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Clthomps wrote:

Can someone definitively say that the cartoons weren't white? I bet the (white) creators could--and they have not. This is a pathetic thing to get angry about.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BBda7b9tRdk&feature=player_embedded

Can you show me an example of a movie were Hollywood changed a main character to be Asian, Black, or Native? Make sure you find an example were they don't change a villain just so whitey can stomp Mr. Minority.

So your telling be that you wouldn't be angry if you had a 8 year old Native american child who grew up watching Avatar, and was really excited to see the movie, but then found out that the only show with a positive representation of your culture has been striped for marketing?

Of what about an asian child? You go to watch the movie and you see an amazing culture that shadows your own, but alas white people are there instead of someone you can relate to, and they are doing it better. Ok lets try to find an Asian role model.... searching..... searching... Oh theres an Asian boy! Wait hes whinny, aggressive, and everyone hates him (even his own crew)...



/quote]

Catwoman.
The new Karate Kid

Your quote got messed up. But in response Catwoman was a throwback to the 1970s Batman with Eartha Kit.




As for the New Karate Kid wasn't the Hero a White Woman?

Wouldn't that just make Eartha Kit the example you're looking for, then?

And Catwoman is technically a villain. =D And edited for more: when they cast Eartha Kitt in the 70s Batman, they also stopped the traditional Batman/Catwoman romance, something which (as far as I can remember) only happened specifically for those episodes.


Kung Fu Kid's a pretty good example, but it's my understanding is that they are not meant to be exactly the same characters - it looks like they will have different names, for instance, and the new movie will have a plot that takes place in China.

They didn't cast Italians for Mario and Luigi in their feature film, and who can say that it still wasn't a great movie?


Also, I am Legend.

I am Legend is a good example. So while it has been brought to my attention a couple exceptions, would anyone debate the ratio of Whitewashing to Minoritywashing is not skewed at least 20:1?

Clthomps wrote:Well seeing as you are eight to ten, I will chalk this one up to you not having enough world experience to make a valid judgement on racism. Maybe if you ask your parents about what children's shows of there generation were like and contrast them to Avatar you might get a feeling of why there IS a controversy.

Pretty weak.

@llamadolly: You need to learn about connotative meaning. There is an entire world your missing out on by limiting yourself to literal definitions.

llamadolly wrote:You don't think it's disconcerting at all that the casting call for the main three heroic characters are all white children, while the rest of the Waterbending tribe was primarily cast with Inuits from Greenland, or that the Fire Nation has been cast almost exclusively with actors of color?

No.

llamadolly wrote:I would like my children to grow up in a world where they get to see characters of all colors and cultures as the heroes of their stories, and where they get to see actors of all colors and cultures representing those characters. Modern America and the current generation of parents/almost parents has the best chance ever to make this happen. Shouldn't we be fighting for it?

No. It's pretty presumptuous to believe that people should fight for an outcome that you think is desirable. Obviously, I can do nothing to limit your ability to pursue whatever end you desire but I won't be strongarmed by false grand metaphors ("people of color") or other tactics into doing so or agreeing that doing so is either necessary or desirable. Racebending is an attempt to assert a narrative, to sieze control of a certain historical rhetoric for ideological purposes that I find offensively trivial in this case.

Well, touche. I would've thought most people would see more racial diversity in the media as a good thing. If you don't, then I doubt there's much I'd be able to do to change your mind.


And I guess I'm unaware of a "connotation" of controversy that would work in the context of your sentence. You may think that the controversy is invalid, but that doesn't make it not exist. The very disagreement that we're having is proof of the existence of the controversy. This is the controversy - that I (and people who feel the way that I do) think there is a problem, and that you (and people who feel the way that you do) think there isn't.

Edit: Unless, of course, you're using "controversy" as a synonym for "problem," in which case... well, no. Because it isn't.

The word "controversy" connotes importance. For example, if we were going for lunch and couldn't agree on which restaurant we would hardly call it a "controversy" although the literal definition fits. Racebending and related groups (yes, I did take the time to read their material) is using the word "controversy" to tout their cause as more significant than it currently is. This is a pretty standard tactic. (Think "Culture War.")

More diversity in the media for the sake of more diversity in the media is a best amoral and at worst demeaning. Consider the idea that HK films should reconsider casting Asian actors, especially in any scene that involved ANY kind of Western material culture, to better reflect their cosmopolitan history and society.

Manchu wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Well seeing as you are eight to ten, I will chalk this one up to you not having enough world experience to make a valid judgement on racism. Maybe if you ask your parents about what children's shows of there generation were like and contrast them to Avatar you might get a feeling of why there IS a controversy.

Pretty weak.

Yes, that response is. Adult generally provide facts and examples, to back up their arguments, this is called DEBATE.

No. It's pretty presumptuous to believe that people should fight for an outcome that you think is desirable. Obviously, I can do nothing to limit your ability to pursue whatever end you desire but I won't be strongarmed by false grand metaphors ("people of color") or other tactics into doing so or agreeing that doing so is either necessary or desirable. Racebending is an attempt to assert a narrative, to sieze control of a certain historical rhetoric for ideological purposes that I find offensively trivial in this case.

I find this statement to be in direct conflict with your beliefs as stated on the religious forum, care to elaborate as to which you really believe?

Clthomps wrote:Yes, that response is. Adult generally provide facts and examples, to back up their arguments, this is called DEBATE.

"NO U!" Seriously?

Clthomps wrote:

No. It's pretty presumptuous to believe that people should fight for an outcome that you think is desirable. Obviously, I can do nothing to limit your ability to pursue whatever end you desire but I won't be strongarmed by false grand metaphors ("people of color") or other tactics into doing so or agreeing that doing so is either necessary or desirable. Racebending is an attempt to assert a narrative, to sieze control of a certain historical rhetoric for ideological purposes that I find offensively trivial in this case.

I find this statement to be in direct conflict with your beliefs as stated on the religious forum, care to elaborate as to which you really believe?

You will have to point out what you perceive to be the inconsistency. (I don't need specific quotations unless you're going to insist that I've said/implied something that I have not.)

Manchu wrote:Can someone definitively say that the cartoons weren't white? I bet the (white) creators could--and they have not.

Sorry, I missed this particular comment before.

http://www.racebending.com/v3/featured/the-last-airbender-primer/#reaction

I would say that picture of Aang, drawn by the co-creator, has him looking very intentionally Asian.

As I have already pointed out, the characters can almost uniformly be seen as either white or Asian (some do not strike me as Asian at all, actually, name aside--Ty Lee and Toph are examples). They are drawn in an ambiguous way. Even if I were to agree that this picture portrays Aang as specifically Asian it would be one example in the face of many thousands of others.

I also saw this blog entry earlier. I was intrigued by the claim that the characters were based off of actual Asians. I was not surprised, however, to see this claim uncited.

llamadolly wrote:I would like my children to grow up in a world where they get to see characters of all colors and cultures as the heroes of their stories, and where they get to see actors of all colors and cultures representing those characters.

Fair enough, I suppose. Not sure about the USA, but here in the UK non-white racial minorities make up around 14% of the population - more than 14% of actors used are non-white, certainly on the BBC. One could argue that such minorities are over-represented. Not everyone is in favour of diversity for the sake of it, and you shouldn't expect everyone to conform to your world-view.

Not that I disapprove of non-white actors, you understand - just merely urging caution. Our government seems to be trying to portray Britain as a happy, smiling, rainbow nation of liberal Guardian-readers. If the people who ran the media ever stepped outside of London they would know that this is most definitely not the case.

Before we go any farther, let me make it clear that I do not oppose non-white actors.

My only point is that the characters of Avatar the animated series are not OBVIOUSLY Asian so that not casting Asians in their roles is some sort of travesty or conspiracy.

@Albatross: You know we get East Enders over here, although we're a few years's back. My parents watch it every week. (We only get two episodes a week.) Lol at Ms. Brahms aging so poorly.

Well, yeah - wanting to hire more non-white actors just because you want to see more of them on TV seems a little condescending to me. Surely the best actor should get the job, regardless of skin-colour? That was my point about not just having diversity for the sake of it.

Manchu wrote:As I have already pointed out, the characters can almost uniformly be seen as either white or Asian (some do not strike me as Asian at all, actually, name aside--Ty Lee and Toph are examples). They are drawn in an ambiguous way. Even if I were to agree that this picture portrays Aang as specifically Asian it would be one example in the face of many thousands of others.

I also saw this blog entry earlier. I was intrigued by the claim that the characters were based off of actual Asians. I was not surprised, however, to see this claim uncited.

It wasn't cited there, which was bad form on the website's part. But the source is here: http://www.racebending.com/v3/background/statement-from-dao-le-animatic-editor/, in a statement from the Animatic Director of the original series.

My only point is that the characters of Avatar the animated series are not OBVIOUSLY Asian so that not casting Asians in their roles is some sort of travesty or conspiracy.

That was my point about not just having diversity for the sake of it.

Those of us upset that Airbender was cast with white actors aren't angry because we want it to be diverse just for the sake of diversity, though, and my earlier remarks may not have made that clear. This is a show that emphasizes minority cultures. There are lots and lots of people who clearly believe that the characters of Avatar are obviously Asian. The characters are clearly from Inuit, Chinese, Japanese, and Tibetan cultures, and to cast them with white non-minority actors is insensitive.

Manchu wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Yes, that response is. Adult generally provide facts and examples, to back up their arguments, this is called DEBATE.

"NO U!" Seriously?

What does that mean? Really can we please keep this conversation to sentences.

I find this statement to be in direct conflict with your beliefs as stated on the religious forum, care to elaborate as to which you really believe?

You will have to point out what you perceive to be the inconsistency. (I don't need specific quotations unless you're going to insist that I've said/implied something that I have not.)

Thanks for tracking down the quote. But it doesn't support the idea that any of the main characters are specifically Asian.

llamadolly wrote:This is a show that emphasizes minority cultures. There are lots and lots of people who clearly believe that the characters of Avatar are obviously Asian. The characters are clearly from Inuit, Chinese, Japanese, and Tibetan cultures, and to cast them with white non-minority actors is insensitive.

The characters are from made up cultures. The cultures were made up by white people who were influenced by Asian cultures. The show does not emphasize "minority culture" in any meaningful sense. It uses extremely generic images to create a sense of reality. This is done with medieval European images all the time but as anyone who knows about Medieval culture will tell you fidelity to the truth is not a priority. I spent my undergraduate studying Korean and Mandarin language and pre-modern and modern East Asian history. The use of Chinese characters, the appearance of East Asian martial arts (or chop sticks for that matter!), the mention of South Asian religio-philosophical concepts in Avatar were all shallow glimpses at best. The obvious purpose was to discard the usual set of Western-centric fantasy tropes (outwardly, at least) for an Eastern-inspired set.

Racebending is a mixed-up set of ideas. For example, does it make anyone upset that (apparently obviously) East Asian Fire Nation characters are being portrayed by South Asians?


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Clthomps wrote:What does that mean? Really can we please keep this conversation to sentences.

It means that your statements have been so ironic within their own context as to elicit disbelief.

How about the whole grand metaphors thing? "...people of color..." or "...Children of Israel..." what makes one different from the other?

Children of Israel is a pretty specific term referring explicitly to the Jews. It is in no sense a metaphor. "People of Color" is an ideological catch-all that the Racebending movement appears to use to juxtapose their own claims in line with the wider history of racial tension in the US and, I believe, ultimately to the moral legitimacy of the Civil Rights Movement, while demarcating a line between white and (the generic, meaningless, and paradoxically white-centric category of) everyone else.

Clthomps wrote:Also on a side note requesting citations from people who have given plenty, and then not providing citations of your own makes you hypocritical.

What exactly would you like me to cite?

So are you a 6-12 year old genius? or did you lie earlier to gain some sort of sympathy or lend credit to your opinions.

Clthomps wrote:So are you a 6-12 year old genius? or did you lie earlier to gain some sort of sympathy or lend credit to your opinions.

I am 25 years old. I have no idea where you are getting these ages. I thought you were merely trying to insult me but now you seem somewhat sincere.

What exactly would you like me to cite?

How about this:

Children of Israel is a pretty specific term referring explicitly to the Jews. It is in no sense a metaphor. "People of Color" is an ideological catch-all that the Racebending movement appears to use to juxtapose their own claims in line with the wider history of racial tension in the US and, I believe, ultimately to the moral legitimacy of the Civil Rights Movement, while demarcating a line between white and (the generic, meaningless, and paradoxically white-centric category of) everyone else

I am 25 years old. I have no idea where you are getting these ages. I thought you were merely trying to insult me but now you seem somewhat sincere.

This quote right here:

And am in the target audience for Avatar.

Target Demographic for Avatar is 6-12 Year olds.

How exactly is he supposed to cite his own opinions?

Put a number in superscript that says "this post"?

Clthomps wrote:Target Demographic for Avatar is 6-12 Year olds.

The whole quotation is right here:

Manchu wrote:

Clthomps wrote:If you can't find reasons people would be upset, then you are living in the middle of white bread america, are upper middle class, and oblivious.

And am in the target audience for Avatar. Bravo. (Although I do appreciate your attempt to conflate being white with being stupid.)

How you missed that I was referring to what you had just said--especially when I quoted it-- about "living in the middle of white bread america," being "upper middle class, and oblivious" is truly puzzling.

As for a citation regarding the Children of Israel, look up the term Israelite in any reference book. Use wikipedia even: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Israelites

As for citing my own opinions: the source is this thread, last accessed 02/07/10.

Manchu wrote:

Clthomps wrote:Target Demographic for Avatar is 6-12 Year olds.

The whole quotation is right here:

Manchu wrote:

Clthomps wrote:If you can't find reasons people would be upset, then you are living in the middle of white bread america, are upper middle class, and oblivious.

And am in the target audience for Avatar. Bravo. (Although I do appreciate your attempt to conflate being white with being stupid.)

How you missed that I was referring to what you had just said--especially when I quoted it-- about "living in the middle of white bread america," being "upper middle class, and oblivious" is truly puzzling.


As for citing my own opinions: the source is this thread, last accessed 02/07/10.

How does "And I am in the target audience for Avatar," not directly equal the YOU are: a 6-12 year old boy... the target demographic?




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As for :

look up the term Israelite in any reference book

Last time i checked you could look up colored person too.

dictionary.com wrote:colored person
noun
a United States term for Blacks that is now considered offensive

Clthomps wrote:How does "And I am in the target audience for Avatar," not directly equal the YOU are: a 6-12 year old boy... the target demographic?

Okay, we're done.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Person_of_color

People of color is preferred to both non-white and minority

Oh yea and the demographic data is from Nielsen Media Research.

Wikipedia wrote:Furthermore, the term people of color has been embraced and used to replace the term minority because the term minority implies inferiority and disfranchisement.[10]

10. ^ "Real Definitions". Colours of Resistance. http://colours.mahost.org/faq/definitions.html. Retrieved 2008-03-21.

Colours of Resistance wrote:Colours of Resistance (COR) is a grassroots network of people who consciously work to develop anti-racist, multiracial politics in the movement against global capitalism. We are committed to helping build an anti-racist, anti-imperialist, multiracial, feminist, queer and trans liberationist, anti-authoritarian movement against global capitalism.

This is why you can't cite Wikipedia when you write papers, kids.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Wikipedia wrote:Furthermore, the term people of color has been embraced and used to replace the term minority because the term minority implies inferiority and disfranchisement.[10]

10. ^ "Real Definitions". Colours of Resistance. http://colours.mahost.org/faq/definitions.html. Retrieved 2008-03-21.

Colours of Resistance wrote:Colours of Resistance (COR) is a grassroots network of people who consciously work to develop anti-racist, multiracial politics in the movement against global capitalism. We are committed to helping build an anti-racist, anti-imperialist, multiracial, feminist, queer and trans liberationist, anti-authoritarian movement against global capitalism.

This is why you can't cite Wikipedia when you write papers, kids.

ROFL, Yea wiki is a funny beast that way, I once read a wiki article about a ninja turtle raping a coed.... Guess I shouldn't have quoted wiki .

I wonder if it's simply a lot easier to get Norse looking extras than it is to get Inuit extras.


Meanwhile, it's important to remember that a lot of these issues need to be considered in terms of film as a whole. It isn't a problem for a single film to chage the race of a single actor, or to swap out one origin non-Western culture for a Western one - the problem is when lots of films do something similar.

Even when there is an industry wide problem, it's important to remember that it doesn't necesarily make an individual film bad. But just because it doesn't make an individual film bad, it doesn't mean the issue can't be discussed as part of a greater trend.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Colours of Resistance wrote:Colours of Resistance (COR) is a grassroots network of people who consciously work to develop anti-racist, multiracial politics in the movement against global capitalism. We are committed to helping build an anti-racist, anti-imperialist, multiracial, feminist, queer and trans liberationist, anti-authoritarian movement against global capitalism.

Gyaargh, just had flashbacks to the late 90s. God I hate student politics.