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Ailaros wrote:It's more points effective for the guard to just take more troops with more meltaguns and let them slam into your lines than it is to spend even more points to feebly attempt to stop them with little benefit to that expenditure if they're not a transport-spam army.

I have to disagree. As an IG player, I've never found it pleasant when my opponent gets to "slam into my lines". Far from being feeble, I believe IG are one of the few armies that can take enough medium-high strength long range shots to threaten both Transports and infantry alike from a distance.

Don't argue with the man, kadun. He's the ultimate authority on all things Imperial Guard.

kadun wrote:As an IG player, I've never found it pleasant when my opponent gets to "slam into my lines". Far from being feeble, I believe IG are one of the few armies that can take enough medium-high strength long range shots to threaten both Transports and infantry alike from a distance.

well, I never said it was pleasant. The guard does have long-range stuff against vehicles, but transports are so cheap compared to the amount of points you need to spend on guns to be effective against said transports, that it creates opportunity cost problems. Better to take more stuff and bite the bullet when it gets manhandled by a transport rush than to attempt to stop the rush itself (especially since this also makes your army more effective when you're NOT facing against transport rushes).

Well, the meta game 'round my parts is mech/nob bikers. To take anything other than melta is too drop my pants and bend over for the nob biker lists. But I realize that not everyone is in the unfortunate position of fighting nob bikers every other game. My build generally takes alot of pie plates and/or plasma in the heavy support department (5 basilisks and an executioner being a personal favourite), and melta/autocannons in my veteran squads. With that magic recipe you have the ability to deal with every army out there.

So in my opinion too much melta is when it is at the expense of your heavy support, but if your Heavy support is maxed out then there is no such thing!

Well, the only thing similar to melta we have in the heavy support department is the Breacher Medusa, which is actually pretty damn effective, but overly specialized to bring in an all-comers list. So short-changing your heavy support for moar melta rarely happens.

Battle Tanks, Executioners and Manticores are all great generalists and will deal with bikers in swift order, usually only allowing them cover saves. Executioners are actually the weaker of the three options, as it does not insta-kill them, but it often generates more hits (than the Battle Tank anyway).

Battle Tanks, Executioners and Manticores are all great generalists and will deal with bikers in swift order, usually only allowing them cover saves. Executioners are actually the weaker of the three options, as it does not insta-kill them, but it often generates more hits (than the Battle Tank anyway).

Ya I know. I take the Executioner because it is so good against everything else. Pop the rhino with the melta guns and rain down plasma!

I only run 2 in 1500, one in a Vendetta, and one in a chimera.

Oh, I know, where the Battle Tank is dirt cheap but frequently will scatter and hit jack squat, the Executioner will almost always do at least something. And frequently it will really mess up any TEQ/MEQ/MC/light transport that dares show its face.

Oh, I know, where the Battle Tank is dirt cheap but frequently will scatter and hit jack squat, the Executioner will almost always do at least something. And frequently it will really mess up any TEQ/MEQ/MC/light transport that dares show its face.

Thats actually part of the reason I like running 3 basilisks. 3 ordinance templates statistically will get 1 hit and bring the hurt to what I want dee ee dee DED!

Basilisk is probably my least favorite heavy support choice. The ridiculous minimum range of the weapon actually means you're rarely, if ever, shooting indirectly. With the majority of opponents being mechanized lists that focus on the mid-short range, they can literally be "under your guns" in a turn. So if I'm going to be shooting stuff directly anyway, I'll take a Medusa.

The minimum range is also why I have issues with the colossus. While 24" minimum range isn't the end of the world (it never stopped me from using a Manticore, as you can park way back and affect your opponent's half the table with indirect fire), the fact that you can't fire directly once that line has been crossed quickly invalidates the tank as anything more than a fragile heavy flamer platform.

Its quite simple: Too much melta is were you draw the line, so the army can keep some fun and fluff.

Really, the meltagun is a cheap weapon with no serious weakness. Its not just specialised against vehicules, you can shoot space marines or even small infantry in the face with it just fine. Its safe, and dirt cheap in the hands of an imperial guard.

I try to resist the temptation and spread some Grenade launchers and Plasma`s around. But everything seem stronger when it carry a meltagun around. Unless you somehow have a magic ability that allow you to stay far, far away from your ennemy for most of the game, things get inside 18'' very fast. If you just want to win, then anything that can hold a special weapon and isnt dedicated to flaming stuff can use one for the points.

Now, you should stop buying MODELS and TRANSPORTS who's role is only to be good at carrying meltaguns when your army start to be made only of that. The guns are good, but an army of melta-filled transport is kind of boring, and fragile.

There is absolutely no reason to take a Basilisk in the current guard codex. There are just so many better options, it is the worst of them.

I am not sure that it is possible to have 'too much melta' but anything over 12/15 is a little much. There is a point in the game where meltas just aren't going to help you any more - either because all the hard targets are dead or you're so overwhelmed where it doesn't matter.

I've gotten in the habit of putting plasma and a las cannon on my command squads just so i have a little more incentive to keep them out of harms way.

he ridiculous minimum range of the weapon actually means you're rarely, if ever, shooting indirectly. With the majority of opponents being mechanized lists that focus on the mid-short range, they can literally be "under your guns" in a turn.

Well then they are driving straight into my melta fest. So it's all good!

Meltas are only really necessary to deal with Raider Rush. I've never had more than 12 even in 'Ard Boyz lists. For anything smaller, 3 units with meltas (usually 3 each in guard armies) is more than enough to deal with Raiders. This is especially true for Manticores, which can crack those raiders pretty reliably (multiple templates means usually at least one hits, 10 +2d6 pick the highest means you usually penetrate).

Other tanks are better dealt with Vendettas, infantry heavy weapons, and in a pinch, multilasers and massed GLs.

wait, basilisks aren't BAD. They still pack a S9 AP3 large blast template. They're just not as good as things like manticores. That's why the cost so much less. I mean, griffons are much worse than manticores, which is why you can buy them nearly 3:1. And while the minimum range is annoying, you can always fire them directly. In this case they become a leman russ, except with worse armor and 35 points cheaper.

And I agree with Archimus. The only way that adding more meltaguns is bad is if it interferes with your ability to handle the things that the meltagun isn't good at.

As a side note, I second the idea of Inq.Lord with Hood and 3 plasma vet/2mystic retunue. I actually run one with psycannon, 3 plasma vets, 3 acolytes with combi plasma and 2 mystics in a rhino. You can do fun wound trickery with the acolytes, and 6 rapid fire plasma + 3 psycannon shots can wreck anything big and bad that pops into your lines. Bear in mind, it costs ~230 points, but at 2000 points it has always served me well by murdering many times its own points, and acting as a strong "STAY AWAY" asset.

Stay away? Why, when a single unit of rapid firing marines would leave a pile of dead bodies? Psycannons are way too expensive for what you get, as are acolytes with one-shot combi-plasmas. I like my cheapo 140-point variant. It does everything it needs to do, and if it dies, who cares?

yeah, that sounds like something that can be cleaned up by a basilisk shell real quick.

Generally speaking, durability isn't as scary as overwhelming damage, and people would fear 3 squads of 8 rough riders or a pair of basilisks more. Not to say that that squad doesn't have a lot of firepower, but it doesn't have a lot for its points.

Speaking of which, meltaguns are really scary. I have seen them create virtual 12" no-drive zones for transports and other light vehicles. You know your opponent is going to have to think twice before transport rushing straight into a hedge of melta (or charging with MCs, terminators, or other really expensive units). The bigger the hedge, the better.

I find that meltaguns, despite being good, aren't the best as they need to be within 12" to do anything, and 6" to make a lot of hurt. Therefore, you will be unable to do a lot to the vehicle because you might want to attack the vehicle with the meltagun again, and then you'll die.

Meltaguns are assault weapons, though, which means they have an 18" effective radius. A single model with a meltagun standing in the middle of a 6x4' board can threaten roughly a third of the area of the board. In two turns, on foot, it can threaten up to 80% of the board (yay for sprinting). Even out of melta range, they're still a S8 weapon, and they can still take orders.

And this is assuming they're on foot, and not deepstriking, outflanking, or in a transport (or in an outflanking transport, etc.) Fifth ed. has made it easier than ever to get special weapons where they need to be that range isn't really that much of an issue any more. That and the new cover rules really make this the game of special weapons and super-heavy weapons. As such, so long as your 10 pt. meltagun upgrades aren't hurting your ability to take artillery (or enough scoring units), then you're fine.