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While I agree with visavismeyou interpretation of the rules regarding Star Engines and Tank Shock/Ramming, Flingitnow's addition lends credence to that side of the argument.

Would it be more/less "legal" for a Tank Shock/Ram declared in the Movement phase to continue in the shooting phase if the declared movement included Star Engines?

Gavin Thorne wrote:While I agree with visavismeyou interpretation of the rules regarding Star Engines and Tank Shock/Ramming, Flingitnow's addition lends credence to that side of the argument.

Would it be more/less "legal" for a Tank Shock/Ram declared in the Movement phase to continue in the shooting phase if the declared movement included Star Engines?

To take this further; under the interpretation proposed, it would seem that you are REQUIRED to use your Star Engines in any turn in which you Ram, to move in the same direction as the Ram. . . despite the fact that the Ram takes place in the Movement phase.

This seems wrong to me.

FlingitNow wrote:

Ah ok, and I made the point on another forum that just because a vehicle can move at a certain speed does not mean it cannot move faster with some other ability... Just because skimmers are able to move "flat out" (up to 24 inches) does not mean that is the farthest they can move in one turn... If there is an additional ability which gives them more movement that turn... they are able to take it. The game checks the 'speed of the tank' as being 'more than combat speed' and does not concern itself with anything else. More than combat speed is 7 inches, 25 inches, 500 inches... These 'speeds' are all 'faster' than 'at least' combat speed.

Not to mention this entire discussion about speeds is irrelevant because tank ram rules replace that tank shock rule check.

This is the part I disagree with. Cruising speed and flatout are faster than combat speed, no other movement has a defined speed attached and is therefore not moving at combat speed or any other speed.

The only time you can move at a given speed is the movement phase. Star engines is a 12" movement done in the shooting phase with no speed (combat, cruising, flatout) attached to it. Indeed you may not have moved at all in the movement phase and use you star engines in the shooting to move...

36 > 6....

case closed...


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Gavin Thorne wrote:While I agree with visavismeyou interpretation of the rules regarding Star Engines and Tank Shock/Ramming, Flingitnow's addition lends credence to that side of the argument.

Would it be more/less "legal" for a Tank Shock/Ram declared in the Movement phase to continue in the shooting phase if the declared movement included Star Engines?

You dont declare your star engine movement in the movement phase....


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BeRzErKeR wrote:To take this further; under the interpretation proposed, it would seem that you are REQUIRED to use your Star Engines in any turn in which you Ram, to move in the same direction as the Ram. . . despite the fact that the Ram takes place in the Movement phase.

This seems wrong to me.

It seems wrong to you because it is.... The rules clearly state that a ramming tank must move its max movement available when declaring a ram... This has nothing to do with using your star engines in the movement phase because that is not in the rules query while declaring a ram in the movement phase... Star engines are an optional movement in the shooting phase...

It is all about when the rules (and what rules) are queried, I'm sorry if this is a difficult concept.

36 > 6....

case closed...

What is your point? I wasn't talking about distance moved I was taljking about speed which is defined in the BrB as 3 distinct levels. Combat, Cruising and Flatout (plus stationary if you count that)...

so if you have 3 distinct levels, and you move greater than 6" with your star engines, then you wold be moving faster than combat speed and could ram, as nowhere in the rules does it state that ramming can only take place in the movement phase.

so if you have 3 distinct levels, and you move greater than 6" with your star engines, then you wold be moving faster than combat speed and could ram, as nowhere in the rules does it state that ramming can only take place in the movement phase.

You're mixing RaI nd RaW to get your answer which is a no no. You're claiming that moving more than 6" is moving faster than combat speed yet no rules back that up. All you have is the intention that speed in the game relates to distance travelled. Yet you through the big picture RaI out the window when someone points out that Star engines is about as far away from "normal" movement as you can possibly get and claim by RaW "normal movement" is not defined.

You can't have it both ways. By strict RaW is doesn't work because of the speed restriction by RaI is doesn't work because of the "normal movement" restriction flipping between the two to claim your answer is not a valid rules debate.

so if i declare that i want to move Flat Out yet i only want to block my infantry that is only 3" away, I can then cover my troops and get a cover save for my vehicle since Speed does not = distance traveled and i said that i was moving Flat out

You have to move more than 12" to be moving flat out (and less than 24") just because you speed is defined by the distance you have travelled in the movement phase it does not mean that applies out side or that the two things are the same.

By your assertation and reading the Star engines are effectively useless as you are claiming you are moving flatout but that limits your movement to 24" so you wouldn't be able to move any further with the star engines. The star engines is an extra movement done in the shooting phase that has no attached speed to it if it did that would limit how far you could move and make the star engines useless.

@FlingitNow: If I may ask, why are you arguing the RaW? As you stated here following the rules means you are unintelligent...

@FlingitNow: If I may ask, why are you arguing the RaW? As you stated here following the rules means you are unintelligent...

I didn't can't you read? I am happy to over look RaW when it makes no sense. I'll always play RaI if it is obvious, what the person above is trying to do is flip between RaW and RaI at different stages of the argument to get past counter arguments which is not logical debate.

Please point to where I've stated that followiong the rules is stupid? I've never said following the rules (or RaI as they are also known) is stupid.

I cited numerous cases where RaW makes no sense so you look to the obvious solution or if there is no obvious RaI and the RaW is totally bizarre (as in the scout cover save debate) then I suggest agreeing with your opponent before how to work it.

FlingitNow wrote:

so if you have 3 distinct levels, and you move greater than 6" with your star engines, then you wold be moving faster than combat speed and could ram, as nowhere in the rules does it state that ramming can only take place in the movement phase.

You're mixing RaI nd RaW to get your answer which is a no no. You're claiming that moving more than 6" is moving faster than combat speed yet no rules back that up. All you have is the intention that speed in the game relates to distance travelled. Yet you through the big picture RaI out the window when someone points out that Star engines is about as far away from "normal" movement as you can possibly get and claim by RaW "normal movement" is not defined.

You can't have it both ways. By strict RaW is doesn't work because of the speed restriction by RaI is doesn't work because of the "normal movement" restriction flipping between the two to claim your answer is not a valid rules debate.

FlingitNow wrote:I cited numerous cases where RaW makes no sense

Yet in every single case, the RaW is clear. I think it doesn't make sense that Space Marines are Toughness 4. Can I have them as Toughness 10 now? Or how about making Krak Missiles AP 1, because I don't think it makes sense that they are AP3.

Yet in every single case, the RaW is clear. I think it doesn't make sense that Space Marines are Toughness 4. Can I have them as Toughness 10 now? Or how about making Krak Missiles AP 1, because I don't think it makes sense that they are AP3.

If your opponent agrees go nuts. Not sure you'll find one though or one that follows all the ludicrous RaW interpretations...


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seems to me that GW does define movement speed by distance traveled, and like you said you cant have it both ways.

No it doesn't read what I said it defines speed as distance travelled in the movement phase because speed has impacts beyond distance moved. For instance weapons you can fire and cover saves. Say your Wave serpent moves 3 inches in the movement phase then uses the Star engines to move another 12" in the shooting phase. It has still moved combat speed that means it will not get a cover save however if it becomes immobilised it will also not become wrecked despite having moved a total of 15".

Just though it was worth pointing out that this is not "novel" in anyway shape or form. As soon as 5th came out people were talking about the S15 ram

AS for 36 > 6? Irrelevant. The BRB defines speed levels, and tells you what they correspond to. While 36 is a higher number than 6, it does not have a Speed band and therefore is not faster than Flat Out! - it is undefined in terms of the GW usage of "speed"

So - strict RAW you cannot do it, as the star engine move is neither Normal nor is it faster than combat.

FlingitNow wrote:... claim by RaW "normal movement" is not defined.

You can't have it both ways. By strict RaW is doesn't work because of the speed restriction by RaI is doesn't work because of the "normal movement" restriction flipping between the two to claim your answer is not a valid rules debate.

What are you talking about? My argument is predicated on the reality that "normal movement" is clearly defined.

visavismeyou wrote:"Moving normally" refers to the descriptions on page 11 of the SRB which read in part, "A model may not move into or through a space occupied by another model... cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the movement or shooting phases - this is only possible in an assault during the assault phase. to keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting."

Since they placed these necessary conditions on movement they needed to breach them in order to allow tank shocking. They had to use the verbiage of "instead of moving normally" to satisfy the maneuver of tank shocking/ramming but by no means does "instead of moving normally" refer to the "movement only in the movement phase". Please recognize that "moving normally" is a technical internal rules-reference and not "normal moving" in the colloquial sense of "how people usually move their tanks".

- Revised from my original statement

My distinction is not an arbitrary one as yakface accused. "Moving normally" quite clearly refers to something, the next line helps my distinction by pointing to the 1 inch guideline, I dont really see what the confusion is.

"Moving normally" refers to the descriptions on page 11 of the SRB which read in part, "A model may not move into or through a space occupied by another model... cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the movement or shooting phases - this is only possible in an assault during the assault phase. to keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting."

I really don't see anything on that page or your quote that "clearly define[s]" nomral movement. Please explain.

FlingitNow wrote:You have to move more than 12" to be moving flat out (and less than 24") just because you speed is defined by the distance you have travelled in the movement phase it does not mean that applies out side or that the two things are the same.

By your assertation and reading the Star engines are effectively useless as you are claiming you are moving flatout but that limits your movement to 24" so you wouldn't be able to move any further with the star engines. The star engines is an extra movement done in the shooting phase that has no attached speed to it if it did that would limit how far you could move and make the star engines useless.

You're confusing our argument with yours...

Your argument does in fact mean that star engines would be nullified... Ours does not. When I declare a movement of "Cruising speed" in the movement phase, the game checks what that means based on the current position of the tank, checks if I need to pass a DT test and various other checks and then comes back and says: "The tank is on a road so it is allowed to move between 12 to 18 inches, that is its 'speed' in the movement phase." Now for most tanks this is a completed movement, nowhere in the rules and nowhere in our argument do we say that it is then limited because it chose only cruising speed.

Now, i'm pretty sure I know the source of your confusion and it has to do with the statement: 'The vehicle must move at least at combat speed' in the TANK SHOCK section. Now if we're talking about ramming, your entire discussion is irrelevant because ramming replaces this 'at least at combat speed' condition.

Rules as written logically allow for additional movement in the movement phase via star engines because of two reasons:

1) The star engines make the clear distinction of: "Additional movement" and provide the fluff (not evidence, but good enough to clear up some lines) that these are secondary engines that increase the speed to 'breakneck speeds"; intimating that it is cumulative acceleration, that is, the first set of engines provide the acceleration up to 24 inches (speed), then these secondary engines continue accelerating up to 36 inches; cumulative... But again, this is not evidence, it is colloquial.
2) The error that so many people are making about this movement discussion is that "at least combat speed" is synonomous with "At least 6 inches" 12 inches, 36 inches are both greater than 6 inches. They are used interchangeably and this is not a RoI distinction, it is completely a RaW distinction.

Fast vehicles are capable of a third level of speed, called
‘flat out’. A fast vehicle going flat out moves more than
12" and up to 18". This represents the fast vehicle
moving at top speed, without firing its guns and is
treated in all respects exactly the same as moving at
cruising speed for a vehicle that is not fast (except
where noted otherwise). For example, a fast vehicle
moving flat out on a road may move up to 24".

They interchange the word 'speed' and actual measures of distances over and over again... This is done on purpose and people get so confused by this because GW is making ad hoc distinctions for the sake of clarity. Furthermore, and this may be the most important point, when the game makes the check of what speed a vehicle has moved and comes back with a reading of 7.32 inches, it comes back and reads "Cruising speed", if it came back and said " 32.55 " inches, it would check, "Is this faster than combat speed?" for the sake of tank shocking, and the game would respond: "Yep".

Finally, at no time can you say that the star engine movement has no corresponding movement 'label'. This is just pure nonsense, these labels have no distinction of phase or source of movement, they are equivalent to a distance the owner moved the vehicle... If the vehicle does not move at all in the movement phase, and then we go to the shooting phase and the star engines move the tank 11 inches, it has moved cruising speed... It is nonsensical to say otherwise.

FlingitNow wrote:No it doesn't read what I said it defines speed as distance travelled in the movement phase because speed has impacts beyond distance moved. For instance weapons you can fire and cover saves. Say your Wave serpent moves 3 inches in the movement phase then uses the Star engines to move another 12" in the shooting phase. It has still moved combat speed that means it will not get a cover save however if it becomes immobilised it will also not become wrecked despite having moved a total of 15".

Yes, speed has ad hoc impacts throughout the rulebook, and 'speed' and 'distance traveled' are used interchangeably. Thus your assumption that it will not give a cover save is completely unfounded and a result of your own interpretation and not the rulebook, thus it has no bearing on this conversation.

The result, however, is the same because the game check is defined here:
Skimmers moving at high speed are very difficult to hit.
A skimmer that is not immobilised and has moved flat
out in its last Movement phase counts as obscured
(cover save of 4+) when fired at."

Since the game check explicitly states in the movement phase, the movement in the shooting phase does not contribute to this ad hoc check. This is however, an internal inconsistency that I've already brought up, there is no justification to say that the movement in the shooting phase does not contribute to skimmers being very difficult to hit because of their movement. Furthermore, if movement happens in distinct phases, why would moving in my movement phase hold any bearing on your shooting phase; duh, its because your mans are aiming at my tank during my phase. It is an abstraction with ad hoc rules attempting to make the game playable. This however has no bearing on my argument because of this ad hoc distinction. Again, dont confuse necessary and sufficient conditions, just because star engine movement does not count towards this rule does not mean it does not apply to other rules; it is not evidence in your favor because there is no overlap between the two rules; not to mention it is internally inconsistent.

I'm sure you're going to come back and say this is convenient... But please... try to stay on topic.

You seemt o think total distance you've travelled in the urn relates to speed and is totally interchangeable. But no where in the rules does it state that. the speeds are only refered to as distances moved specifically in the movement phase.

By RaW you would not gain a cover save for moving at combat speed even if the total distance you moved that turn including your star Engines was over 12" you still have only moved at combat speed.

It is a permissive rule set please show me the rule that states that moving 12" with your star engines equates to a specific speed.

FlingitNow wrote:

"Moving normally" refers to the descriptions on page 11 of the SRB which read in part, "A model may not move into or through a space occupied by another model... cannot move so that it touches an enemy model during the movement or shooting phases - this is only possible in an assault during the assault phase. to keep this distinction clear, a model may not move within 1" of an enemy model unless assaulting."

I really don't see anything on that page or your quote that "clearly define[s]" nomral movement. Please explain.

I'm going to quote myself because I've already clearly explained this all.



The writers of the rules tend to make a statement and then move on to clarify what was just said, exempli gratia:

A consolidation move may not be used to move
into base contact with enemy models, as this can only
be done with an assault move. Consolidating models
must therefore stop 1" away from all enemy models,
including any that might have just fallen back from the
combat that the consolidating unit has fought in.

If the writers stopped at: "...as this can only be done with an assault move." the rule would have been complete but the writers moved on to describe exactly what they just said but in more detail.

Again:

In close combat, a model’s Initiative characteristic
determines who attacks first. Work your way through
the Initiative values of the models engaged in the
combat, starting with the highest and ending with the
lowest. Models make their attacks when their Initiative
value is reached, assuming they haven’t already been
killed by a model with a higher Initiative! If both sides
have models with the same Initiative value, their attacks
are made simultaneously.

Again:

Psychic powers that take the form of shooting attacks
are very common. Using a psychic shooting attack
counts as firing a ranged weapon (an assault weapon,
unless specified otherwise). So, for example, the psyker
must be able to see his target unit, cannot be locked in
combat, or must not have run in the Shooting phase if
he wishes to use a psychic shooting attack.

The writers of the rules reiterate things often in the next line in order to make it very clear what they are talking about, they do this throughout the rulebook. Similarly:

When moving a tank, the player can declare that the
vehicle is going to attempt to make a tank shock attack
instead of moving normally. This is an exception to the
rule that enemy models cannot be moved through.

Thus, they quite clearly state what "moving normally" means

I know how the rules work yet nothing in your rules quote nor that pages mentions the term "normal movement".

nosferatu1001 wrote:Just though it was worth pointing out that this is not "novel" in anyway shape or form. As soon as 5th came out people were talking about the S15 ram

AS for 36 > 6? Irrelevant. The BRB defines speed levels, and tells you what they correspond to. While 36 is a higher number than 6, it does not have a Speed band and therefore is not faster than Flat Out! - it is undefined in terms of the GW usage of "speed"

So - strict RAW you cannot do it, as the star engine move is neither Normal nor is it faster than combat.

About it being novel, its novel to me and my milieu; however, this is irrelevant.

You too are completely missing 2 things.

1) tank ramming removes this tank shocking restriction, thus, your point, while still in error, is only relevant to tank shocking and not tank ramming, please review the relevant literature.
2) "speed bands" and pretty much everything else you said are not supported by the rules. The "speeds" in the rulebook are interchangeable with distances moved, you all are making what is known as a "Category error". To simply describe what this means please bear with this following explanation:

Two students are walking around a university, student a says to student b: "We have walked to the library, to the science building, to the administrative offices and to the dining hall, but where is the 'university' at?" Student B responds: "Those things all make up the university, when you're at the library you're in the university!" Student A responds: "Yes, I understand that the library is part of the university, but where IS the university?!?"

The rules talk about the speeds and talk about the corresponding distances and do not care what phase the movement occurred in, when I say: "I have moved 11 inches, what speed is that?" and you come back and say: "it is not a speed because it is in the shooting phase" you commit this fallacy...


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FlingitNow wrote:I know how the rules work yet nothing in your rules quote nor that pages mentions the term "normal movement".

JULIET:
'Tis but thy name that is my enemy;
Thou art thyself, though not a Montague.
What's Montague? it is nor hand, nor foot,
Nor arm, nor face, nor any other part
Belonging to a man. O, be some other name!
What's in a name? that which we call a rose
By any other name would smell as sweet;
So Romeo would, were he not Romeo call'd,
Retain that dear perfection which he owes
Without that title. Romeo, doff thy name,
And for that name which is no part of thee
Take all myself.

So all movement is now normal movement? Or just arnitrarily the stuff covered on page 11? I notice you've still not come up with anything supporting your normal movement claim...

FlingitNow wrote:So all movement is now normal movement? Or just arnitrarily the stuff covered on page 11? I notice you've still not come up with anything supporting your normal movement claim...

huh? My whole point has been that "normally" is not referring to "movement" (in your sense) but the fact that you cannot move through another model... It is a restriction on 'how' you can move not 'when' you can move (adverbs tend to be quite specific). Yes if you want it stated this way then fine: all movement is normal movement (meaning you cannot move through another model or within 1 inch) unless specifically stated as non-normal movement (an explicit exception to the movement rules on p11). That is, in the assault section of the movement rules it explicitly states that you can violate the 1 inch rule ONLY when assaulting, this is a necessary condition. Just like in the tank shock section, it states you are now allowed to violate the "normal movement" rule of moving within 1 inch or moving through another model ONLY when tank shocking...

I'm just repeating myself by the way.

Look in the sections which describe other forms of movement which so many people are calling "non normal movement" like running, consolidation etc. None of those sections say anything about normal or non-normal and none of those moves are allowed to move through another model... Isn't it odd that the tank shock section is the only movement which says anything about moving normally and also quite oddly describes a movement which is allowed to move through another model?

Please, also keep in mind we are talking about an adverb, "Normally" this is important as it refers to an action and does not say anything about "when" but instead states clearly "how" one may move a tank.