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Timmah wrote:

olympia wrote:No soft scores, standard missions = NO DRAMA. Take note tournament organizers.

Olympia, you're my new best friend. :p

My only complaint is that the standard missions are so very boring. I really think GW dropped the ball with the 5th ed. mission selections.

reds8n wrote:Actually I think the overall winner was using Imperial Marines, but he was listed as chaos in error/originally.

39th for me, 3 wins, 2 losses and 1 draw. All cool enough games, very fun weekend allround. I never seen so many Valkyries/Vendettas and Eldar tanks.

I played 3 mech eldar, 2 guard and 1 chaos marine armies.

I've got some snaps of some of the armies on here ..errr... site might be construed as slightly NWS/language warning.

Biggest surprise of the weekend : only Two Tyranid armies in the final out of 115 players. I believe only 4 or 5 Tyranid armies even qualified ( note you are free to take wahtever army you wish to the final, you don't have to stick to the same on or build). Speaking to a few TYranid players there's a feeling the book just doesn't quite work at 1500 points.

I remember that Slaaneshi chaos marine army from a WD battle report when witch hunters were coming for the first time, wow it looks as great as it did back then.

olympia wrote:No soft scores, standard missions = NO DRAMA. Take note tournament organizers.

There's always at least a little drama, though IME the UK folks tend to be understated with it.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=69412&start=180

Kurgash wrote:

I remember that Slaaneshi chaos marine army from a WD battle report when witch hunters were coming for the first time, wow it looks as great as it did back then.

Actually it looks even better... .

Gary Marsh is the player/painter, he also has a gorgeous SoB army too. Ninjas around the web on occassion under the handle of Castigator. Sound bloke, always ready to split a bottle of Merlot/similar.

UK folks tend to be understated with it.

.. well duh !

reds8n wrote:

Kurgash wrote:

I remember that Slaaneshi chaos marine army from a WD battle report when witch hunters were coming for the first time, wow it looks as great as it did back then.

Actually it looks even better... .

Gary Marsh is the player/painter, he also has a gorgeous SoB army too. Ninjas around the web on occassion under the handle of Castigator. Sound bloke, always ready to split a bottle of Merlot/similar.

And he's a Merc. We've got some quality painters and players and drunks on our team.

..and Mr. Fennell too !

The only shocker for me in this thread- reds8n has 12 thousand posts on the golden throne forum (where he linked to the pics)!

And I didn't even know it existed...?

1. Spearhead, Seize Ground.
2. Pitched Battle, Annilation.
3. Dawn of War, Capture & Control.
4. Dawn of War, Seize Ground.
5. Spearhead, Capture & Control.
6. Pitched Battle, Annilation.

You always play each deployment and each mission twice, the order varies but, thus far, the last battle is ALWAYS PB/Annih.

Genius! Lord almighty, why don't we do it that way here?

I LOVE the missions out of the book this edition, they are excellent and balanced (my one complaint: kill points should equal the points cost of a unit).

If you want wacky missions, play them at home. A tournament should be about playing the game we all know, not trying to figure out new rules and what not.

I wish we would run tournaments that way here.....just at the proper points limit of 2,000!

reds8n wrote:..and Mr. Fennell too !

Hey! He's a quality player, and not a half bad painter. Better than me, anyway, and my stuff's okay.

Mannahnin wrote:

olympia wrote:No soft scores, standard missions = NO DRAMA. Take note tournament organizers.

There's always at least a little drama, though IME the UK folks tend to be understated with it.

http://warhammer.org.uk/phpBB/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=69412&start=180

That's me. And I'm very understated with the drama. Normally anyway. That game aside I enjoyed the GT.

Rhyskalor wrote:

Timmah wrote:
Maybe the Europeans aren't as good as us.
(yay broad all encompassing statements. )

Well, we'll finally gonna find out this summer at the ETC.

I'm honestly curious to see how the US top players compare to the top Europeans (i.e. not the English ).
and this year the Australians come as well...

Heheh, I can't remember the last time an English won the GT. But its the Welshies you continentals have gotta fear this August

Nice.

Very nice indeed Torgoch!

G

Chaos

CptZach wrote:Well in fairness there haven't been any US 1500 pt tournaments.

We're aiming to change that:

http://www.chaoswins.com/2010/03/playing-sprue-posse-rtt-at-aero-boyz.html


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Reecius wrote:

1. Spearhead, Seize Ground.
2. Pitched Battle, Annilation.
3. Dawn of War, Capture & Control.
4. Dawn of War, Seize Ground.
5. Spearhead, Capture & Control.
6. Pitched Battle, Annilation.

You always play each deployment and each mission twice, the order varies but, thus far, the last battle is ALWAYS PB/Annih.

Genius! Lord almighty, why don't we do it that way here?

I LOVE the missions out of the book this edition, they are excellent and balanced (my one complaint: kill points should equal the points cost of a unit).

If you want wacky missions, play them at home. A tournament should be about playing the game we all know, not trying to figure out new rules and what not.

I wish we would run tournaments that way here.....just at the proper points limit of 2,000!

Yeah we're doing exactly that with the exception that we play at 1500. Reason being is the rounds are only 2 hours and I'm more interested in people finishing games than playing with large armies.

If we expand to GT size though we'll probably up the point total.

Come to LA - my gaming group is starting up a regular tourney series at our FLGS with no comp/sports, 1500 3 game straight out of the rulebook missions (we like to keep our amateur games design to ourselves).

That looks great! I can't make it unfortunately, I am competing in the Ragnar Race that weekend.

Hopefully this catches on, I played a 1,000 point tournament with the missions right out of the book, it was fantastic, quick games, lots of fun, no confusion.

I hope you guys have a great time.

Book missions are mostly quite good. I'm not a fan of Dawn of War Annihilation, though, and Spearhead Cap & Control isn't that great either.

Unique missions (as long as they're done with care) are one of the things which makes our game different from video games, though. They certainly can add a lot of extra fun and tactical challenge to events.

olympia wrote:There are, no doubt, plenty of RTT that are free of comp. It's a pity that none of the GT/Vegas qualifiers are that way.

The Mechanicon is comp-free. And I'm sure there are plenty of others. Don't paint the entire country with a broad brush just based on a couple events. You need to keep in mind that GW didn't run comp at their GTs the last several years they were in existence. So lots of players here are used to a no-comp environment.

reds8n wrote:39th for me, 3 wins, 2 losses and 1 draw. All cool enough games, very fun weekend allround. I never seen so many Valkyries/Vendettas and Eldar tanks.

Congrats...3-2-1 is a pretty solid weekend.

Biggest surprise of the weekend : only Two Tyranid armies in the final out of 115 players. I believe only 4 or 5 Tyranid armies even qualified ( note you are free to take wahtever army you wish to the final, you don't have to stick to the same on or build). Speaking to a few TYranid players there's a feeling the book just doesn't quite work at 1500 points.

At that points level, Tyranids are probably going to struggle in an epic way with mech armies. I struggle with them at 1850 despite maxing out my Elites for antitank. And my experience to date suggests to me that they just aren't a great tourney army at any points level. It's really hard to fit in an answer for everything. In one-off situations in which you can gear for a particular opponent and/or build, they seem to play better. Right now I tend to think there'll be some disconnect going forward between casual and tournament players about the power level of the Tyranid codex.

Having said all that, I'm kicking around the idea of taking Tyranids to 'Ard Boyz this year, just because at 2500 some options get more viable and interesting.

Man I would love to see the space marine list that won #1

Reecius wrote:

1. Spearhead, Seize Ground.
2. Pitched Battle, Annilation.
3. Dawn of War, Capture & Control.
4. Dawn of War, Seize Ground.
5. Spearhead, Capture & Control.
6. Pitched Battle, Annilation.

You always play each deployment and each mission twice, the order varies but, thus far, the last battle is ALWAYS PB/Annih.

Genius! Lord almighty, why don't we do it that way here?

I LOVE the missions out of the book this edition, they are excellent and balanced (my one complaint: kill points should equal the points cost of a unit).

If you want wacky missions, play them at home. A tournament should be about playing the game we all know, not trying to figure out new rules and what not.

I wish we would run tournaments that way here.....just at the proper points limit of 2,000!

I like "whacky" missions, as long as they are made available to the public at least 30 days in advance so players have a chance to figure out how to play them prior to the day of the event.

Ta.

I'm alright with those results. My list wasn't exactly UBER :

2 DPs with wings, MoS and lash.

2 Dreads with TL heavy bolters, 1 with a heavy flamer

3 5 man noise marine units each with 1 blastmaster, 1 has 1 sonic blaster.

2 rhinos with extra armour

2 2 obliterators

1 defiler with extra CC weapon.

Bet you're all cacking it there eh > !

I don't really like taking the lash princes, the amount of mech makes them less great and in my games 3 of the armies were Eldar ones with the "runes of messing up your pschic tests, usually whilst the eldar player moans about not having psychic hoods seemingly unaware he's bitching to a chaos player whose best psyker has only just remembered how to turn his poxy power weapon back on."

..bitter me ? Nah.

My victoies were generally quite solid, wiped out the chaos army in game 4 and the guard army in game 6, bit lucky to win game two -- he fleeted out his Farseer on turn 6 to witchblade ny immobilised Rhino and then double 1s on the damage roll, which let me gun him down with bolter fire thusly freeing me up to lash his now disarmbarked 5 man Dire Avengers into my Princes and Dreads -- and in the 2 games I lost if a rhino had passed one smoke save or not been destroyed or the game had ended on turn 6 then they would have been draws.

I am heartily sick of Mech ELdar though. Played 3 of them. Glad of the extra range and potential punch of the blastmaster though, wouldn't have got near them with melta guns IMO.

DReads were what I wanted to take out, I always try to change my list as it forces me to actually paint my poxy models with more than an undercoat . They did alright in qualifying and added a handy element of CC punch. I tend to run them around in pairs so if they do go mental then, in theory, they only shoot the other dread for no affect. BUt I didn't have time to get anything done and.... well..


I only would have put maybe a few more Noise marines or boosted the existing units. But I'm sure you're all well aware of the issues with the current chaos codex by now.

The reason why there might have been so few tyranid armies is because they needed to qualify in the heats back in the fall before the new codex came out.

Most players I would think are playing the armies that let them qualify for the tournament rather than experimenting with a new army at the last moment.

The heats next fall might see a different Tyranid turnout.

Hmmm that's wierd double lash did so well maybe it's better at 1500 but I have never lost to a lash list. Really all it takes is a weak alpha strike or good positioning for the first few turns and you win the game because you force them to move towards you into a gunline. Meh maybe I just havent played enough 1500 all my experience is at 2000k or 1850. The point values god intended lol American ones.

To an extent.

Although in the UK there's a somewhat ... odd.... tendency to take harder armies to the qualifiers and then take a more fun or even totally ridiculous army to the final.

That appears to have died down a bit in the last few years which is both good and bad.

There's never been a huge number of Tyranid players, even back when nidzilla was ...hmm.. not the rage perhaps, but nasty nevertheless.

And you're under no obligation to take the same army to the qualifier and final, most people tweak something. I would have done given the chance.

At 1500 points, and given the amount of vehicles around these days, most of them AV 11 or 10 at the side, I'm actually wondering if we might se a slight resurgence of Necron Destroyer spam. Most of those armies actually had very little cc ability if you could crack open the transports.

The army I played and lost to in game 1 was

HQ:

Company command squad, 4 x melta guns, astropath = 120pts

HQ:

Company command squad, 4 x melta guns, officer of the fleet = 120pts

Troop:

Infantry platoon command squad 4 x flamers = 50pts

Infantry squad, autocannon + grenade launcher = 65pts

- chimera = 55pts

Infantry squad, autocannon + grenade launcher = 65pts

special weapon squad 3 x flamers = 50pts

special weapon squad 3 x flamers = 50pts

Troop:

Veteran squad 3 x flamers = 85pts

Fast Attack:

2 x vendettas, HB sponsons = 280pts

Fast Attack:

2 x vendettas, HB sponsons = 280pts

Fast Attack:

2 x vendettas, HB sponsons = 280pts

Quite nasty, not least as I had to go first and his entire army was in reserve. So my first two turns were spent twiddling my thumbs and shuffling about in some vague attempt to form some form of defence line. I took out 3 of them by games end and reguylarly stunned or shook another one per turn. A bit more luck on turn 4 and I could have downed another 2 of them.

I'm thinking destroyers, and a few heavy ones, especially if they WBB, would be quite effective against that and the mech eldar lists too perhaps.

Hmmm that's wierd double lash did so well

to be honest with you in most of my games the lash itself was pretty worthless. The extra point of I was handy, and it did win me at least 1 game once I could cast the bloody thing.

The eldar army in those photos was just beautiful. That wraithlord centaur was amazin.

Saldiven wrote:I like "whacky" missions, as long as they are made available to the public at least 30 days in advance so players have a chance to figure out how to play them prior to the day of the event.

And you are obviously not alone in that sentiment as I see a lot of them at tournaments!

Everyone is entitled to their opinion and I respect yours, I just feel that it is a better contest of skill when you play missions that everyone is familiar with, have been tested over and over and that are simple. This way it is more about skill than luck, IMO.

And this is where Shep launches into his "amateur game designer" speech again....

The primary reason our group runs missions out of the book with no modifications, is because the game designers logged many many hours playtesting those missions, with the help of dozens of playtesters. Each and every codex they release has been at least played against other armies with those same missions. You might not like kill points, you might not like spearhead cap and control. But both of those missions bring checks and balances into list design that, if absent, would likely throw game balance right out the window.

All players of 40k have biases. Most people who play a lot are getting pretty tired of the preponderance of mechanized armies, everyone has their 'pet' army too that they may feel is getting the short end of the stick. Whether consciously or not. Tournament organizers who design their own missions inject their bias into that mission. Things get nerfed arbitrarily, or even with malicious intent. Those missions are usually playtested by a couple people with only a small fraction of the 16 unique codecies, and then pass the testing phase still deeply flawed.

If the goal of a tourney is to determine who has the most skill, then the most tested, most broadly understood missions need to get played. If the goal of the "tournament" is just to get some strangers together with fully painted armies, and just play some wacky missions together, being sportsmanlike and having great theme armies, then I think you need to stop calling it a tournament and start calling it a 'game day' or 'gaming convention'. Because skill stops playing a factor, and social engineering, luck, and familiarity with the TO's bias take over.


As to the UKGT. There was no comp, and qualifier rounds to an invitational only final. Criticize away on these lists, but do so at your peril. One can only point to the fact that these players passed through qualifying rounds, and were not evaluated on soft scores at any point. In some ways I kind of agree that the lists don't look great... but I don't have the audacity to say that I could win out against that field, simply because the winner of the tourney played dual lash. They played standard book missions with no TO taint, they earned their wins IMO...

Makes me wish the US had that kind of tournament system.

Why are UK Gts 6 rounds and US 5? .. Metric system or something?!?

Well said, Shep. As usual!

GW Playtests?