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Fateweaver wrote:Sweet. I earned a new title.

I've not agreed with anything the AO has done.

Shuma, it's my understanding you are still in HS. What school do you go to where you can spend all day on dakka because I got robbed when I was in HS? I had to actually LEARN.

(Not taking a stab at your learning comprehension but if I'm right you are too young to have a world view of anything going on outside your school walls).

I'm 23 and pursuing my second degree. I think I've stated that at least 10 times in the past. Don't talk to me about reading comprehension when you clearly lack it. I attend the University of Maine at Orono, and I'm pursuing a BA in New Media. My previous degree with an AS in applied graphic design.


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1. Medicare was a contract. The people on it are of moderate means. If you think this group "had its cake and was eating it" I won't say you don't have a brain cell in your head, but will say you need further education in this area.

Contracts are words on paper. They mean little to most, and in the terms of social or government contracts even less.

2. they were productive. You have no proff the other group is. More importantly group #1 votes. A lot. For Fun.

You know every persons history that was ever on medicare? Goddamn, I'm debating doctor Manhattan here.

If I was a billionaire I'd be annoyed at this bill. Not pissed but annoyed. Bill Gates does not NEED medical insurance.

Didn't bill gates come out as for the bill?

MagickalMemories wrote:
So, someone decides they want to risk going without health insurance and has that stroke -or whatever- and a $200,000 bill.
Awesome. Good for them.
That would be fine, if that was where it stopped.
What's this, though? That person also didn't have any money, and they're filing for bankruptcy so they don't have to pay the bills?
Awesome. Now, not only do the uninsured get to worry about their own impending uninsured health issues, but they get to pay for Joe Bankruptcy's unpaid bill, due to the inflated charges next year because so many people filed bankruptcy to avoid medical bills. I'm tired of paying for slackers.

Here's another scenario:

Public "Free for All" health care becomes available.
Freeloaders know that they don't have to care for themselves because they get "Free" healthcare
Obesity, sedentary lifestyles, and self abuse in the form of tobacco and alcohol usage drive up need for "Free" healthcare
Productive members of society that are too busy working to sit around all day smoking and drinking pay for the "Free" healthcare.

Like you, I too am tired of paying for slackers.

Well by your terms there is no social contract so why am I supporting any of these people or you? Frankly this works for me as I am way more heavily armed then you turkeys. Man I am going to make some bank at the LGS tonight.

Mmm, I like those titans. Give them to me.
No
Well according to Shuma social contracts are less than words on paper. so (Click) I'll take those Titans.

Fateweaver wrote:If I want to protect myself by buying healthcare coverage that should be my choice. If I want to risk having a $200k medical bill because I suffer a stroke at 34 years of age with no insurance to cover it that should be on MY shoulders to worry about.

But the issue there is, can you actually pay back your $200,000 debt? Especially if you find it more difficult to work post-stroke?

Because if you can't then the hospital has to eat the cost, and that's a lot of the problem.

The Green Git wrote:

MagickalMemories wrote:
So, someone decides they want to risk going without health insurance and has that stroke -or whatever- and a $200,000 bill.
Awesome. Good for them.
That would be fine, if that was where it stopped.
What's this, though? That person also didn't have any money, and they're filing for bankruptcy so they don't have to pay the bills?
Awesome. Now, not only do the uninsured get to worry about their own impending uninsured health issues, but they get to pay for Joe Bankruptcy's unpaid bill, due to the inflated charges next year because so many people filed bankruptcy to avoid medical bills. I'm tired of paying for slackers.

Here's another scenario:

Public "Free for All" health care becomes available.
Freeloaders know that they don't have to care for themselves because they get "Free" healthcare
Obesity, sedentary lifestyles, and self abuse in the form of tobacco and alcohol usage drive up need for "Free" healthcare
Productive members of society that are too busy working to sit around all day smoking and drinking pay for the "Free" healthcare.

Like you, I too am tired of paying for slackers.

What are you talking about?
Who gets it for free under the new Obama plan?
I've done a bit of reading on it (from both sides) and haven't seen ANYONE getting FREE healthcare.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:
What are you talking about?
Who gets it for free under the new Obama plan?
I've done a bit of reading on it (from both sides) and haven't seen ANYONE getting FREE healthcare.

Eric

honestly... i've been reading it... every word, every page... I haven't seen anything yet. I guess everyone here has finished reading every part of the document and are discussing how it works as opposed to pushing republican talking points that often times are:
A) Lies
B) Outdated and dealing with older versions
Or
C) may have a shred of truth to them, but are being interpreted by the majority of people incorrectly.

yea... don't see the cost... can someone find it for me in the document? :( Sorry I am a rules guy and would like to see some quotes from the text that pertain to the subject at hand...

btw, I AM a registered republican... (sorry Frazz... i think we are in the same political party )

Frazzled wrote:Well by your terms there is no social contract so why am I supporting any of these people or you? Frankly this works for me as I am way more heavily armed then you turkeys. Man I am going to make some bank at the LGS tonight.

Mmm, I like those titans. Give them to me.
No
Well according to Shuma social contracts are less than words on paper. so (Click) I'll take those Titans.

Go ahead. The IRS has more guns than you do. I live in the real world, and for someone who understands social contracts so poorly as yourself (Whats your stance on torture again?) I hope you're a real good shot. Or hey, they could just bring other lawyers down on you, I'm sure your not the only one in the world with a gun!

This would be a good television special.

Frazzled wrote: Frankly this works for me as I am way more heavily armed then you turkeys.

Orly?

From what I've seen, all I've heard the republicans say, this is more govt, more govt, Marxism, Marxism, blah, blah, what are your real arguments, not just insults and vagueness, why do you not like this bill, and I need quotes from it, i need actual fact.

Frazzled wrote:Medicare is being eviscerated by $500BN.

Right in this thread.

The article posted in the OP was an interesting read, thanks for that Shuma. It’s obviously in favour of the HCR bill, but there’s plenty of information in there that shows the strengths and weaknesses of the bill and could lead to some interesting conversation. Personally I’m not convinced about every cost control measure, and am a little concerned about paying simply for a patient and not his care (as that would provide too great an incentive towards too little treatment, it would be better to have the profit based payment on treating a patient, with treatment paid on cost recovery only).

It’s just a shame we didn’t get that conversation in this thread. Instead we’ve got the same folk posting the same rhetoric about bad old government. Do you realise how empty all that rhetoric is? Is reality that uninteresting to you that you’d stay wrapped up in your ideologies?

sebster wrote:The article posted in the OP was an interesting read, thanks for that Shuma. It’s obviously in favour of the HCR bill, but there’s plenty of information in there that shows the strengths and weaknesses of the bill and could lead to some interesting conversation. Personally I’m not convinced about every cost control measure, and am a little concerned about paying simply for a patient and not his care (as that would provide too great an incentive towards too little treatment, it would be better to have the profit based payment on treating a patient, with treatment paid on cost recovery only).

It’s just a shame we didn’t get that conversation in this thread. Instead we’ve got the same folk posting the same rhetoric about bad old government. Do you realise how empty all that rhetoric is? Is reality that uninteresting to you that you’d stay wrapped up in your ideologies?

Best post in the thread!

I agree, re: not being sure about everything. I mean, I do support the measure, but there ARE things about it I admit having some issues with.
You can't always get everything you want. Right? I mean, this thread is proof that there will ALWAYS be people who don't want the same things as everyone else.

The thing to keep in mind about treating the patient vs. the illness is that the physicians are also graded on how well they help their patients. IIRC, that affects their paychecks.

Eric

MagickalMemories wrote:I agree, re: not being sure about everything. I mean, I do support the measure, but there ARE things about it I admit having some issues with.

Definitely. I am encouraged by the test and see approach, bringing reforms in at the micro-level to assess if they work before rolling them out across the greater system.

The thing to keep in mind about treating the patient vs. the illness is that the physicians are also graded on how well they help their patients. IIRC, that affects their paychecks.

Eric

True, which in turn, if implemented poorly, can lead to people playing the game, taking the patients with the best chance of quick recovery and shuffling the rest on. That depends on how the program is implemented, of course, if there's an issue it'll be in the details.

Empchild wrote:That said insurance if you know how to shop around can be as low as 60 bucks a month with a $10.00 copay.

Well, I just got done shopping around for health insurance, and here's what I found. For $68 a month, which is the absolute maximum I could afford, I get a plan that has a $10,000 deductible and doesn't cover any prescription drugs, not even generics. Hey, perhaps that's why I don't waste my money on it!!! This whole health care mess is just a trick anyway. Our illegal "President" (Who was born in Indonesia and Knows it!) Barry Soetoro and his NWO handlers want to provoke violent resistance so that they can have the opportunity to declare martial law and round up the excess population for efficient disposal. See below.

http://www.uhuh.com/control/garden.htm

http://www.apfn.org/apfn/camps.htm

http://www.anomalies-unlimited.com/Denver_Airport.html

http://obamacrimes.com/

warpcrafter wrote:
Well, I just got done shopping around for health insurance, and here's what I found. For $68 a month, which is the absolute maximum I could afford, I get a plan that has a $10,000 deductible and doesn't cover any prescription drugs, not even generics. Hey, perhaps that's why I don't waste my money on it!!! This whole health care mess is just a trick anyway. Our illegal "President" (Who was born in Indonesia and Knows it!) Barry Soetoro and his NWO handlers want to provoke violent resistance so that they can have the opportunity to declare martial law and round up the excess population for efficient disposal. See below.

No, plain and simply.

Wrexasaur wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:
Well, I just got done shopping around for health insurance, and here's what I found. For $68 a month, which is the absolute maximum I could afford, I get a plan that has a $10,000 deductible and doesn't cover any prescription drugs, not even generics. Hey, perhaps that's why I don't waste my money on it!!! This whole health care mess is just a trick anyway. Our illegal "President" (Who was born in Indonesia and Knows it!) Barry Soetoro and his NWO handlers want to provoke violent resistance so that they can have the opportunity to declare martial law and round up the excess population for efficient disposal. See below.

No, plain and simply.

So, your only form of rebuttal is a video from a lame bunch of techo-sissies? Sorry, but that's not good enough. Prove to me that you at least glanced at the links I provided. Otherwise, your response is laughable.

People as voters have an avenue to express their opinions in 2010. This was not done in any underhanded way. It is easy to be in the opposition and make sound bites. All I am saying is that this bill was passed legally, and if the people are really pissed they have recourse through election. No ones USA is the same USA!

warpcrafter wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:
Well, I just got done shopping around for health insurance, and here's what I found. For $68 a month, which is the absolute maximum I could afford, I get a plan that has a $10,000 deductible and doesn't cover any prescription drugs, not even generics. Hey, perhaps that's why I don't waste my money on it!!! This whole health care mess is just a trick anyway. Our illegal "President" (Who was born in Indonesia and Knows it!) Barry Soetoro and his NWO handlers want to provoke violent resistance so that they can have the opportunity to declare martial law and round up the excess population for efficient disposal. See below.

No, plain and simply.

So, your only form of rebuttal is a video from a lame bunch of techo-sissies? Sorry, but that's not good enough. Prove to me that you at least glanced at the links I provided. Otherwise, your response is laughable.

How do you respond to the dude on the soapbox shouting about the end coming on the corner of the street? I mean, I would give you change, but I don't think the quarters I put in my cd drive will come out yours.

ShumaGorath wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:
Well, I just got done shopping around for health insurance, and here's what I found. For $68 a month, which is the absolute maximum I could afford, I get a plan that has a $10,000 deductible and doesn't cover any prescription drugs, not even generics. Hey, perhaps that's why I don't waste my money on it!!! This whole health care mess is just a trick anyway. Our illegal "President" (Who was born in Indonesia and Knows it!) Barry Soetoro and his NWO handlers want to provoke violent resistance so that they can have the opportunity to declare martial law and round up the excess population for efficient disposal. See below.

No, plain and simply.

So, your only form of rebuttal is a video from a lame bunch of techo-sissies? Sorry, but that's not good enough. Prove to me that you at least glanced at the links I provided. Otherwise, your response is laughable.

How do you respond to the dude on the soapbox shouting about the end coming on the corner of the street? I mean, I would give you change, but I don't think the quarters I put in my cd drive will come out yours.

Man, that is one incoherent response. Maybe you should be the one hanging around on the corner. As for the warning of the end times, I've been doing research on this topic for the last couple of years, and the more I learn, the more sure I am. Screw health insurance, put that money toward dehydrated food, water purification equipment, weapons and all the ammo you can get.

Alex Jones and Glenn Beck will be the death of you, mate...

Your theory is that of a paranoid, delusion mind. I have no problem with you having that perspective, but I will not hesitate to fight fire with fire. You flamed this topic in a way that pisses me off, and I responded.

warpcrafter wrote:So, your only form of rebuttal is a video from a lame bunch of techo-sissies? Sorry, but that's not good enough. Prove to me that you at least glanced at the links I provided. Otherwise, your response is laughable.

Hang on, you were being serious with the Indonesian president stuff*? Do we really, guaranteed, 100% have a birther amongst us?






*I thought he was meant to Kenyan, when did that change?

ShumaGorath wrote:My previous degree with an AS in applied graphic design.

Not to derail anything, but is it possible to get a degree in theoretical graphic design?

And thanks for bringing Fate out of the woodwork Shummy. It's been a calm and pleasant few weeks without him. Top marks!

sebster wrote:

warpcrafter wrote:So, your only form of rebuttal is a video from a lame bunch of techo-sissies? Sorry, but that's not good enough. Prove to me that you at least glanced at the links I provided. Otherwise, your response is laughable.

Hang on, you were being serious with the Indonesian president stuff*? Do we really, guaranteed, 100% have a birther amongst us?






*I thought he was meant to Kenyan, when did that change?

Depends on which conspiracy theory Glenn Beck is pushing that day. I figure birthers are closet Biden fans since they want him to be President so bad.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Well by your terms there is no social contract so why am I supporting any of these people or you? Frankly this works for me as I am way more heavily armed then you turkeys. Man I am going to make some bank at the LGS tonight.

Mmm, I like those titans. Give them to me.
No
Well according to Shuma social contracts are less than words on paper. so (Click) I'll take those Titans.

Go ahead. The IRS has more guns than you do. I live in the real world, and for someone who understands social contracts so poorly as yourself (Whats your stance on torture again?) I hope you're a real good shot. Or hey, they could just bring other lawyers down on you, I'm sure your not the only one in the world with a gun!

This would be a good television special.

That argument would only hold boy toy if there is a social contract. per you, there isn't. I'm not after the IRS's stuff. I'm after YOUR stuff.
Ah reminds me of the good old days in LA.


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sebster wrote:The article posted in the OP was an interesting read, thanks for that Shuma. It’s obviously in favour of the HCR bill, but there’s plenty of information in there that shows the strengths and weaknesses of the bill and could lead to some interesting conversation. Personally I’m not convinced about every cost control measure, and am a little concerned about paying simply for a patient and not his care (as that would provide too great an incentive towards too little treatment, it would be better to have the profit based payment on treating a patient, with treatment paid on cost recovery only).

It’s just a shame we didn’t get that conversation in this thread. Instead we’ve got the same folk posting the same rhetoric about bad old government. Do you realise how empty all that rhetoric is? Is reality that uninteresting to you that you’d stay wrapped up in your ideologies?

Yea because you have an open mind to arguments there Sebster? The same old arguments are the correct arguments.

Obama is going to do it by.... (see 1.23 into clip)





Now imagine if G.W.Bush had said that.
It would have been plastered on every news service around the world.

Blokus wrote:People as voters have an avenue to express their opinions in 2010. This was not done in any underhanded way. It is easy to be in the opposition and make sound bites. All I am saying is that this bill was passed legally, and if the people are really pissed they have recourse through election. No ones USA is the same USA!

True that.

Here's my beef. Why didn't we just review the systems, and take the best one? With the same tort standards and requirement that everyone have to have it, not a system for the rich and influential and a crapcare for the worker drones. I'd have been ok with that, not the tidal wave of miasmic bribe laden filth we got.

Frazzled wrote:Its not trolling if the initial post is trolling.

Just because the original article posted is from Newsweek doesn't necessarily
mean that it's trolling.

If he had posted the subject line as :

"ARTICLE FOR STUPID (OPPOSITIONAL SIDE OF CHOICE)"

then that would have been trolling.

I think Jfraz needs a hug and a drink. Or maybe the order should be drink then a hug?

Drink, hug, drive the man home?

MagickalMemories wrote:
What are you talking about?
Who gets it for free under the new Obama plan?
I've done a bit of reading on it (from both sides) and haven't seen ANYONE getting FREE healthcare.
Eric

Apparently you missed the part about subsidies for those earning less than XXX dollars. What do you think that means exactly? It's when you take money away from someone and give it to someone else.

Do you really expect that everyone will be paying their own way? Of course not. Just like over 50% of those filing IRS tax returns actually take more out of the system than they pay in, we fully expect that a minority of US taxpayers will shoulder the burden of costs.

Blokus wrote: This was not done in any underhanded way. It is easy to be in the opposition and make sound bites. All I am saying is that this bill was passed legally, and if the people are really pissed they have recourse through election.

Not done in an underhanded way... that's amusing. No, back room deals, exemptions for key votes and outright lies to parties to assuage conscience at the 11th hour... nope nothing underhanded there. I will give Pelosi this: The Dems are "transparent" in their corruption.

Any read the report Fidelity Mutual posted today. With this "New " health care I will have to save on top of my retirement 200k to pay for the margins for doctors and such when I retire. Now I make almost 79k a year(not bad for only a year of college eh) sounds like a lot but it isn't. I am 27 years old....how in the hell can I save with a mortgage and family 200k on top of what I would need to have saved in my IRA's for the time I retire. Who the hell can pull that off I'm sorry I am damn good with my finances and have made a lot of money in the past in the stock market(just ask the single moms at the clubs I used to frequent) but that is ungodly. Instead of say issuing a reform to bring about more civil service hjobs or jobs in general we are now so far in the debt it's not even funny. That 293 billion is only for 4 years if you read the Gov't report. For 10 years it will be another 1.4 trillion if you read what the financial analisysts have posted. The end of an era my friends.

@shuma: ok your in college and I give you a lot of credit as you can learn some great stuff on book there., but this isn't trying to be a personal attack you have to see that your real world experience is very limited. 5 Internet cookies if somone can state who said this quote " a man should never enter politics until their 30's as they don't have a clue what they are talking about". Now I see you are a smart individual and you have a strong knowledge, but in debate especially over the internet you have to be a little more clear and concise, and when you start by going straight into personal attacks as in some of your posts you lose a lot of credability to some people thus limiting what you are actually saying.

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malfred wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Its not trolling if the initial post is trolling.

Just because the original article posted is from Newsweek doesn't necessarily
mean that it's trolling.

If he had posted the subject line as :

"ARTICLE FOR STUPID (OPPOSITIONAL SIDE OF CHOICE)"

then that would have been trolling.

I think Jfraz needs a hug and a drink. Or maybe the order should be drink then a hug?

Drink, hug, drive the man home?

Much better than, "drink the drive, hug the man home"