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I agree entirely with Fitz, the thing i hate more than anything else is hypocricy, i hate it more than racism, sexism, bigotry of any kind. It disgusts me. I dont support the BNP, but they should always be given the right to speak. If people like Ken Livingstone get their way, then its not really freedom of speech, its freedom of speech for people who i agree with. They will never win a general election anyway, and livingstone crowing on about 'allowing them to speak gives them legitimacy' is just a front for banning people he doesnt like in the most base and hypocritical way. If Abu Hamza can preach and muslim clerics and 9/11 supporters are allowed to spew their gak on the streets, then so should the BNP. Anything else is an outrage, and censorship. Something the extreme left are famous for. Im a staunch Tory, but if i had to be stuck in a lift with red ken or toady bong eye griffin, id be hard pushed to choose!


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I agree entirely with Fitz, the thing i hate more than anything else is hypocricy, i hate it more than racism, sexism, bigotry of any kind. It disgusts me. I dont support the BNP, but they should always be given the right to speak. If people like Ken Livingstone get their way, then its not really freedom of speech, its freedom of speech for people who i agree with. They will never win a general election anyway, and livingstone crowing on about 'allowing them to speak gives them legitimacy' is just a front for banning people he doesnt like in the most base and hypocritical way. If Abu Hamza can preach and muslim clerics and 9/11 supporters are allowed to spew their gak on the streets, then so should the BNP. Anything else is an outrage, and censorship. Something the extreme left are famous for. Im a staunch Tory, but if i had to be stuck in a lift with red ken or toady bong eye griffin, id be hard pushed to choose!

bsohi wrote:

Orkeosaurus wrote:I'd rather have racist racists more than pretend-not-racist racists.

Me?

Oh no, the BNP. Or at least those of the BNP who would have kept the prohibition on non-whites in their constitution.

(Sorry about that.)

bsohi wrote:Eh, I think I might have an insight on this. I sort of believe in the spirit of what the BNP -could- become, not what it is.

I'm the first generation of my family to be born in Canada, my parents came here from India, Punjab to be exact, something like 20-30 years ago. When they came here, they knew full well it was a christian country, it was a country where the majority was caucasian etc etc.

I went to public schools that had Christmas trees, sang Christmas carols, had days off of school at Christmas, and Easter. Now? When a Christian tries saying "Merry Christmas!" they get their bloody head bit off! They decry the time off people get for christmas, and then demand time off for Diwali, for Eid, for whatever! I grew up, and didn't demand that my highschool exams be put off because it coincided with a religious holiday for Sikhs, I did my exams and partied it up on the weekend. I joined the Canadian army, and the law is far from discriminatory, they were respectful of my beliefs, offering to bring in a Sikh religious member from a nearby temple if I needed because they had no Sikh Padre, also telling me that it was cool if I wanted a turban and beard (I'm clean shaven normally, but it was nice).

You know, I've never met a immigrant who actually argued for the local population to stop their religious customs. I've read some articles about it, but when you look behind it 95%* of them are complete nonsense (such as the shock of UK council having a winter festival instead of Christmas -it was a complete lie - the council had the lights put in the asset register as 'winter lights' as that's what they were bought as, but the festival went ahead as a Christmas Parade) and the rest of them are from some talking head leftie that represents exactly zero percent of the population.

Personally, I think the whole thing is incredibly exaggerated. We're not going to stop having Christmas celebrations.

And bravo for how France is maintaining it's cultural identity, and the Swiss ban on minarets.

Who's bothered by someone else wearing a veil? And there were four minarets in the whole of the country. None of that had anything to do with protecting the lifestyles of the majority.

@Sebster. It's already happened here man. Peel region school board no longer has Christmas Concerts, but rather has holiday concerts etc.

I mean, 99% of immigrants generally are cool with things, keep their nose to the grindstone, work hard and integrate into society. I don't deny that. My parents are an example. But you do have to respect the local culture etc. I mean I find it bad that people, total strangers, approach me and start speaking to me in Punjabi in parts of Toronto. And recently there's been pushes in my area (a large concentration of punjabi and chinese people) to offer more services in those languages, instead of them trying to learn english.


And by referring to France, I meant I applauded how they defend their STAUNCH secularism, by exluding ALL symbols of religion in public schools. Christians are denied cross, Sikhs denied their kirpans, Muslim girls denied their veils. And it's not being bothered by someone else wearing a veil, but it's what it stands for. The french believe that having a woman wearing a veil is a dehumanizing experience for her etc etc. That's what the french believe and have legislated. If you're a Muslim woman and want to wear your veil, stay out of France. Democratically voted governments standing up for their cultural ideals is a beautiful thing.

And though the Swiss only had 4 minarets, the Muslim population is growing rapidly in traditionally "white" areas of Europe. The ban on the minarets didn't command the destruction of the ones already built, but rather banned building any more. Or Switzerland would look more spikey than a hedgehog with all the towers in 20 years time lol. The Uk is already referred to as "Londonistan" yeah? The swiss don't like the Aesthetics of middle eastern buildings. Not a middle eastern country, they don't want that type of architecture and it was voted down in a public referendum. Fair's fair in democracy. The Muslims are free to worship, but the minarets are regarded as an eyesore.

bsohi wrote: The Uk is already referred to as "Londonistan" yeah?

Who the hell refereers to to the UK as LONDONISTAN, i live in both Hull and London two very mixed cities and i have never heard this, although i do believe after a few years all immigrants should be able to speak, with at least a good grasp, the official language of the country they move to, but what the BNP want is wrong, they are just a bunch of racists.


PS. foreigners who think London=England really grind my gears

Bluntman wrote:Who the hell refereers to to the UK as LONDONISTAN?

Americans. Charming, aren't they?

bsohi wrote:...
...

The Uk is already referred to as "Londonistan" yeah?

...

Really? I've never heard that before.

Albatross wrote:
Americans. Charming, aren't they?

I certainly consider my wife very charming Alby.

@MGS - And?
Is it wrong to find it distasteful that some Americans call our country 'Londonistan' because there are supposedly so many Asians here?

He asked - I told. No Yank-bashing on my part. Some of my best friends are... actually that isn't true.

Albatross wrote:@MGS - And?
Is it wrong to find it distasteful that some Americans call our country 'Londonistan' because there are supposedly so many Asians here?

He asked - I told. No Yank-bashing on my part. Some of my best friends are... actually that isn't true.

Which part isn't true? The part where you allude to having friends?

What do you mean 'And?', let me be clear for you, since you've not grasped this.

You didn't say 'some Americans', which has as much weight as 'some people' or 'some humans', you said 'Americans, charming aren't they?' A blanket statement about Americans. One person's sweeping generalisation and proffered ignorance isn't an excuse for you to do it back, you're painting yourself into the same corner as the poster you're taking a pot-shot at.

Can you seriously not grasp the hypocrisy you just committed and how you just insulted Americans instead of one person, from the US, making a stupid comment.

Albatross wrote:@MGS - And?
Is it wrong to find it distasteful that some Americans call our country 'Londonistan' because there are supposedly so many Asians here?

He asked - I told. No Yank-bashing on my part. Some of my best friends are... actually that isn't true.

Is it wrong to find it distasteful that some English lump all Americans together?

What happened to the freedom to do or be what you like. Are we only free to be like the majority? What would happen if one moved to a country for a better life, but most people there were Emo. They claim it's the land of the free, but if you don't learn how to be Emo they throw you out. Here in America I can get ragged on for the rims on my car by a guy with truck n*ts. People just hate whats different.

sexiest_hero wrote:What happened to the freedom to do or be what you like. Are we only free to be like the majority?

Hopefully not. There is something to be said against both sides of the issue in this regard, though.

sexiest_hero wrote:What happened to the freedom to do or be what you like. Are we only free to be like the majority? What would happen if one moved to a country for a better life, but most people there were Emo. They claim it's the land of the free, but if you don't learn how to be Emo they throw you out. Here in America I can get ragged on for the rims on my car by a guy with truck n*ts. People just hate whats different.

The last time fascists were free to be what they wanted to be, a couple of hundred million people died.

To protect freedoms there must be laws and restrictions.

It's time to defuse the tension with the power of music -- the great communicator.

@MGS
This was the post:

I wrote:

Bluntman wrote: Who the hell refereers to to the UK as LONDONISTAN?

Americans. Charming, aren't they?

Seriously, chill. I like you, but you have a tendency to froth at the mouth at the merest hint of any percieved slight. It was obviously tongue-in-cheek - although I do believe that particular name is American in origin. And I do have friends, but none of them are American so the 'some of my best friends are black' defence doesn't work. That was what that meant. If you're planning on being wilfully obtuse every time you reply to me, let me know so I can spell out every last idiomatic device in my future posts.

Ah, Kilkrazy, bring' the awesome, as always...

Kilkrazy wrote:It's time to defuse the tension with the power of music -- the great communicator.

Umm,what was it we were talking about?

Apparently I hate Americans, FITTZ.


Thoughts?

Albatross wrote:Apparently I hate Americans, FITTZ.


Thoughts?

Hmmm,
Well,as I am an American and have had many good "conversations" with you,up to and including getting falling down drunk and stumbling from one jazz club to another if (when) you visit New Orleans,I don't belive you hate Americans....unless of course your pulling off a clever rouse simply to put me at ease and eventualy knock me over the head with one of the several bottles of liquor I planned to buy you

I LIKE Americans - I have Americans in my family. I have effectively committed the next couple of years of my life to the in-depth study of one aspect of American culture. I am not anti-american by any stretch of the imagination.

I see it as a kind of 'brotherly' thing - brothers bicker and fight, take the piss out of each other - but when it comes down to it, we're still family. I think the 'anglo' countries (UK/USA/Canada/Australia/NZ) do have that sort of attitude going on. I will happily take the piss out of America, but if someone from another country slagged the USA off in my presence I would put them straight in no uncertain terms. As far as I've seen, Americans, Aussies etc. are pretty much the same in that respect...


...At least, they seem to like taking the piss out of us for sipping tea and having bad teeth! (True Story: I had a tooth pulled to day, and am drinking tea as I type this. )

Albatross wrote:I LIKE Americans - I have Americans in my family. I have effectively committed the next couple of years of my life to the in-depth study of one aspect of American culture. I am not anti-american by any stretch of the imagination.

I see it as a kind of 'brotherly' thing - brothers bicker and fight, take the piss out of each other - but when it comes down to it, we're still family. I think the 'anglo' countries (UK/USA/Canada/Australia/NZ) do have that sort of attitude going on. I will happily take the piss out of America, but if someone from another country slagged the USA off in my presence I would put them straight in no uncertain terms. As far as I've seen, Americans, Aussies etc. are pretty much the same in that respect...


...At least, they seem to like taking the piss out of us for sipping tea and having bad teeth! (True Story: I had a tooth pulled to day, and am drinking tea as I type this. )

Amen Brother I belive you summed that up nicely...right,first rounds on me,and we won't be drinking tea

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

sexiest_hero wrote:What happened to the freedom to do or be what you like. Are we only free to be like the majority? What would happen if one moved to a country for a better life, but most people there were Emo. They claim it's the land of the free, but if you don't learn how to be Emo they throw you out. Here in America I can get ragged on for the rims on my car by a guy with truck n*ts. People just hate whats different.

The last time fascists were free to be what they wanted to be, a couple of hundred million people died.

To protect freedoms there must be laws and restrictions.

Blacklist the Commies Fascists! Save us McCarthy!


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(For what it's worth Albatross, I didn't think you were being particularly rude to Americans.)

bsohi wrote:@Sebster. It's already happened here man. Peel region school board no longer has Christmas Concerts, but rather has holiday concerts etc.

Yes, they do. And they do this by embracing and representing the many different faiths that make up their school. There are still carols and Santa, but there’s also fesitivities recognising other religious practices.

The charge I dismiss is that Christian celebrations would be removed as they would be deemed offensive. In your example the celebrations stillgo on, as well as the celebrations of the other cultures that make up the school district. How is that a problem?

I mean, 99% of immigrants generally are cool with things, keep their nose to the grindstone, work hard and integrate into society. I don't deny that. My parents are an example. But you do have to respect the local culture etc. I mean I find it bad that people, total strangers, approach me and start speaking to me in Punjabi in parts of Toronto. And recently there's been pushes in my area (a large concentration of punjabi and chinese people) to offer more services in those languages, instead of them trying to learn english.

You have to respect the local culture, but in order to claim to be multicultural you also have to welcoming. I agree that a common language is good, vital even, but the reality is that not every immigrant will have great English. If you offer a visa to a bloke because your country needs engineers and he’s qualified and has good English, do you insist his wife .

I think there should be free English classes and genuine outreach efforts to get people into classrooms to learn. But I also think you should allow someone to go about living their life and interacting with government even if their English isn’t great. It’s a balancing effort.

And by referring to France, I meant I applauded how they defend their STAUNCH secularism, by exluding ALL symbols of religion in public schools. Christians are denied cross, Sikhs denied their kirpans, Muslim girls denied their veils. And it's not being bothered by someone else wearing a veil, but it's what it stands for.

The french believe that having a woman wearing a veil is a dehumanizing experience for her etc etc. That's what the french believe and have legislated. If you're a Muslim woman and want to wear your veil, stay out of France. Democratically voted governments standing up for their cultural ideals is a beautiful thing.

A headscarf is dehumanising? I can see the argument that a full burkha is, but there’s less than a thousand women in the whole of France that wear burkhas (the French muslim population doesn’t come from countries with burkha traditions).

And there is a difference between stopping someone wearing a cross, as you can be Christian without a piece of jewellery, and stopping a Muslim wearing a headscarf, which is a part of their religious identity. Either way its an obnoxious thing for the state to do and totally outside of what the state should be concerning itself with.

The Uk is already referred to as "Londonistan" yeah?

As has been pointed out, this is an invention of the US. Have you been to London? It is a multicultural city, but the idea that it can be defined by its minority Islamic population is an invention of islamaphobes.

The swiss don't like the Aesthetics of middle eastern buildings. Not a middle eastern country, they don't want that type of architecture and it was voted down in a public referendum. Fair's fair in democracy. The Muslims are free to worship, but the minarets are regarded as an eyesore.

The idea that a democrat vote makes something alright is incredibly dangerous. Two wolves and a sheep, and all that.

The idea that a constitutional amendment was brought in over aesthetic concerns is laughable. Have you seen Geneva? It’s a very ugly city, just grey concrete blocks. The ban was motivated out of a desire to place a control on a minority that people have recently become afraid of. It’s a thing that happens through history.

sebster wrote:
The idea that a democrat vote makes something alright is incredibly dangerous. Two wolves and a sheep, and all that.

Perhaps you are referring to this sheep?

I love how the white sheep is all happy, and the black one is all sad. Like whoever made the poster just doesn't care.

dogma wrote:

sebster wrote:
The idea that a democrat vote makes something alright is incredibly dangerous. Two wolves and a sheep, and all that.

Perhaps you are referring to this sheep?

What's that? Racially motivated ban on minarets? Nah, it's just about protecting the Swiss preference for grey concrete cubes, as aptly demonstrated in this political poster showing a white sheep booting a black sheep out of Switzerland.

What amuses me most is that (sorry Orkeo) the white sheep don't even look happy. Instead, they seem either indifferent, or shocked by the presence of the black sheep.

I think the sheep doing the kicking looks happy. The other white sheep seem less enthusiastic, perhaps slightly concerned with the state of affairs.

It's a compelling poster.

Red, white and black is a strong colour palette.