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Already stated why you shouldn't replace the predator for a whirlwind. And again, like already stated, don't put powerfists on your sarges, take a melta or flamer instead of the plasma, and take multimeltas instead of the rocket. I don't think the epistolary upgrade is really necessary, but you may want to drop him..

The biggest thing, do not just take one land raider. You have to either take 2 (to make the investment worth it). The pair makes it much more difficult to handle either. If your opponent concentrates on one, he ignores the other. And if he tries to fire at both, its going to much mroe difficult to take them down. You also can't get away from 2 raiders, you can get away from one. Take 2, or take none. If you take none, this opens up a huge chunk of points to spend on other things. Things like dreads that will fill the close combat hole that the termies leave, or give them two TL autocannons for a more powerful shooting role. If you go without the land raiders, you don't have anywhere to put the librarian, so you need to find somewhere for him to go, but at that point it may be better to take a different HQ choice.

So I basically just repeated what I said the first time.. lol.


So you're looking at something like this:

Librarian 140
Null Zone
Vortex of Doom
Terminator armour w/ Storm Shield

5 TH/SS Terminators 200

5 TH/SS Terminators 460
Land Raider Cruasader
Multi-Melta

10 Tactical Marines 205
Multi-melta
Flamer
Rhino

10 Tactical Marines 205
Multi-melta
Flamer
Rhino

10 Tactical Marines 205
Multi-melta
Flamer
Rhino

Land Raider Crusader 260
Multi-Melta

Predator 85
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Predator 85
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1845

OR:

Master of the Forge 120
Conversion Beamer

Dreadnought 125
2 TL Autocannons

Dreadnought 125
2 TL Autocannons

Dreadnought 125
2 TL Autocannons

10 Tactical Marines 205
Multi-Melta
Flamer

10 Tactical Marines 205
Multi-Melta
Flamer

10 Tactical Marines 205
Multi-Melta
Flamer

5 Scouts 145
Telion
Heavy Bolter w/ Hellfire

2 Land Speeders 140
MM/HF

2 Land Speeders 140
MM/HF

1 Land Speeder 70

Predator 85
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Predator 85
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

Predator 85
Heavy Bolter Sponsons

1850

You can swap out a speeder for some more scouts if you're worried about the squad size. You could pick up some combiweapons on your sarges as well. I think you're just in the middle of the two right now, making your list lose overall effectiveness. I just think the two above lists have more focus than yours. See what I mean?

x2 Librarians - 140 each
Null Zone, Gate of Infinity
terminator armor
storm shield

x3 Tactical Squads - 215 each
plasma gun
missile launcher
chainsword (sergeant)
Rhino

x2 Terminator Assault Squads - 460 each
thunder hammers and storm shields
Land Raider w/ multi-melta

There's nothing in the land raiders..? You take the land raider to carry the smashy smashy unit.. Sorry, when I said 'take two land raiders, or none' I meant 'take two land raiders full of superawesomekillyterminators or none' lol.

Hmm. But maybe.. with the two librarians you can do some silly stuff with gate of infinity.. if you combine it with some locator beacons, and a plethora of melta/flamer weaponry. It's a bit unorthodox, and I've seen it done.. I just don't remember exactly how..

I have to disagree on the Whirlwind. You're seriously overlooking the fact that it can hide from enemy fire, unlike predators, which require LOS. In addition, the Whirlwind can ignore cover saves, so light troops dug in will be less of a problem.

The last list posted is a bit spam-ish, which is very un-Ultramarines like fluffwise. I'd really go with the bikes over the extra terminator/LR squad. I'm picturing a game against mech eldar and it's not pretty.

I would try running with one LR before concluding that you really need two.

Sorry. I was updating my list. I didn't realize you had posted.

Mad rabbit- I'm not overlooking it, and you don't want to hide the predator from enemy fire, you want to present him with as many targets as possible. Is it better against light infantry in cover? Yes, I think we all know that the whirlwind is great against those. But that's the only thing that it excels at. Against monstrous creatures its worthless. It has no chance against vehicles, (the pred is pretty good at gunning down things like speeders), and isn't as good against any other type of infantry. You gain armour 13 and tactical flexibility against pretty much any other unit type. The predator is far superior, and they cost the same too.

Fluffwise, ultramarines would bring what is most effective for the job. If that means bring 3/4 of the same thing, then I'm sure they would do it.

The double raider list isn't awesome against mech eldar, but it isn't that horrible either. If the opponent wants to drop off firedragons, he's going to have to come within range of all those multimeltas, so the marine player will probably able to slow down at least 2/3. (if the eldar player takes 3 that is). And even eldar aren't going to be able to get away from both raiders.

I have played with a single raider, and I'm telling you that at that point it's just a huge point sink that never does anything reliably. Yes, if you want one raider, you do indeed need 2.

Although, I do think my second list is the superior of the two. But if you want superkillyunits of death, thats the way to do it. lol

Captain - 185
relic blade
digital weapons
hellfire rounds
bike

x2 Space Marine Bike Squads - 320 each
power fist (sergeant)
x2 plasma guns
Attack Bike w/ multi-melta

Terminator Assault Squad - 500
thunder hammers and storm shields
Land Raider w/ multi-melta

x3 Land Speeders - 90 each
heavy bolter
Typhoon missile launcher

x3 Predators - 85 each
side sponson heavy bolters

What do you think of these lists?

Librarian - 140
terminator armor
storm shield

x3 Tactical Squads - 215 each
plasma gun
missile launcher
chainsword (sergeant)
Rhino

Terminator Assault Squad - 475
thunder hammers and storm shields
Land Raider w/ multi-melta and extra armor

x6 Attack Bikes - 50 each
multi-melta

-----------------------------------

Predator - 120
side sponson lascannons

or

Vindicator - 115

-----------------------------------

x2 Predators - 85 each
side sponson heavy bolters


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or...

Librarian - 165
Epistolary
plasma pistol

x3 Tactical Squads - 290 each
plasma gun
lascannon
power fist (sergeant)
Razorback w/ lascannon and twin-linked plasma gun

x6 Attack Bikes - 50 each
multi-melta

Land Raider Crusader - 275
multi-melta
extra armor

x2 Predators - 120 each
side sponson lascannons

First option with the Las-sponson pred is your best bet.

Chaplain - 130
terminator armor
storm bolter

x2 Tactical Squads - 240 each
plasma gun
multi-melta
power fist (sergeant)
Rhino

Scout Squad - 150
Telion
sniper rifles
missile launcher
camo cloaks

Terminator Assault Squad - 475
thunder hammers and storm shields
Land Raider w/ multi-melta and extra armor

x2 Assault Squads - 245 each
x2 flamers
pair of lightning claws and meltabombs (sergeant)

Vindicator - 125
siege shield

What do you guys think about the chaplain? Any other comments?

Chaplain - 130
terminator armor
storm bolter

x2 Tactical Squads - 240 each
plasma gun
multi-melta
power fist (sergeant)
Rhino

Scout Squad - 150
Telion
sniper rifles
missile launcher
camo cloaks

Terminator Assault Squad - 475
thunder hammers and storm shields
Land Raider w/ multi-melta and extra armor

Assault Squad - 240
x2 flamers
pair of lightning claws (sergeant)
Rhino

x3 Vindicators - 125 each
siege shield

Why would you ever put an assault squad in a Rhino?

The assault squads in rhinos seem to fit better with the mechanized feel of my list. What do you think of this list versus the last one?

Chaplain - 130
terminator armor
storm bolter

Tactical Squad - 240
plasma gun
multi-melta
power fist (sergeant)
Rhino

Scout Squad - 150
Telion
sniper rifles
missile launcher
camo cloaks

Terminator Assault Squad - 475
thunder hammers and storm shields
Land Raider w/ multi-melta and extra armor

x2 Assault Squads - 240 each
x2 flamers
pair of lightning claws (sergeant)
Rhino

x3 Vindicators - 125 each
siege shield


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Or...

Chaplain - 130
terminator armor
storm bolter

x2 Tactical Squads - 240 each
plasma gun
missile launcher
power fist (sergeant)
Rhino

Terminator Assault Squad - 475
Land Raider w/ multi-melta and extra armor

x2 Ironclad Dreadnoughts - 195 each
heavy flamer
meltagun
Ironclad assault launchers
Drop Pod

x3 Vindicators - 125 each
siege shield