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2010/03/05 10:58:23
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
The poor man really has a stake in the country. The rich man hasn't; he can go away to New Guinea in a yacht. The poor have sometimes objected to being governed badly; the rich have always objected to being governed at all
We love our superheroes because they refuse to give up on us. We can analyze them out of existence, kill them, ban them, mock them, and still they return, patiently reminding us of who we are and what we wish we could be.
"the play's the thing wherein I'll catch the conscience of the king,
2010/03/05 11:08:06
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Kilkrazy wrote:Cameron was aiming for a cheap populist headline when he said that. He said afterwards that the householder's use of force must be proportionate.
If I was in my house and a burglar got in, my response would depend on the exact situation.
If I could ambush the burglar from behind, I would try and cripple his leg, to get him on the floor so he could not escape or attack me.
If he was jumping at me face on, I would try to kill him as quickly as possible, as I would be in fear of my own life.
This case seems to have been the second situation. Three burglars attacked the defendant and he fought back in a state of extreme fear.
i have 2 small children at home. With that type of situation i dout you can think of disablind a theif and really have to go for broke. if you fudge up a disabling attempt and are yourself disabled as a cause, that leaves the threat alone with your children at the theifs mercy. i cant even tell you how scared that makes me. so for me its in with a knife or club till the preson stops breathing.
2010/03/05 11:09:39
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
You can have toy guns in the UK, they just stopped you buyings toy guns that look realistic unless there is a legitimate purpose.
Basically if you do reenactment or airsoft its fine to have a toy gun that looks like the real thing (or, for that matter a de-ac or blank firing real gun as appropriate for reenactment) but running round the streets with a black plastic glock is deemed to be asking for trouble.
As an interesting aside, in Holland they have a zero tolerance policy on guns of all forms and if you are seen with one the police are liable to shoot you as the assumption is that you are armed for real. If it turns out later they shot you for carrying a lump of plastic its your own fault for not paying attention...
While you sleep, they'll be waiting...
Have you thought about the Axis of Evil pension scheme?
2010/03/05 11:42:38
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
CitizenPrime wrote:You can't have toy guns in the UK?
wow... just... wow...
No, that would be ridiculous. You still took the claim at face value though, and I'm guessing much the same occurred when you heard that home invasion in Australia had increased because of our increases on gun control.
You might need to have a think about that.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2010/03/05 13:50:31
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
So it was the circumstances of the assault that determined the courts decision, not the colour of the skin of the home owner and defender that was the deciding factor? Maybe the white man isn't keeping the white man down?
Seeing as assault with a deadly weapon has a guarantted tarrif of 5 years , 30 months was a relative let off.
Also the kidnapped is still free, him being 'disadvantaged' and all. And yes that was an excuse.
Look at the press and you will see countless stories of have a go heroes or victims getting the law or CPS on their arses, and are often treated more harshly than the real criminals. And yes the justice system is politically dogmatised, just dont hold your breath waiting for them to admit it.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
reds8n wrote:
CitizenPrime wrote:You can't have toy guns in the UK?
Toy guns are legal, but wierd colouring is encouraged and possibly mandatory for some types of gun. this makes me wonder if you can disguise a real gun from cursory inspection as a plastic toy with a careful paintjob.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/05 16:58:30
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/03/05 17:42:39
Subject: Re:British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Orlanth wrote:Look at the press and you will see countless stories of have a go heroes or victims getting the law or CPS on their arses, and are often treated more harshly than the real criminals.
Have a go heroes?
And if someone assaults a person and there was no due cause, they are a 'real criminal'.
And yes the justice system is politically dogmatised, just dont hold your breath waiting for them to admit it.
It's a human institution, why wouldn't it be influenced by politics? Are you claiming that 'have a go heroes are treated more harshly than real criminals' isn't a political point of view?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2010/03/05 20:51:51
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
I say use knives for what they were intended for. Cutting meat of something already dead.
Use guns to kill live things as they were intended for.
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
2010/03/05 20:57:12
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Yea but where do rocket propelled chainsaws fit in?
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2010/03/05 21:00:27
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
--The whole concept of government granted and government regulated 'permits' and the accompanying government mandate for government approved firearms 'training' prior to being blessed by government with the privilege to carry arms in a government approved and regulated manner, flies directly in the face of the fundamental right to keep and bear arms.
“The Constitution is not an instrument for the government to restrain the people, it is an instrument for the people to restrain the government.”
2010/03/05 21:02:21
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Don't forget seatbelts and the efficacy of ziploc bags to keep moisture out.
You know tweenkies do have a shelf life.
Automatically Appended Next Post:
Kilkrazy wrote:You can't swing a rocket propelled chainsaw launcher in a typical London flat's kitchen, that is why you need knives.
you don't swing it baby. You launch it adn admire the artistry...
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/03/05 21:20:37
-"Wait a minute.....who is that Frazz is talking to in the gallery? Hmmm something is going on here.....Oh.... it seems there is some dispute over video taping of some sort......Frazz is really upset now..........wait a minute......whats he go there.......is it? Can it be?....Frazz has just unleashed his hidden weiner dog from his mini bag, while quoting shakespeares "Let slip the dogs the war!!" GG
-"Don't mind Frazzled. He's just Dakka's crazy old dude locked in the attic. He's harmless. Mostly."
-TBone the Magnificent 1999-2014, Long Live the King!
2010/03/05 21:51:34
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
People need to be taken to court every single time that they are the cause of another persons death, regardless of the circumstances during peace time. Why? Because self defence can only be determined by trial by peers. If this wasn't the case then there would be no check against people that murder and claim self defense.
Under english law self defense (which also covers the defense of another person) is an absolute defense to the charge of murder. If you can give enough evidence to cause reasonable doubt that you commited a murder then you will walk free. However it is the duty of the police and the CPS to gather their own evidence as to what happened. They have to do this just incase somebody lies and they have to do this in every case. Just claiming it was self defence doesn't get you off scott free, you have to prove it.
So people that defend their home do have to be treated in the same way as some criminals, because the justice system has to make sure that they arent criminals.
taking up the mission
Polonius wrote:Well, seeing as I literally will die if I ever lose a game of 40k, I find your approach almost heretical. If we were to play each other in a tournament, not only would I table you, I would murder you, your family, every woman you ever loved and burn down your house. I mean, what's the point in winning if you allow people that don't take the game seriously to live?
2010/03/06 14:42:27
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Reg: i understand your reasoning, but it still turns the victum into a criminal in the eyes of the press and the court. and it is known that those people that take matters of self drefence into there own hands are almost always treated as vigilanites. and that the courts treat vigilanties extreamly harsh. and the punishments given are almost always maximised.
The courst, police, press and society always treat the victum harshly. sometimes more harshly that the criminals. how many times in the past year, 2009? did you hear of a storey where the victum was treated like a criminal? i can remember at least 3, and if its just not self defence there are far more.
2010/03/06 14:58:24
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
And of all the cases cited so far the record is 1-0.
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2010/03/08 16:30:57
Subject: Re:British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Orlanth wrote:Look at the press and you will see countless stories of have a go heroes or victims getting the law or CPS on their arses, and are often treated more harshly than the real criminals.
Have a go heroes?
And if someone assaults a person and there was no due cause, they are a 'real criminal'.
Do you know what a 'have a go hero' is. it refers to someone who on thw spur of the moment defends someone else from a crime in progress. So if someone mugged a granny and you physically stopped it by immobilising or disabling the mugger , which is an assault, you are a have a go hero. If you walk on by you are something else I wont describe.
People who do this often get worse treatment than the muggers,usually because they are easier to prosecute having admitted being rather naughty to the poor disadvantaged muggers while explaining why.
sebster wrote:
And yes the justice system is politically dogmatised, just dont hold your breath waiting for them to admit it.
It's a human institution, why wouldn't it be influenced by politics? Are you claiming that 'have a go heroes are treated more harshly than real criminals' isn't a political point of view?
Bias is everywhere due to human weakness but there are extents of bias. Yes the legal system used to be a whole lot less corrupted and polticised than it is today. In yesteryear there were rotten apples in the barrel, now the barrel itself is rotten, dogma is the norm nowadays and to advance in our New Britain you have to swallow and speak it..
n'oublie jamais - It appears I now have to highlight this again.
It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion. By the juice of the brew my thoughts aquire speed, my mind becomes strained, the strain becomes a warning. It is by tea alone I set my mind in motion.
2010/03/08 22:13:08
Subject: Re:British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Australia (Recently ravaged by the Hive Fleet Ginger Overlord)
Orlanth wrote:
sebster wrote:
Orlanth wrote:Look at the press and you will see countless stories of have a go heroes or victims getting the law or CPS on their arses, and are often treated more harshly than the real criminals.
Have a go heroes?
And if someone assaults a person and there was no due cause, they are a 'real criminal'.
Do you know what a 'have a go hero' is. it refers to someone who on thw spur of the moment defends someone else from a crime in progress. So if someone mugged a granny and you physically stopped it by immobilising or disabling the mugger , which is an assault, you are a have a go hero. If you walk on by you are something else I wont describe.
People who do this often get worse treatment than the muggers,usually because they are easier to prosecute having admitted being rather naughty to the poor disadvantaged muggers while explaining why.
Again you fail to bring up any cases that actually support your view.
Smacks wrote:
After the game, pack up all your miniatures, then slap the guy next to you on the ass and say.
"Good game guys, now lets hit the showers"
2010/03/09 00:06:10
Subject: Re:British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Orlanth wrote:
Bias is everywhere due to human weakness but there are extents of bias. Yes the legal system used to be a whole lot less corrupted and polticised than it is today. In yesteryear there were rotten apples in the barrel, now the barrel itself is rotten, dogma is the norm nowadays and to advance in our New Britain you have to swallow and speak it..
I get the distinct impression that your perception of dogma within the state is more the result of your own, rather dogmatic, beliefs infecting your analysis of the outside world.
Life does not cease to be funny when people die any more than it ceases to be serious when people laugh.
2010/03/09 03:32:32
Subject: Re:British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Orlanth wrote:Do you know what a 'have a go hero' is. it refers to someone who on thw spur of the moment defends someone else from a crime in progress. So if someone mugged a granny and you physically stopped it by immobilising or disabling the mugger , which is an assault, you are a have a go hero. If you walk on by you are something else I wont describe.
It sounds a lot like something you’d read in a tabloid.
People who do this often get worse treatment than the muggers,usually because they are easier to prosecute having admitted being rather naughty to the poor disadvantaged muggers while explaining why.
What exactly is the legal system supposed to do? If someone kills or maims another person and then says it was self defence or in the defence of another, the police can’t just say ‘fair enough, he says he’s a have a go hero so that’s good enough for us’. There has to be an investigation to see if the have a go hero was actually acting in self defence.
And what does ‘treated worse’ mean? I think you’ll find the police are typically pretty obnoxious towards all suspects, but that’s an issue that’s way beyond self defence (and is in part understandable, given many of the people they deal with). Are you claiming that sentencing is heavier on have a go heroes than it is on muggers and burglars? If you think about it, the former (if its found there was no self defence) is to be convicted of manslaughter or murder, while the latter is to be convicted of a minor property crime... which do you think deserves the heavier sentence?
Now, if you think the legal standard for self defence was too strict, then there might be grounds for debate.
Bias is everywhere due to human weakness but there are extents of bias. Yes the legal system used to be a whole lot less corrupted and polticised than it is today. In yesteryear there were rotten apples in the barrel, now the barrel itself is rotten, dogma is the norm nowadays and to advance in our New Britain you have to swallow and speak it..
What is this based on?
“We may observe that the government in a civilized country is much more expensive than in a barbarous one; and when we say that one government is more expensive than another, it is the same as if we said that that one country is farther advanced in improvement than another. To say that the government is expensive and the people not oppressed is to say that the people are rich.”
Adam Smith, who must have been some kind of leftie or something.
2010/03/10 19:49:27
Subject: British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Perhaps not in the UK my friend,but unfortunatly in America burglary & home invasion do frequently happen.
The appartment complex I live in had over a dozen break ins in less than 2 months,and the police,when they finaly did arive, seemed less than interested in what many of the victiams had to report (most of those burglirized seemed to belive the cops attitude was due to the fact that the neighborhood is predominantly Hispanic).
Personaly,I have very little faith in "law enforcement" to protect my family,so I choose to equip myself to protect them myself.
I am both selfish and chaotic. I value self-gratification and control; I want to have things my way, preferably now. At best, I'm entertaining and surprising; at worst, I'm hedonistic and violent.
2010/03/10 22:12:56
Subject: Re:British justice fights back -- Killing burglar was not murder
Burglary – Widely believed as the gravest of property crimes, burglary is lower in US today than in the 80s. As of 2000, US has lower rates than Australia, Canada, Denmark, England, Finland, and Wales. It has higher rates than Korea, Saudi Arabia, and Spain.
FITZZ wrote:Perhaps not in the UK my friend,but unfortunatly in America burglary & home invasion do frequently happen.
The appartment complex I live in had over a dozen break ins in less than 2 months,and the police,when they finaly did arive, seemed less than interested in what many of the victiams had to report (most of those burglirized seemed to belive the cops attitude was due to the fact that the neighborhood is predominantly Hispanic).
Personaly,I have very little faith in "law enforcement" to protect my family,so I choose to equip myself to protect them myself.
Yeah, there are areas which are comparable in the UK - I've been burgled several times. I had a mate who was burgled so many times he ended up leaving a note out which said 'we have nothing left - stop breaking into our house'. I get it - I really do. There are rough areas in which you will be more likely to be a victim of crime in most countries. My point was that for most people, being victim of crime is not a common occurence - the perception of threat can often be grossly inflated until it barely resembles reality.
That said I don't blame you for having a gun if your area is 'less than salubrious', lets' say - I hated the area I was brought up in and would definitely have bought a gun if I had been legally allowed to back then. What I DID do was get the feth 'out of Dodge' as soon as I could, and I never looked back. I honestly think that taking oneself out of harm's way makes for a more peaceful life.
