you are describing is dead wrong.

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Haters gon' hate. 
   
Made in us
Fixture of Dakka





Runnin up on ya.

Monster Rain wrote:

Just read page 55 in the BRB, man. None of what you're saying is correct. When you assault the gun, the Techmarine has to pile in 6, and is compelled by the rules to get into base contact with the assaulting models. Whoever plays it in the way you are describing is dead wrong.


I'm getting too old to relearn the game every time GW wants to make more money by releasing new rules.

Thanks for clearing it up.

Six mistakes mankind keeps making century after century: Believing that personal gain is made by crushing others; Worrying about things that cannot be changed or corrected; Insisting that a thing is impossible because we cannot accomplish it; Refusing to set aside trivial preferences; Neglecting development and refinement of the mind; Attempting to compel others to believe and live as we do 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

I love my Thunderfire Cannon and last week I placed second at an RTT with a Thunderfire Cannon.

The reason to take one is the very existence of Deamon and Tyranid Armies. It is a huge force multiplier against those armies.

Against Heavy Mech, not so much, that is sure. But a good opponent with a heavy mech army may just ignore it, and the SM has other tools to pop tanks.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
Made in us
Terminator with Assault Cannon





I use two Thunderfires in 2,000 points. They consistently perform well and most opponents seem *very* scared of them. Those that aren't soon feel the pain-- in one tournament game, I killed an entire squad of Long Fangs with a single Thunderfire volley, as the opponent had assumed that the Thunderfire was bad against MEQs and deployed his unit base-to-base for maximum cover saves!
   
Made in us
Plastictrees






Salem, MA

Mahu wrote:I love my Thunderfire Cannon and last week I placed second at an RTT with a Thunderfire Cannon.

The reason to take one is the very existence of Deamon and Tyranid Armies. It is a huge force multiplier against those armies.

Against Heavy Mech, not so much, that is sure. But a good opponent with a heavy mech army may just ignore it, and the SM has other tools to pop tanks.


How does it compare with a whirlwind?

I take a whirlwind in my tournament armies, not necessarily because it kills so much (not usually), but more that it can reach things the rest of my army can't with indirect fire, can move and shoot and is more durable and cheaper. Every once in awhile it gets a lucky shot and takes out a swath of guardsmen with an incendiary shot, and in conjunction with Telion sometimes you can create pinning and morale headaches for your opponent, but more often it draws fire and functions as a deterrent to clumping.

But maybe you're talking about the seismic shot slowing down enemy assault units? Does that really produce reliable results?

"The complete or partial destruction of the enemy must be regarded as the sole object of all engagements.... Direct annihilation of the enemy's forces must always be the dominant consideration." Karl von Clausewitz 
   
Made in us
Longtime Dakkanaut





Orlando, Florida

How does it compare with a whirlwind?

I take a whirlwind in my tournament armies, not necessarily because it kills so much (not usually), but more that it can reach things the rest of my army can't with indirect fire, can move and shoot and is more durable and cheaper. Every once in awhile it gets a lucky shot and takes out a swath of guardsmen with an incendiary shot, and in conjunction with Telion sometimes you can create pinning and morale headaches for your opponent, but more often it draws fire and functions as a deterrent to clumping.

But maybe you're talking about the seismic shot slowing down enemy assault units? Does that really produce reliable results?


I would rate it above the Whirlwind because you get a techmarine, bolster defenses, and a more flexible gun for only 15 points more.

To me it is more about the "ignore cover" shot then anything else. Combinations such as hitting a Blood Letter squad in cover whilst Null Zone is in effect, hitting IG in cover and denying them the ability to go to ground, and it start to show it's worth. Most things you hit with the ignore cover shot are the things who have worst saves then the cover they are in.

I prefer the multiple small blasts because even if a unit is spread out, moderate scatter can still hit a few people. I would say that I have been getting a reliable 10 to 12 hits per shooting phase every time it fires.

Seismic shot I use the least. I play Vulkan Marnies, I have other ways to take out tanks.

Current Armies: Blood Angels, Imperial Guard (40k), Skorne, Retribution (Warmachine), Vampire Counts (Fantasy)

 
   
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Wolf Guard Bodyguard in Terminator Armor







Lets say your opponent deep-struck a set of 5 termies in a bad position for you, but only got to run 1" to spread out...

with a whirlwind you get 5 hits, 4 wounds, maybe 1 dead termy

with a thunderfire you get ~3 hits from each blast, 12 hits, 10 wounds, 1 maybe 2 dead termies.

THE HORUS HERESY: Emprah: Hours, go reconquer the galaxy so there can be a new golden age. Horus: But I should be Emprah, bawwwwww! Emprah: Magnus, stop it with the sorcery. Magnus: But I know what's best, bawwwwww! Emprah: Horus, tell Russ to bring Magnus to me because I said so. Horus: Emprah wants you to kill Magnus because he said so. Russ: Fine. Emprah's always right. Plus Ole Red has already been denounced as a traitor and I never liked him anyway. Russ: You're about to die, cyclops! Magnus: O noes! Tzeentch, I choose you! Bawwwww! Russ: Ah well. Now to go kill Horus. Russ: Rowboat, how have you not been doing anything? Guilliman: . . . I've been writing a book. Russ: Sigh. Let's go. Guilliman: And I fought the Word Bearers! Horus: Oh shi--Spess Puppies a'comin? Abbadon: And the Ultramarines, sir. Horus: Who? Anyway, this looks bad. *enter Sanguinis* What are you doing here? Come to join me? Sanguinius: *throws self on Horus's power claws* Alas, I am undone! When you play Castlevania, remember me! *enter Emprah* Emprah: Horus! So my favorite son killed my favorite daughter! Horus: What about the Lion? Emprah: Never liked her. Horus: No one does. Now prepare to die! *mortally wounds Emprah*Emprah: Au contraire, you dick. *kills Horus* Dorn: Okay, now I just plug this into this and . . . okay, it works! Emprah? Hellooooo? Jonson: I did nothing! Guilliman: I did more nothing that you! Jonson: Nuh-uh. I was the most worthless! Guilliman: Have you read my book? Dorn: No one likes that book. Khan: C'mon guys. It's not that bad. Dorn: I guess not. Russ: You all suck. Ima go bring the Emprah back to life.
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Rotting Sorcerer of Nurgle





Who deepstrikes assault terminators with any seriousness?

If it's tactical termies, they should be shooting up the WW or TFC.

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There was an important job to be done and Everybody was sure that Somebody would do it.
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