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I think people need to look to historical means of digging the world out of the hole we are in at the moment. Germany has done it twice in living memory, the first time going from ruined shell to world superpower. Get the unemployed rounded up onto a bus, drive them out into the countryside and give them a spade and get them digging that new road system, or building that new dam.

May as well get something back for the millions/billions spent on welfare, plus it will give some people cause to actually go out and look for a job.

And I think America could do very well from getting business out of politics.

As for voter stupidity/etc, it is possible to remain smart, yet be uninformed, to retain your IQ but be utterly clueless about how the world works. I think this is perhaps fast becoming the norm in todays world. People are being "educated" in how to perform specific functions within society and being given very shoddy teaching on the wider world. The culture and society itself is moving away from educating and informing, and more to peddling the instant gratification and mindless crud that it appears that so many people wish to wipe their minds with, rather than deal with the real world.

I can't think of any way off the top of my head that people will change without radical alterations to our society at every level, which will never happen because too many people (with all the money, and hence influence) have too much vested in the status quo.

This is especially true in the 2 party system of the US. People seem to have lost much of their ability to think for themsleves, which does not help when they are then indoctrinated into the red vs blue mindset created by the very system that has been set up to strip their self determination and ability to think for themsleves.

"But 80-plus percent of people want to extend unemployment benefits and put more money into building roads. Another term for that is stimulus spending."

Another term for that would be "already paid for with taxes". Paying for roads is nothing new and for the most part is handled by the state or local government. This guy seems like a fool to me.

The problem at hand is actually television and radio. They allow a massive flow of information with just turning on the right channel. At least the internet requires some spelling and articulation in order to interact with others.

Another issue is all of the spoiled brats who end up being "activists". The children of the 60's are our leaders today and they ended up screwing it up worse than the people they were initially rebelling from. All this "Political Correctness" makes little to no sense. Who cares about your emotions, the only ones that should care are your spouses and/or parents(unless you pay for someone to care of course). Just go out there and do some work, if you make enough money then maybe you can still afford that Cappucino Grande Half-Caf with whipped cream and sprinkles every day.

It didn't get my point across, but I just saw everybody else ranting and wanted to join in.

In all seriousness though, we need common sense. Churches aren't politically active, but most people who go there are.
America is not a democracy, its a republic seeing as though we don't represent ourselves we have people to represent us. America is so large that a democracy would be impossible.

Warmasterscott wrote:We don't take care of most global issues cause we care, we do it to keep up our obnoxious image. Considering we put ourselves on a pedestal as some great nation we're almost no better than a spoiled brat living off our rich dad(forefathers).

Except for the fact that we've helped out the world on several occassions. In fact, our image for the most part is of the brute. With the Monroe Doctrine, invading Canada, almost going to war with Chile, using cannons to open Japan to trade, sailing a small fleet around the globe just to threaten our enemies, almost going to war with Canada over fishing rights, the whole "my bomb is bigger than your bomb" phase we went through, Roosevelt's Big Stick, an apparent fondness for war(but hey, at least we didn't fight for almost 100 years like some people we know). So maybe, we're just trying to soften up our negative image. People think America and say "Home of the ruffians and land of the Big Mac".

There's nothing wrong with changing your mind, of course, but polls reflect something more troubling: a country that simultaneously demands and rejects action on unemployment, deficits, health care, and other problems.

Which has a very bad underlying assumption, namely that any action on the part of the government in these issues should make people happy.

For instance Healthcare. Yes, many people want healthcare reform. I'd say most would. When a 10ml shot of pain meds costs $400, and a 5 minute bedside consult is billed at $600 people realize that something is wrong and needs to be fixed. The problem is that the government's solution to this made no one happy. It did nothing to fix the problem but it did create a new gargantuan government system that would cost billions, even trillions. So naturally people see this coming which pleases neither those who want nationalized healthcare nor those who just want to look at cost cutting reforms and of course the reaction turns against it.

That's the issue at the core of the situation. People don't just want the government to flail about for a few months and pass a bill. They want the government to actually do something about the issue. It's not good enough to just make any bill that does something, people want it to accomplish something in the process not that leaves the situation roughly the same or worse than when the government got involved.

So yes, people start off wanting a lot but often when they see the Federal government's "solution", they turn against it. The only thing troubling about that is that this idiot writes for a major publication and doesn't get that.

The problem is that the government's solution to this made no one happy. It did nothing to fix the problem but it did create a new gargantuan government system that would cost billions, even trillions. So naturally people see this coming which pleases neither those who want nationalized healthcare nor those who just want to look at cost cutting reforms and of course the reaction turns against it.

Except for the part where 90% of americans had no accurate conception of what the healthcare bill looked like or of the method by which it was being both developed and stalled. People fought tooth and nail because being told your grandparents will be killed for six months does that, not because they had any realistic view on the merits and downsides of the reforms being proposed.

Orkeosaurus wrote:

Anshal wrote:Hoho Im suprised to see that ANY Americans has this amount of awareness

He look are Disappoint.

i done a LOL.

Putin's O-face. Putin's thread. Get out of here you silly Americans.

Tyyr wrote: The problem is that the government's solution to this made no one happy.

How could it? It hasn't been put into effect.

Tyyr wrote:
That's the issue at the core of the situation. People don't just want the government to flail about for a few months and pass a bill.

This has been an issue for years. Since Nixon, in fact. Its hardly a debate which has occurred for only a few months. Granted, the burden of remembrance is on the state, but there still must be some measure of offense directed at those who ignore reality for their own emotional benefit.

Tyyr wrote:
They want the government to actually do something about the issue.

Passing a bill is doing something. In fact, its the something that government does. When you write off the principle action of a body as nothing, then you cease to be able to understand what they do. This is a criminal, and uniquely American, affront to thought.

Tyyr wrote:
It's not good enough to just make any bill that does something, people want it to accomplish something in the process not that leaves the situation roughly the same or worse than when the government got involved.

Well, duh. Trouble is that it is impossible to prove certainty when what is being considered is the future. Patience is key, and the mob lacks it; primarily for selfish reasons.

Tyyr wrote:
So yes, people start off wanting a lot but often when they see the Federal government's "solution", they turn against it. The only thing troubling about that is that this idiot writes for a major publication and doesn't get that.

He does get it, he's simply ranting against it. More troubling is you ability to react with emotion without understanding that others also do so. Unless, of course, you do understand and you're simply makinga conscientious choice to behave as a hypocrite.

dogma wrote:It isn't. We have people advocating 70% cuts to the federal government, no mind for the 14 million people that would be dropped on the market.

Emotionally motivated fools. So very sad. Also a good case for tyranny. Hilarious how that happens.

Hmm. What if it occurred over a period of fifty years or so?

Orkeosaurus wrote:

dogma wrote:It isn't. We have people advocating 70% cuts to the federal government, no mind for the 14 million people that would be dropped on the market.

Emotionally motivated fools. So very sad. Also a good case for tyranny. Hilarious how that happens.

Hmm. What if it occurred over a period of fifty years or so?

That would require systemic and designed cuts over that time period, with additional ones offsettings additional job gains governed by population increases. Given that we have an 8 year presidential cycle and a nearly equivalent party turnaround that would likely be impossible.

Hasn't it expanded by about the same degree from, say 1890 to 1940? I mean, I'm not forecasting it or anything. It seems that the change could be made if there was sufficient popular support for it, though, so to favor a fairly radical change of policy - but only so long as the change occurs at a slow enough pace for it to be adapted to - doesn't seem particularly short-sighted/ignorant/etc.

(Not that I think whoever is saying that federal spending should drop 70% is advocating this change over such a period of time; just saying that is could work if it was.)

Albatross wrote:@Shuma - Perhaps we're the only ones who agree with the premise of your post!

or you're the only ones that haven't gotten around to ignoring his sanctioned by moderators trolling yet.

Orkeosaurus wrote:Hmm. What if it occurred over a period of fifty years or so?

That would be sustainable.

Howlingmoon wrote:
or you're the only ones that haven't gotten around to ignoring his sanctioned by moderators trolling yet.

It would be for the best if you refrained from trolling in posts that critique trolls.

ShumaGorath wrote:I personally agree on all counts here...

Shuma agrees with a Lame street media mouthpiece that authors Bush bashing pieces. How incredibly refreshing and unexpected. <guffaw>

I mean come on... look at this smug fether.


He LOOKS like he thinks he's smarter than everyone else. And cooler too.

Anyway, on to the clearly unbiased and objective piece.

Newsweek. Oh yeah, they are unbiased. wrote:
http://www.newsweek.com/id/233158

In trying to explain our political paralysis, analysts cite President Obama's tactical missteps, the obstinacy of congressional Republicans, rising partisanship in Washington, and the Senate filibuster, which has devolved into a super-majority threshold for important legislation. These are large factors to be sure, but that list neglects what may be the biggest culprit of all: the childishness, ignorance, and growing incoherence of the public at large.

Ah... here it is. You fat stupid voters don't know what's good for you. You should leave it to Washington.

More Newsweak drivel wrote:
We want Washington and the states to fix our problems.

See that's the thing brainiac. We DONT want Washington to fix our problems. We want as little government as possible.

Even More Newsweak drivel wrote:
Some say that the public is in an angry, populist, tea-partying mood. But a lot more people are watching American Idol than Glenn Beck...

I love how he avoids recognizing the growing groundswell against a centralized power grab in DC by referring to it in the abstract. "Some say that the public is in an angry... mood". Wake up and smell the coffee egghead. We're as mad as hell.

Well at least Beck is getting press out of it. He's such a card. I love Glenn Beck. All that silly talk about the Founding Fathers, the Constitution and the lessons on how our levels of debt and spending are unsustainable. He's such a goofball. The fact that he makes these stuff shirts lose their minds is just icing on the cake.

Reaching for the duct tape now to keep my head from exploding wrote:
I don't mean to suggest that honesty vs. dishonesty is what divides the two parties. Increasingly, the crucial distinction is between the minority of serious politicians on either side who are prepared to speak frankly about our choices and the majority who indulge the public's delusions. I would put President Obama and his economic team in the first category...

Really. So Obama is the guy who is speaking frankly to us about how our delusions of Cap & Trade and government bailouts of banks and automakers are bad? Cause I missed that part. I seem to recall PresBO voting for all this gak. I seem to recall things like a $2Million turtle tunnel, $200K laws to remove tattoos from gang members and a program that spent $3 Billion to get people to buy cars they didn't need.

I would suggest that the difference between the two parties is about gone. Both are populated with career politicians who care nothing for their constituencies beyond their ability to provide them an easy life and cushy retirement. Case in point is the recently deceased Senator Murtha. The man was in power 19 terms. NINETEEN. More than 35 years of living off the public teat. He was known for being the master of the backroom pork barrel bill. Hate to speak ill of the dead, but he's an easy mark. There's more on both sides of the aisle.

Has it never occurred to any of you that Washington is a solution running around looking for a problem to justify it's own existence? Wake up!

The final outrage in the whole article wrote:
Our inability to address long-term challenges makes a strong case that the United States now faces an era of historical decline. To change this story-line, we need to stop blaming the rascals we elect to office, and look instead to ourselves.

Yes, we must look to ourselves and ask ourselves "How much longer will you tolerate eroding liberty and fiscal malfeasance on such a grand scale"? Look at Social Security. The only difference between what the Federal Government has done with SS and what Bernie Madoff did is that Bernie went to jail, and no one will go to jail for the $2.4 trillion theft of taxpayer funds. The money that is in the "Trust Fund" is gone... spent by the Washington machine and replaced with IOUs.

Yes, the problem is with us. I pray to God the American people will wake up and take action to correct it and that will begin with voting every incumbent out of office.

The Green Git wrote:
Ah... here it is. You fat stupid voters don't know what's good for you. You should leave it to Washington.

No, you should learn things. Things pertinent to the political process. Things like the meaning of the word 'republic'.

The Green Git wrote:
I love how he avoids recognizing the growing groundswell against a centralized power grab in DC by referring to it in the abstract. "Some say that the public is in an angry... mood". Wake up and smell the coffee egghead. We're as mad as hell.

You're mad. You speak for no one other than yourself. Unless you're a governing individual. Though I expect that would make you implode
.

The Green Git wrote:
Well at least Beck is getting press out of it. He's such a card. I love Glenn Beck. All that silly talk about the Founding Fathers, the Constitution and the lessons on how our levels of debt and spending are unsustainable. He's such a goofball. The fact that he makes these stuff shirts lose their minds is just icing on the cake.

You don't know what the word 'republic' means. You cannot speak to anything political until you correct this failure.

The Green Git wrote:
Really. So Obama is the guy who is speaking frankly to us about how our delusions of Cap & Trade and government bailouts of banks and automakers are bad? Cause I missed that part. I seem to recall PresBO voting for all this gak.

Casting a vote does not indicate that something seems good or bad, only that it seems necessary.

The Green Git wrote:
I seem to recall things like a $2Million turtle tunnel, $200K laws to remove tattoos from gang members and a program that spent $3 Billion to get people to buy cars they didn't need.

Tiny numbers indicate a lack of perspective.

The Green Git wrote:
I would suggest that the difference between the two parties is about gone. Both are populated with career politicians who care nothing for their constituencies beyond their ability to provide them an easy life and cushy retirement.

So...they care for the constituencies? What in God's name do you believe exists outside an easy life, and a cushy retirement?

The Green Git wrote:
Case in point is the recently deceased Senator Murtha. The man was in power 19 terms. NINETEEN. More than 35 years of living off the public teat. He was known for being the master of the backroom pork barrel bill. Hate to speak ill of the dead, but he's an easy mark. There's more on both sides of the aisle.

I bet that his constituents did well living of his pork barrel skills.

The Green Git wrote:
Has it never occurred to any of you that Washington is a solution running around looking for a problem to justify it's own existence? Wake up!

What does 'republic' mean?

The Green Git wrote:
no one will go to jail for the $2.4 trillion theft.

Not theft when justified.

The Green Git wrote:
Yes, the problem is with us. I pray to God the American people will wake up and take action to correct it and that will begin with voting every incumbent out of office.

What action? You don't seem to know, therefore you should stop speaking.

Wow, Green Git really hates that article. You'd think he just watched Avatar or something.

The Green Git wrote:Ah... here it is. You fat stupid voters don't know what's good for you. You should leave it to Washington.

Are you claiming the population at large has practical, grounded beliefs about government policy? Really?

The crazy thing is poeple mistake america for a democracy when, in fact, we are a republic, most people do not know this, and that gives polititions an upperhand to push bills and documents restricting our freedom. government is courrupt no matter what form, because no group of people given power will not exploit it, so in general government SUCKS

have a good day

dogma wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:Hmm. What if it occurred over a period of fifty years or so?

That would be sustainable.

Howlingmoon wrote:
or you're the only ones that haven't gotten around to ignoring his sanctioned by moderators trolling yet.

It would be for the best if you refrained from trolling in posts that critique trolls.

You just can't quit me can you?

Orkeosaurus wrote:Wow, Green Git really hates that article. You'd think he just watched Avatar or something.

Green git has ever not hated something?

Howlingmoon wrote:
You just can't quit me can you?

Not until you write something that isn't full of misdirected self hate.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Captain Shrike wrote:The crazy thing is poeple mistake america for a democracy when, in fact, we are a republic, most people do not know this, and that gives polititions an upperhand to push bills and documents restricting our freedom.

Exhibit A. This person does not know that democracy is a form of republic, or that a republic is not necessarily respective of freedom. This is the average voter; he is not knowledgeable, or intelligent.

Hmmm....on an average day when i'm not thinking.........sounds like me!!!

But are you varifying, or dismissing my statement, from how you wrote it I cant tell...or maby it's an average day for me

Everyone knows i like most Americans, well, except maybe for the one i live with

So i dont want people thinking this is a case of needlessly insulting a whole nation, but maybe Shuma lots of Brits answered because we generally are alot more clued in with regard to politics?

My girlfriend insists that from general conversations with the people she has worked and socialised with over the past 12 months here in England, people in this country just seem to read more news and take more interest in the running of things.

Ignorance is bliss though? Maybe its because our country is more sucky to live in and Americans are more upbeat and happy with things so they dont take as much interest in politics?

Just a few thoughts there....

If Palin gets in, im going to have to demand that you guys take more of an interest in politics however!

@mattyrm - To be fair, we ARE also more apathetic in terms of voter turn-out....

dogma wrote:How could it? It hasn't been put into effect.

So is this you being intentionally daft? Can people not form an opinion on a proposed course of action?

This has been an issue for years. Since Nixon, in fact. Its hardly a debate which has occurred for only a few months. Granted, the burden of remembrance is on the state, but there still must be some measure of offense directed at those who ignore reality for their own emotional benefit.

There can be some, obviously, however when the state continues to enact legislation that it knows will accomplish nothing the lawmakers of the country can't stand around dumbfounded wondering why everyone isn't happy that they passed ineffectual legislation. Both parties share blame, the people who still think the government will actually fix something and the government who thinks their worthless fixes will pacify the people.

Passing a bill is doing something. In fact, its the something that government does. When you write off the principle action of a body as nothing, then you cease to be able to understand what they do. This is a criminal, and uniquely American, affront to thought.

Doing something without accomplishing anything isn't going to make anyone happy. If you take your car to the garage to get it fixed because it won't get out of second gear and when you get it back it won't come out of third now did the mechanic do something? Yes he did. Did he accomplish anything? Not really, and you'd be pissed. The results of what are done matter. I don't discount the legislature's ability to pass bills. However when they pass useless, ineffectual, or just broken legislation its simply a waste of everyone's time. Expecting people to be grateful that the government spun its wheels for a month is ridiculous.

Well, duh. Trouble is that it is impossible to prove certainty when what is being considered is the future. Patience is key, and the mob lacks it; primarily for selfish reasons.

Except we're not operating in a vacuum. Back on healthcare because it's fresh in everyone's minds, when the government's own accounting office says that a bit of proposed legislation will cost hundreds of billions of dollars and will do nothing about prices during a time when people are concerned about the deficit and the rising costs of healthcare people are going to start to wonder what the hell the people on the hill are thinking.

He does get it, he's simply ranting against it. More troubling is you ability to react with emotion without understanding that others also do so. Unless, of course, you do understand and you're simply makinga conscientious choice to behave as a hypocrite.

And you miss the point. I get that he's reacting with emotion, and yes I am reacting a bit with my own. However I think he's wrong, and I said so. Every donkey-cave has an opinion *Raises his hand*, but the ones who voice their opinions in major newspapers should probably at least have a well reasoned opinion. I think his emotional reaction is stemming from misplaced blame and I said so. At the very least the blame should be spread between an electorate that wants it all and a government that doesn't understand the people and lacks the backbone to occasionally tell them no.

There can be some, obviously, however when the state continues to enact legislation that it knows will accomplish nothing the lawmakers of the country can't stand around dumbfounded wondering why everyone isn't happy that they passed ineffectual legislation. Both parties share blame, the people who still think the government will actually fix something and the government who thinks their worthless fixes will pacify the people.

A democracy is only a reflection of the will of it's people. Capitulating to the impossible demands of an ill educated populace is their job, and it's what they have been doing for a decade. The only reason it's still not working is because one in ten can't get a job, and amusingly enough thats largely due to a lack of government intervention, and not due to any failing of the governments effort.

Doing something without accomplishing anything isn't going to make anyone happy.

Thats simply not true at all, all an administration needs do is create the perception that their efforts are having a desired effect. The bush era clean air acts and globalization initiative being examples of such dupes.

If you take your car to the garage to get it fixed because it won't get out of second gear and when you get it back it won't come out of third now did the mechanic do something? Yes he did. Did he accomplish anything? Not really, and you'd be pissed.

Thats assuming you know what gears are, and that you yourself are driving your car. Neither of which is a good allegory for the state of the average citizen and the state.

I don't discount the legislature's ability to pass bills. However when they pass useless, ineffectual, or just broken legislation its simply a waste of everyone's time. Expecting people to be grateful that the government spun its wheels for a month is ridiculous.

It should be, it's exactly what the American people repeatedly ask for, and it's exactly what they deserve.

Except we're not operating in a vacuum. Back on healthcare because it's fresh in everyone's minds, when the government's own accounting office says that a bit of proposed legislation will cost hundreds of billions of dollars and will do nothing about prices during a time when people are concerned about the deficit and the rising costs of healthcare people are going to start to wonder what the hell the people on the hill are thinking.

Technically, it was going to cost minimally more than the current system while providing longterm savings and paying for it's imbalances within the first decade. What the weakling little idiots on main street want is an instant fix while spending less money and getting better care. Forgive me for thinking that they are little more than children wanting the shiniest toy on the shelf but not wanting to use their allowance to get it.

d you miss the point. I get that he's reacting with emotion, and yes I am reacting a bit with my own. However I think he's wrong, and I said so.

You don't successfully refute an "opinion" that the american public is ill educated and unaware of either what it actually wants or how to achieve it by supporting his assertion.

Every donkey-cave has an opinion *Raises his hand*, but the ones who voice their opinions in major newspapers should probably at least have a well reasoned opinion. I think his emotional reaction is stemming from misplaced blame and I said so. At the very least the blame should be spread between an electorate that wants it all and a government that doesn't understand the people and lacks the backbone to occasionally tell them no.

Isn't that what he did? Though truthfully, I don't understand your complaint. We are a democracy, it is their job to fulfill the wishes of the populace. They are at best hostages of the aggressive idiocy of the infotainment age, and at worst they profiteer off of the arrogance and ignorance of the American public, but regardless of their stance, they can only do it specifically because the civilian market for idiocy and apathy is so virulent that glenn beck can get better ratings than national geographic.

Ok, first off, the United States is a republic. There has been only one true democracy and it's way back in the Greek City states with Spartans and the like. The voter allows a politician to represent their concerns/interests and sadly therein lies the problem. As it was pointed out the recently deceased Murthas served for 36 years. Old 'flip' Strom Thurmond served NC for 47 YEARS before dying. Many problems stem from these pseudo kings getting reelected by ignorant masses and stuffing bills to fullfill favors and pockets. The constiuents only benefit when enough votes are gained from other senators to benefit other voting blocks. And no this isn't good.

Besides, how can you trust someone that can VOTE TO GIVE THEMSELVES RAISES?! Congress needs a term limit so that selfish heads don't make so many connections and deals to become multi millionaires. A while back there was a gov't furlough (state workers are forced to take time off with no pay) and the governor Perdue was riding around in a freakin' helicopter. He could have driven but instead he showed off to another state governor.

I believe that voters made a goodly mess by re-voting these jackals in but new blood would help stem some of this.

I'll also end on a joke via George Carlin

Pro is good and con is bad.

If progress is the act of moving forward, then what is congress?

Anshal wrote:Hoho Im suprised to see that ANY Americans has this amount of awareness, But on the other hand it hadd to happen sooner or later but good jobb with getting a healty attitude towards your problems.

God in heaven that was stupid...

I'M KOREAN
SON OF A BITCH AMERICAN
AMERICAN IS PIG
DO YOU WANT A HAMBURGER?
DO YOU WANT A PIZZA?
AMERICAN IS PIG DISGUSTING
GEORGE WALKER BUSH IS A MURDERER
fething U.S.A

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'M KOREAN
SON OF A BITCH AMERICAN
AMERICAN IS PIG
DO YOU WANT A HAMBURGER?
DO YOU WANT A PIZZA?
AMERICAN IS PIG DISGUSTING
GEORGE WALKER BUSH IS A MURDERER
fething U.S.A

Exactly. I could not have said it better myself.

EDIT: Is it just me or does anyone else feel like a good burger or maybe a slice of pizza?