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You know, when I started playing 2nd edition, we used a 4' x 8' table.

And that was for 2000pts.
Which was only about 30-ish marines, and a couple characters.

So, yes, they have steadily increased the models per inch of table ratio.

But they also suggested for a 3000each side Apoc game, you play on 4 x 6 minimum.

Personally, I have found the larger stuff to only be worthwhile on a larger (4x8 at least)) table.

Its kinda funny. GW gamers cram as much as they can onto tiny little tables.
Historical gamers will have 6 x 12 foot tables for movement of reserves that wont see the main battle table for hours.

skrulnik wrote:

Its kinda funny. GW gamers cram as much as they can onto tiny little tables.
Historical gamers will have 6 x 12 foot tables for movement of reserves that wont see the main battle table for hours.

As far as I know (since I've never played in one) tourneys all use the 6x4 as standard and the game is playtested and 'designed' to fit on a table this size at around 2k pts.

I've played several games of WHFB 3rd edition many years ago on a 10x6 and it was amazing to see this additional dynamic of bluff and reaction to the opposition's reserves and supporting units.

Last I was aware, GW professed to testing at 1500pts for 40k.
But, I agree that it is 2000pts for fantasy.
6 x 4 is also the GW standard.

When I play 40k, FB, or Flames of War, I like to have 8' wide.

It makes the games something besides "Line up and slam into each other"

40K is basically a skirmish system and 28mm is a good scale for skirmishes. However, skirmish games usually involve very small forces, typically a dozen or so figures and a vehicle per side. This doesn't suit the GW business plan, so they wrote the unit based rules on top of the core skirmish rules.

The recent changes, the increased importance of Troops and the falling points cost of units, is clearly intended to get players to buy and use more stuff. Obviously a point comes where the game will be unplayable because the table is too crowded.

Someone mentioned above that the game will have an opening phase, a middle phase and a resolution phase. That is a sensible way of looking at a battle and also a good way to run a game. With only 5-7 turns, though, it is hardly feasible to develop a battle plan. The small table resolves this by making units come into contact practically as soon as they arrive. (Increased movement rates help.)

Anyway, that's 40K and there are other lots of games if you want to play something with more manoeuvre involved.

I find this to be a ridiculous problem in WFHB, where usually most of the big models (Hydras, Steam Tanks, etc.) are taking up some large space, which can be annoying in larger games.

However, it seems like this could be remedied by simply playing on a larger board, of course.

I don't understand the problem.

They are making bigger models because there's a demand for them. If they stopped making smaller models there would be an issue, but no one is making you purchase a Stompa.

If they were trying to make it so you had to have a Super Heavy to win there'd be no such thing as a Vortex Grenade. Also, if you don't have a super heavy in Apocalypse and your opponent does you get an extra strategic asset. I really don't think that they're stacking the deck too much.

I thought this thread was going to be about models getting more ridiculous, like every marine having to have 2 tabards, a loincloth, 14 gold and silver chains, and whatever else the sculptor thinks he can fit on. You know, the type of nice little details that used to be used sparingly and made certain models stand out. This is especially apparent in space marines, now they're all ridiculous monstrosities.



As for model scale I like them to be bigger. I wish marines were bigger, I haven't been able to bring myself to paint one since they released the =][= scale Artemis and I realised how horribly small 40k marines are.

And model count, yes as people are saying it's an ever increasing problem. That's why I'd never try to collect an army for 40k or wfb. Playing stuff like Necro or BB was always my limit.

If you hate big models, don't buy them. If your opponent has big models, shoot them with a melta gun. Problems solved on all accounts!

Cryonicleech wrote:I find this to be a ridiculous problem in WFHB, where usually most of the big models (Hydras, Steam Tanks, etc.) are taking up some large space, which can be annoying in larger games.

However, it seems like this could be remedied by simply playing on a larger board, of course.

Huh? Hydras and Steamtanks etc all take up less room than a standard 5x4 Regiment?

insaniak wrote:

CT GAMER wrote:

Cruentus wrote:I also think that 'scale' is off with these larger creatures and vehicles. If I wanted to use Baneblades, I'd play epic. 40k is supposed to be a smaller battle that is part of a larger struggle,

So by that logic why are important named characters running around fighting in such tiny skirmishes? i assume you don't use any of them or condone their use either?

The point was that it's not necessarily a tiny skirmish. A 40K game is a 'snapshot' of one portion of the larger battle being fought.

And that snapshot could just happen to be focusing in on a baneblade. If it makes sense for the "camera" to be focusing on Abaddon's immediate surroundings then it is likewise pefectly aceptable to assume it happens to be focusing in on a baneblades surroundings...

Whats your point?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

MeanGreenStompa wrote:There is certainly one clear answer.

Points costs. If folks play 1k armies on big table then it limits the 'megamodels' making an appearance.

I know I prefer 1250-1750pt. games, but I can rarely find an opponent who wants to play less than 2000-2500pts.

Kanluwen wrote:
Valkyries, in addition to 'taking up a lot of real estate' also take up a fair amounts of points. So again...point is moot.

lol?

I don't really care too much, the only thing I really hate is when they have ludicruous model prices (Valks, $60 each?!). Even though I can get them for $40 a pop, it's still ridiculous how OP stuff is.

Skohm wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:
Valkyries, in addition to 'taking up a lot of real estate' also take up a fair amounts of points. So again...point is moot.

lol?

Go ahead and run enough Valkyries to 'take up a lot of real estate' in a small game.

See how many points are leftover.

You're not going to clutter a board one way or the other if you're taking Valkyries.

Kanluwen wrote:And 4x6 or smaller? Really? Do you guys play in a closet?

It might surprise a lot of Americans, but most people I know cannot get a four by six gaming table into their tiny European apartments or even houses. The space just isn't there.

This is a much needed discussion. It all went to "£$^ when that useless Vendetta model was introduced.

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And 4x6 or smaller? Really? Do you guys play in a closet?

It might surprise a lot of Americans, but most people I know cannot get a four by six gaming table into their tiny European apartments or even houses. The space just isn't there.

All of my games are played on my 54" x 54" kitchen table or on 6'x4' tables at my LGS.

I also don't see Valkyries as being too much of a problem. They're on such tall bases you really only need to leave room for base.

I'll answer with this:

They're getting alot larger, and it's awesome.

I mean, space and real estate wise it's difficult.

But, 10 marines firing up at a carni looks awesome, and in assault a carni with a marine in it's claw is definatly an excelent look.

I second the motion that Marines need to be bigger.

And that for a change 40kor fantasy should be played on a huge table. You could finally outrange your opponent with your artillery!

Greets
Schepp himself

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And 4x6 or smaller? Really? Do you guys play in a closet?

It might surprise a lot of Americans, but most people I know cannot get a four by six gaming table into their tiny European apartments or even houses. The space just isn't there.

I have identified the problem and formulated a solution, this cannot fail.

Buy a bigger house/apartment/whatever. Then you will have more room to buy, store and play with bigger models.

If you hate big models go play epic

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And 4x6 or smaller? Really? Do you guys play in a closet?

It might surprise a lot of Americans, but most people I know cannot get a four by six gaming table into their tiny European apartments or even houses. The space just isn't there.

Agreed and confirmed. Had a 600 sq feet apartment when I was living as a single in the US, now we are 3 people living in 675 sq feet. Real estate is just too expensive to allow for large room unless you live in arural area or in outer suburbs.

Hmm, sounds like someone isn't willing to make enough sacrifices for the emperor to me.

Commissars have been notified, please remain calm while they are en route to your location. You may want to put plastic over your nicer things in the interim.

I played a 1000+1000vs1000+1000 game the other day, and the tyranid player's army was pretty much warriors, gaunts and a trygon and tervigon... the monsters were fun as hell to play against!

ArbitorIan wrote:SO, I'm ranting but...

Has GW recently adopted a policy of 'Model Creep'. It seems like they're trying to make bigger, more expensive models. The recent armies have all had huge kits, from the Baneblade through to the Valkyrie and the recent Tyranid codex and it's billion or so monstrous creatures. Hell, it all started with that darn defiler...

I must say, I'm not a fan at all. I like my little guys. I like that they all fit in my case. Is 40k going to end up as 'everyone has to have a great big model to win'?

I don't like them either.

The biggest turn off and detriment to this issue to me personally was the terminator situation.

I have loads of termies that I like to play both 40K and space hulk with, then they go on and do what they did to them and in effect throw the whole space marine scale to the dogs.
These days, I get to look at IG that are bigger in scale then a standard issue plastic space marine, tactical or otherwise.

Other models can include, but arn't alone-

The Rhino Predator to the Leman Russ.
Baneblade, as opposed to the Titan size.
Newer issue space marines, as opposed to even some from just last year. ( Scouts.Tactical, Assult, and termies) nevermind the heros, officer, etc. They don't even work in scale.

28-32 last year and 28-35 this year.

I won't even get into the Ork/ Tyranid/ Tau debate. Lets just leave it at that the scale issue is getting out of hand and the third fourth and fifth effects are going to be not only removing models from your army altogether for GW's great idea to nulify whole unit coices at the drop of a hat, you are probibly going to have to get brand new ones, just to keep the game going..

Agamemnon2 wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:And 4x6 or smaller? Really? Do you guys play in a closet?

It might surprise a lot of Americans, but most people I know cannot get a four by six gaming table into their tiny European apartments or even houses. The space just isn't there.

It surprises me considering just how easy people say it is to make a modular table.

Scale in 40k is so abstract, beyond Space Marines and Imperial Guard there is really nothing to base it on. 40k has never had consistent scale, which is why historical game players laugh at 40k for being toys. Epic 40k was just as bad if not worse. There is no precedent for consistency. Even weapons are so ridiculous in "scale" to the model. None of it makes sense and it shouldn't have to. Its about having fun and if scale is a issue of such importance that it ruins your fun, 40k is not designed for you.

It's not just the size of the table it is the space needed to move around the edge.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's not just the size of the table it is the space needed to move around the edge.

Naw, use one of those shuffleboard shovel thingies.

Kilkrazy wrote:It's not just the size of the table it is the space needed to move around the edge.

And the practicality of having that table set up in your lounge/diner if you are a child of a family or a parent of a family. We don't have the vast basements or attics over here. UK like Japan has something of a premium on space.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:

Kilkrazy wrote:It's not just the size of the table it is the space needed to move around the edge.

And the practicality of having that table set up in your lounge/diner if you are a child of a family or a parent of a family. We don't have the vast basements or attics over here. UK like Japan has something of a premium on space.

Yeah, but in japan you can play on the floor.