Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

I've been dwelling over this myself and looking at streamlining Mech IG builds around 1750 lists. I've been looking at 2 Chimelta squads plus two identical squads in Vendetta's. What do you guys think? Where does the line of balanced and overboard lie?

I pack 4 onto the CCS because it "has" to be in the army and the orders that it can give itself make an armor kill as sure a thing as you can get.

After that, I try to have 2 other melta squads, either Vets or Inquisitors with Warriors with meltas, in the army and back-up ranged anti tank in the form of Hydras and Vendettas.

"too much" melta? what?

So, with all of those heavy bolters your list is carrying, you're already good against light infantry, and the fact that you have your own horde of transports really negates any enemy transports (as in, the advantage is neutralised, even if the vehicles aren't). This means you've got to be able to handle heavy vehicles and heavy infantry.

Personally, I'd just keep packing in the meltas to be really, really good against heavy vehicles, and then have the meltas and heavy bolters overlap to kill heavy infantry. If you're really concerned, then just add a couple of artillery pieces to your list. The only hole in this coverage is MCs, specifically if they bring too many for your meltaguns (and artillery are useless against them). As such, if they are really a concern of yours, then get like 1 plasma-based squad, or 2 if you're really, really afraid.

A 3x melta vet with 2x heavy bolters can put down a couple of straggling marines without even disembarking. Assuming you keep your chimeras concentrated and have enough other stuff to soften them up before you get there, tac squads shouldnt' be TOO big of a menace.

I wish 3x melta Vet squads with 2x heavy bolters existed.

I'm sorry, it's actually 3x melta 3x heavy bolters. The vets bring the meltaguns and a HB, and the chimera that they're in (this is a mechanized list after all) brings the other two.

No, you shouldn't replace the Multi-laser. It is a good gun, and better than the Heavy Bolter in average application. This is one of those scenarios.

2 HBs on a chimera? Whatever happened to the higher-strength multilaser?

Anyway, I'd say more than 3 squads worth of melta is overkill. I personally run only 2 in 1850, because, really, you only need melta to "guarantee" a kill on AV14. As Guard especially, you will rarely if ever be in a situation in which you have to desperately take out an AV14 tank at close range (unless you're playing at lower point levels and are not able to afford nice things like Vendettas and Manticores). Unless you get caught up in "the melta craze", melta is more insurance than anything else.

I disagree about the multilaser, but that's beside the point.

The point is that there are very few substitutes for the meltagun, whereas heavy infantry can be killed by a large combination of other weapons. Having not enough anti-heavy tank means that there are going to be unhurtable tanks wreaking havoc. Not having enough anti-heavy-infantry means you don't kill as much as would be desired. Plus, all of those heavy bolters can help you with heavy infantry, but they can't help with heavy tanks. As such, I'd always err on the side of more melta.

Wait, are we talking about melta or heavy bolters? I'm confused now.

My point is that IG (and Tau as well) don't have to rely on melta nearly as much as other armies (despite the conventional "take 6 veteran units 3 meltaguns each" wisdom) because they have good chances of destroying heavy tanks just by banging on them with S10 weapons.

A list with no melta is a bad idea, and I would go so far to say that melta is a mandatory component of a successful IG army, but a lot of people seem to go overboard with it and then waste it vaporising a few infantrymen a turn.

Never enough.

When would them be "too much"? If you only take meltas but field no flamers or plasmas at all, that would be "too much".

i only use 2 melta vet squads in my 2k list

one in a vendetta which i scout move straight across the borad for a first turn landraider kill
and a secound in a chimera with demolitions
i have never ever needed m,ore then that
and if your lucky andkill tanks that don't have troops in (russ' for eg)
you can get back in the vendetta and go again
everyone needs a vendetta/valk melta vet squad
you'll be surprised how difficult it is for your opponent to counter it

just an observation...

I used to run 4 melta CCS. I like them, a lot. they killed most things dead. then I started running into people that didn't always take vehicles that drove near me and things like mawlocs, ds termicides and outflanking sentinels started showing up.

i then switched to 2 melta, 2 plasma CCS. And for 10 points i have a unit that i won't leave home without. 75% of what shows up in my backfield gets dealt with by that unit. the extra plasma shots, TL with BiD, really do damage to big things. FoMT for anything skulking through terrain. And if melta is the right tool, then 2 TL is often enough to kill it and the extra back up of 4 plasma shots cover any shortfalls enough to make it all worth it.

If its a LR coming into the area, that's what the 3 melta vets are for....

I never run 4 meltas in command squads, because re-rolling that order at a key moment has won me enough games to consider them all but mandatory even for fully mechanized lists.

The 'Ard Boyz list I'm preparing for May has 11. Three with Al'Rahem, three in his combined infantry squad, three in a Veteran Demolition squad, and 2 in Creed's CCS. The list also has two Manticores and a Demolisher for tank-cracking (although I'm strongly considering ditching the Demolisher for an Executioner, as I expect a lot of FNP Marines.

I never leave the house with less than 6, but never go more than 9 at 2000 points or less.

If I could my commander would be made out of Melta-guns and every guardsman would replace their eyes with Melta-guns, never enough Melta-guns.

On a lighter note carrying the multi laser is better for me because of the higher strength I find more useful then the ap, in general things you are denying with armor of four usually have a fifty fifty chance of dying anyways.

The answer depends on how you mean...

If you mean "how many Meltaguns in a Meltagun squad" the answer is "as many as possible, maybe more."

If you mean "how many Meltaguns in my army" the answer is more like "2-3 squads worth."

To me, the second question is far more useful to ask. I don't think that just taking Vets and giving every single one possible a Meltagun is a good plan.

You need to determine how many vehicles you expect to face, how many Chimeras you expect to lose (and when) and then come out with enough Meltas that you can be unloading a suitable salvo (at least 3 at BS4) to kill any tank.

I think 3x squads is a good number. More is probably overkill, less is possible only if you've got other good sources of tank killing, which Guard certainly do, all over the place.

Thanks for the bundle of helpful replies guys, it seems to have gotten some kind of debate going. To clear a few points up;

- I don't mean: "How many guys per squad should have melta guns?" I mean "How many squads should I be running with full melta?"
- My CCS currently is triple plasma medic.
- I was planning on running 4x triple melta squads. Two in Chimera's, two in Vendetta's.

With all this in mind, do you guys think I should switch the CCS over to Melta and run two vet units for the 3 you guys seem to think is best? Should I drop the Chimera melta guns for something else? Is 4 melta squads 'too much melta'? Should I consider running a second CCS for Melta (I currently run a Brother Captain for Psychic Hood, that'd be what I'm dropping for double CCS)?

Once again, thanks for the replies, keep up the debate!

Why do you want a double CCS? If you're not running guard on foot, one is sufficient for the handful of orders you might issue in the game. Spend the points on troops before a second CCS. Even a Primaris Psyker would be a great choice.

Unless your local meta is simply CHOCKFULL of Land Raiders, 4 squads is a bit much. Honestly, two or three melta squads (counting the CCS) is sufficient for games under 2000 as long as you bring some long range anti-tank in the form of Vendettas/Manticores/Breachers/lotsa autocannons.

I would recommend swapping the CCS over to meltas (medic is too expensive, considering it costs as much as an advisor AND you lose a special slot), and then the chimera-riding vets to 3x plasma and autocannon. That will give you squads that function as a firebase over longer ranges than <12".

I've never seen melta-vet spam armies do particularly well. They are meant to be sacrificial units to get rid of enemy transports (so the rest of your army can get at the troops hiding inside) and heavy support vehicles (so you can outshoot them at long ranges). Annihilating all of your opponent's transports is meaningless if you do it within rapid fire/assault range of all your troops.

Think of enemy vehicles as cans, and the troops inside as delicious sockeye salmon (or whatever canned food you may prefer). Bringing all melta vets is akin to bringing a boxful of can openers, but not a single fork.

I run two Vet squads with 3 meltas, mounted in Chimeras. I find this gives them the speed to get upto the chosen target, and the punch to stop it. I also have a CCS in a Chimera rolling up next to them to deliver that ever-so-awesome 'BiD' order.

Mine is a 1500 list, however, but a minimum of two dedicated melta squads is recommended. Bring another for every 250 points up as the liklihood of facing AV13-14 increases exponentially.

@ Gavrock.

Good shout on the CCS build. I run 4 x plasma though am considering dropping one for a medic. I normally send them MC/Dread hunting though so 'BiD' also works in their favour. I would not swap the plasma for melta. You need to be able to reliably kill MEQ/Terms, and hosing those Assault Terms with plasma after your Vets pop the LR is a sure-fire way of doing it!

L. Wrex

I prefer meltas over plasmas in Command Squads for a number of reasons:

1. They are a small squad as it is, so having them die from overheats (~11% chance per shot, medic cuts this by half but it's still dangerous) is bad. Veterans can accept losses easier.
2. They are a fragile unit, and plasmas make them quite expensive (especially with medic).
3. They never have to worry about being out of range to use BiD.
4. As melta missions are frequently suicidal (you want to kill the Raider as far away from your lines as possible), the command squads are cheaper and thus more expendable (talking platoons here, mainly)
5. Finally, plasmas have more synergy with lasguns than meltas if you're just targetting regular infantry (or assault terminators for that matter). With small squads, you aren't wasting anything, except maybe a laspistol (though I like giving my Company Commanders plasma pistols).

So rather than pop the tank with veterans, and hose them with the command squad's plasma guns, I'd rather pop them with the command squad and hose the contents with las/plas.

Taking on board everything that has been saidso far, I've re-evaluated my list. I'm still open to opinions, but looking over this newer list, I feel I've got a little more punch than I had before. Previous incarnation was:

CCS - 3x Plasma, Medic
4x Vets - 3x Melta - 2 in Chimera and 2 in Vendetta

Now it looks a little more like this:

CCS - 4x Melta
2x Vets - 3x Melta - Mounted in Vendetta's
2x Vets - 3x Plasma & 1x Autocannon - Mounted in Chimera

The rest of my list contains the usual suspects of Sly, Hydras and Manticores, plus I also have a Grey Knight Hero for a Psychic Hood. I've had to rearrange my plans for deployment (ie I'm not going to keep my hood in with the suicidal melta command chimera) but as previously mentioned, I'm happier with this list. I have more guns and feel like it's a little scarier than the previous list. Keep the comments rolling, debate is healthy!

Terminus wrote:...

We're essentially arguing the same thing here, merely reversed. I prefer plasma in my CCS as they are BS4 and you can take four of them. I prefer to have meltas on my vets as, especially in the mech-heavy army of today, meltas are more desirable and thus the ablative wounds help to keep them going, rather than losing Orders AND a melta or two to simple bolter fire if the CCS' Chimera goes down.

I would hesitate giving PCS' meltaguns. They cannot BiD unless ordered by a CCS, and their BS of 3 makes hitting slightly riskier. I prefer flamers and GLS on PCS myself.

L. Wrex

I also like plasma in the CCS.

I take melta on both vets and PCS, however. 4 BS3 meltaguns is the same as 3 BS4 meltaguns, and I find a lot of times its better to simply get a 125-point mounted meltaPCS than a 155-point meltavet unit - 30 points is a bit much if all the other vets will do is act as ablative wounds.

sourclams wrote:I wish 3x melta Vet squads with 2x heavy bolters existed.

It does; Harker FTW!

I think 2 maybe 3 squads should suffice, I only have 1 in my 1850 list and that is on my second CCS

Kommissar Kel wrote:

sourclams wrote:I wish 3x melta Vet squads with 2x heavy bolters existed.

It does; Harker FTW!

I think 2 maybe 3 squads should suffice, I only have 1 in my 1850 list and that is on my second CCS

But when you add in Harker, that sqd becomes: 1 too pricey for me
2 too much of a fire magnet.

imho, as always.

Lycaeus Wrex wrote:

Terminus wrote:...

We're essentially arguing the same thing here, merely reversed. I prefer plasma in my CCS as they are BS4 and you can take four of them. I prefer to have meltas on my vets as, especially in the mech-heavy army of today, meltas are more desirable and thus the ablative wounds help to keep them going, rather than losing Orders AND a melta or two to simple bolter fire if the CCS' Chimera goes down.

I would hesitate giving PCS' meltaguns. They cannot BiD unless ordered by a CCS, and their BS of 3 makes hitting slightly riskier. I prefer flamers and GLS on PCS myself.

L. Wrex

Well, I never take four special weapons, because I always use the vox casters. I also frequently use the banner. I also don't want to lose members of a 5-man unit to overheats, and possibly triggering a command check (very likely if you rapid fire, statistically that's two overheats for 3 plasmaguns, much less 4), and CCSs overpay for carapace even more than veterans. That said, I do see your point. The CCS with meltas cannot be used in the same way as veterans, as you can't suicidally rush them forward, and with veterans you can hide half the unit behind the transport and ensure a cover save (go to ground for a 3+!). I think the main reason for meltas is that I've been using Straken a lot, who works a lot better with them. In my Creed list, they are insurance against that transport that sneaks past my flanking forces and hits my front lines (Creed normally hides out calling down shots until those meltas are needed). Creed's squad pop the transport, and the Inquisitor's warriors melt their face off. Of course, I've never let a Raider sneak by (Manticores, yay!), and rapid firing plasmaguns are almost as good vs. dreads and transports as meltas. I'm going to see if I can scrounge up 10 points to upgrade the two meltas to plasmas. In conjunction with the Inquisitor's retinue, that's 5 plasmaguns acting as a counter-attack volley vs stuff that engages my front line (suck it, FNP blood angels!).

Random thought: I really hate the fact that medics aren't advisors. I'd go 3x plasma, 1 vox, medic for CCSs every single time. Oh yeah, I always give the Company Commander a plasma pistol. It's only 10 points and he has the wounds to survive that unlucky overheat.

Gavrock wrote:Taking on board everything that has been saidso far, I've re-evaluated my list. I'm still open to opinions, but looking over this newer list, I feel I've got a little more punch than I had before. Previous incarnation was:

CCS - 3x Plasma, Medic
4x Vets - 3x Melta - 2 in Chimera and 2 in Vendetta

Now it looks a little more like this:

CCS - 4x Melta
2x Vets - 3x Melta - Mounted in Vendetta's
2x Vets - 3x Plasma & 1x Autocannon - Mounted in Chimera

The rest of my list contains the usual suspects of Sly, Hydras and Manticores, plus I also have a Grey Knight Hero for a Psychic Hood. I've had to rearrange my plans for deployment (ie I'm not going to keep my hood in with the suicidal melta command chimera) but as previously mentioned, I'm happier with this list. I have more guns and feel like it's a little scarier than the previous list. Keep the comments rolling, debate is healthy!

Out of curiosity, why did you go for the Grey Knight Hero? He sets you back 81 points. For 83 points, you can get an Inquisitor Lord with a hood and three mystics (the third is to fulfill the henchman requirement). Not only is he just as effective vs. psychic powers, but he also protects you from deep strikers landing behind you and wrecking your heavy support. You also get access to another chimera for that lovely AV12 saturation. Finally, instead of the third mystic, I would strongly STRONGLY recommend bringing three veteran warriors with plasmaguns. They cost 2 points less than a veteran guardsman with a plasmagun, and get carapace armor and targeters as a bonus! I would also spread around some vox casters, they can be a game winner. That would leave you with 9 meltaguns and 9 plasmaguns, which is an excellent weapons load-out. Oh, and don't forget the plasma pistol on the CCS!

Terminus wrote:Out of curiosity, why did you go for the Grey Knight Hero? He sets you back 81 points. For 83 points, you can get an Inquisitor Lord with a hood and three mystics (the third is to fulfill the henchman requirement). Not only is he just as effective vs. psychic powers, but he also protects you from deep strikers landing behind you and wrecking your heavy support. You also get access to another chimera for that lovely AV12 saturation. Finally, instead of the third mystic, I would strongly STRONGLY recommend bringing three veteran warriors with plasmaguns. They cost 2 points less than a veteran guardsman with a plasmagun, and get carapace armor and targeters as a bonus! I would also spread around some vox casters, they can be a game winner. That would leave you with 9 meltaguns and 9 plasmaguns, which is an excellent weapons load-out. Oh, and don't forget the plasma pistol on the CCS!

Initially I built the list around a Inquisitor with a Mystic retinue for the bonuses you previously mentioned. However through the slow process that has been the chewing over of my list, the Inquisitor was starting to take up too many points as I'd only really put him there for the hood, the deep strike defence came as a bonus. Given that I can mount a Grey Knight Hero with my CCS in their Chimera, he does exactly what I need him to do, provide a hood and hide. The Inquisitorial variant Chimera's are 70 pts compared to the 55 point IG ones, plus if I want to drop a HKM on it (which I currently have on all my non HS Chimera chasis) it's an additional 5 pts compared to the IG one. The unit you've described does sound good and worth finding room in my list for, but I'll have to do even more shuffling! Since I previously posted my Vet heavy list I've changed it up again, after reading alot about Platoon's, I finally dipped my toe in to see how they work. I've posted my current list here for reference and critque. If you all could wing on over and take a glance and throw in some input I'd be appreciative as the comments I've gotten so far have been very helpful.

Ahem, I think the adage goes:
"Too much is never enough."

When you have dice involved, overkill does not exist

The meltagun is, by far, one of the very best guns in the game and usually cheap as spit. Why would you ever worry about having too many? Get as many as you can. I play as orks and I would love to have the option, even at BS2. Apparently, we're not smart enough to loot the best damn gun out there...

The Melta Myth: http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/258140.page

Yes, but his argument is that meltaguns are bad because they can't stop transports. While this may be bad for many armies, it's not that big of a deal for a guard army. It's more points effective for the guard to just take more troops with more meltaguns and let them slam into your lines than it is to spend even more points to feebly attempt to stop them with little benefit to that expenditure if they're not a transport-spam army.

I suppose this does raise the point, though - you have too many meltaguns when you ONLY have meltaguns. Melta covers a large variety of sins, but it doesn't cover them ALL. You still need to be able to take down light infantry and space marines with the rest of your list. That said, given most people's lists, generally speaking, more = better.