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Albatross wrote:Perception is literally everything.

Perception is nothing, and it is certainly no author.

Albatross wrote:Perception is literally everything. I'm willing to bet that inter-subjective analysis would throw up more instances of percieved racist symbology than anything else, with regard to that particular flag.

With regard to anything.

Though perception isn't everything. If it were, it would also be nothing. When an absolute is true, so must be its negation.

Albatross wrote:
What the Confederate flag MEANT is totally irrelevant - what it MEANS now is what's important. The swastika is actually a perfect example, as it was once a symbol of peace. Not any more!

Well, that much is true.

ShumaGorath wrote:

This sums things up nicely.

Although i would add that i am more offended by the numpties in the white, pointy hats than i am by the flag. The KKK and it's inherent ideology is a far more potent symbol of racism than the flag which seems to have become representative of racism by association rather than by original design.

Shadowbrand wrote:Is it because society's just too narrow minded to realize the south fought for more then just Slavery. I was just watching Dukes of Hazard and it hit me.

I also call awesome on legal home-brewing.

So why do you think it's still a racist symbol?

The battleflag was used as a symbol of resistance by the Klan. Enough said.

sebster wrote:

Manchu wrote:Sebster: Your accusation of revisionism is itself revisionist. States' rights and slavery are obviously not mutually exclusive and while the former is often trotted out to blunt the latter these issues were two sides of the same coin. It might even be more appropriate to say that they were the same side of the coin.

The state's right at issue was the right to allow citizens to own slaves, and it was the only right at issue. No-one was worrying about gambling or anything. The rights of each state is just an effort to deflect from the real issue - the right to own slaves.

Sorry, but this made me participate for one reason: That wasn't the only state's right issue. They were also fighting for the right to secede from the union. Yes, they wanted to secede to protect their right to own slaves, but that doesn't make it less of an issue during the war. If it was ONLY about Slavery, there would have been no war: the north didn't want to go to war and the only reason southern states attacked Army property was because they wouldn't leave on the basis that states didn't have the right to secede.

Why don't you try reading some historical texts about the war and the reasons it started before speaking?

Technically they offered to free the slaves if they'd fight with them. Either way, I've always wanted a good Confederacy vs. Nazi battle using a historical system.

It wasn't slavery, it was over the states right to have slavery.

It wasn't about slavery, it was about the right to secede to continue to have slavery.

I sense a common theme.

Of course it wasn't a simple affair, but slavery is the shadow that hangs over all of it.

Plus the fact the damnyankees were jealous of the superior Southern cuisine. I don't make the facts up, I just report 'em.

Frazzled wrote:Plus the fact the damnyankees were jealous of the superior Southern cuisine. I don't make the facts up, I just report 'em.

I thought was a given.

Have you seen what those barbarians in the north do to vegtables?!

Well,here in the South there is much debate as to the "meaning" behind displaying the confederate battle flag,some cry racism,some cry "pride in southern heritage...but we ain't racist".
Now,I've personaly know people who have confederate flag bumper stickers,wear hats displaying the flag,etc and never heard them utter a single racial slur,even after 15 miller lights.
On the flipside,I've personaly fought racist skinheads who have had that flag sewn onto their jackets and seen the klan marching around waving it (as in Shumas post).
Now,I showed this thread to my Girlfriend and her Brother (both who are African American)and to qoute them.
"Usualy when I see the confederate flag displayed on someones property,or on their person,I will assume they are in some way racist,however,I find this to not always be the case.
I'm not so much offended by the confederate flag,it's just a flag,what offends me is the frame of mind behind alot of the people waving it,the flag itself isn't offensive,it's what it is being used to symbolize that is."
I tend to agree with them.

Ahtman wrote:It wasn't slavery, it was over the states right to have slavery.

It wasn't about slavery, it was about the right to secede to continue to have slavery.

I sense a common theme.

Of course it wasn't a simple affair, but slavery is the shadow that hangs over all of it.

I was trying to develop an argument based on the concepts of sophistry.

I think you nailed it much better than I could have done.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

FITZZ wrote: Well,here in the South there is much debate as to the "meaning" behind displaying the confederate battle flag,some cry racism,some cry "pride in southern heritage...but we ain't racist".
Now,I've personaly know people who have confederate flag bumper stickers,wear hats displaying the flag,etc and never heard them utter a single racial slur,even after 15 miller lights.
On the flipside,I've personaly fought racist skinheads who have had that flag sewn onto their jackets and seen the klan marching around waving it (as in Shumas post).
Now,I showed this thread to my Girlfriend and her Brother (both who are African American)and to qoute them.
"Usualy when I see the confederate flag displayed on someones property,or on their person,I will assume they are in some way racist,however,I find this to not always be the case.
I'm not so much offended by the confederate flag,it's just a flag,what offends me is the frame of mind behind alot of the people waving it,the flag itself isn't offensive,it's what it is being used to symbolize that is."
I tend to agree with them.

Yes, this is true.

Any symbol can be tainted by its use by some kind of objectionable people.

If pictures say a thousand words, how about political cartoons? :

Anyway I think this thread should be closed.

The reasons for the ambivalent feelings towards the Confederate flag have been made clear.

There is no point 'piling on' and insulting southerners in general.