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My vote went with Dark Elves. Lots of different possibilities and tons of fun.

In the hands of a skilled and experienced player, WoC, Beastmen, Lizards, and Skaven can all equally dish it out.

I played a strong player two weeks ago (my DE vs his Beastment) and it was a fantastic game. The ambush can work wonders for disrupting battle plans and his Minotaur Deathstar was pretty damn vicious (Doombull w/ goo, BSB Hero Bull, 6x Minotaurs w/ goo). This unit is very susceptible to magic and shooting (what isn't these days...) but stay out of its way.

Our FLGS manager has a solid WoC list but also has an awesome anti-magic/CC killy Lizard list that no one at our store has beaten except Slaanesh Daemons.

Empire can still blast and pound you to dust and fighting the Thorek Gun Line is never fun.

VC are too...blah, yall already said it best.

Vulcan wrote:Glad I don't face any HE players around here. 6 Specials and 4 Rare at 2K, with ASF armywide! Youch!

How are HE not one of the leaders for most competitive? How does anyone else deal with that? Give that many special and rare choices to the Dark Elves and we'd be able to take that top spot from DoC, even without an armywide ASF!

First of all: those 'extra' Rare slots aren't really 'extra' Rare slots. High Elves' Repeater Bolt Throwers take up a Rare slot each, unlike the Dark Elves' Reaper Bolt Throwers, of which you can take 2 in a single Rare slot. The other Rare option the High Elves have is comparable to Harpies. Yes, those no slot taking, Dark Elves units.

It is an advantage to be able to take 6 Special choices, though the High Elves' Special choices aren't really that great. Swordmasters, White Lions, Phoenix Guard and Dragon Princes all have their uses. Besides, since the High Elves' Core choices are overpriced they rely on their Special choices to fight the battles.

im wondering why exactly daemons are considered to be the top powerhouse? i realize they have some nice characters and some neat other choices as well, but otherwise im failing to see what makes them "unbeatable" in anycase, my vote goes to WoC for a good strong army. they have a little of everything, that can all work well in concert.

DarthSpader wrote:im wondering why exactly daemons are considered to be the top powerhouse? i realize they have some nice characters and some neat other choices as well, but otherwise im failing to see what makes them "unbeatable" in anycase, my vote goes to WoC for a good strong army. they have a little of everything, that can all work well in concert.

Go watch a serious WFB Tourney and its DoC players, then you'll see. They're not unbeatable, they just amplify certain strategic tricks to almost extremes.

Well, it could be that their Tzeentch Core generate PD % DD...thats a REALLY big part of it.

I think it really depends. If you are looking for a broken army in general, then DE are the way to go. So many good competitive builds can come out of that book.

Although, if you want the most competive army list outside of Deamons then I voted for WoC, with Lizards right behind them. WoC has one super competitive list that does really well against demons and good enough against everyone else in order to win. Same goes for Lizards. I think skaven have a chance to be super gay as well, but so far I just haven't figured out exactly how to make them work.

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Automatically Appended Next Post:

bd1085 wrote:

DarthSpader wrote:im wondering why exactly daemons are considered to be the top powerhouse? i realize they have some nice characters and some neat other choices as well, but otherwise im failing to see what makes them "unbeatable" in anycase, my vote goes to WoC for a good strong army. they have a little of everything, that can all work well in concert.

Go watch a serious WFB Tourney and its DoC players, then you'll see. They're not unbeatable, they just amplify certain strategic tricks to almost extremes.

such as?

I went through the Beastmen list last night.

Their big problem, as it always has been is leadership and panic.
Take a look at pumbagors... Ld 6- You kill one (shooting/magic) and unless they are within 12 inches of the general you have a good chance they will be running. The same applies for pretty much every unit in the list bar the bestigors and monsters.
For 'friendly' games the beasts monster selections are great as you can tailor what to bring but in a tourney situation a Jabberslythe will be useless as about half of opponents are ITP now in the Oz tourney circuit, and the others have roles but can be 'distracted' or taken out quite easily.

DarthSpader wrote:

such as?

- Access to flying rank breakers
- Wizard levels that come out of core,
- No one panics,
- Everyone causes fear,
- Hard to beat them by a lot in combat, and when you do, pop test is even better than VC crumble, especially with stubborn banner around
- Can spam their good "magic items"
- Kairos is easily in the running for most brutal caster out there
- Leadership bomb is really rough (try taking terror tests at -3 to -5 leadership)
- Siren song is like a great Dwarf rune, except it works against *everything* and can be spammed

etc, etc. Do a little online research and you should be able to come up with some face melting DoC lists and tactics. They still lose if played poorly, but they've got a lot of things going for them

RZ

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I went through the Beastmen list last night.

Their big problem, as it always has been is leadership and panic.
Take a look at pumbagors... Ld 6- You kill one (shooting/magic) and unless they are within 12 inches of the general you have a good chance they will be running. The same applies for pretty much every unit in the list bar the bestigors and monsters.
For 'friendly' games the beasts monster selections are great as you can tailor what to bring but in a tourney situation a Jabberslythe will be useless as about half of opponents are ITP now in the Oz tourney circuit, and the others have roles but can be 'distracted' or taken out quite easily.

They are a horde list, if some ungors are killed and they panic, it isn't like there isn't 5 more units where they came from. With how the ambush rule works, and the cheapness of the normal units, it encourages lots of duplicate units so half can come in for ambush. Each individual unit is so cheap it isn't a big deal if you lose any. Ask a WoC player how much he cares if a unit of warhounds panics. Ungor archers cost a very similar price, and can shoot and outflank.

When you take a big monster list with nearly nothing but ogre bases and bigger, then you are playing a list that is just like ogre kindoms, but worse leadership.... Now does that sound like a good idea? Sure the razorgors are really good, but you don't need that many to help the horde, and you don't need to load up with the giant variants either. You can build a huge model count army if you horde up, and still have enough points to pay for some powerful heavy hitters like chariots, minotaurs, centigors and razorgors.

Personally I think beasts are a really strong book, their only problem is too many ooh shiny units that distract from the main strength of the list: a CC horde army that isn't handicapped like O&G.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:I went through the Beastmen list last night.

Their big problem, as it always has been is leadership and panic.
Take a look at pumbagors... Ld 6- You kill one (shooting/magic) and unless they are within 12 inches of the general you have a good chance they will be running. The same applies for pretty much every unit in the list bar the bestigors and monsters.
For 'friendly' games the beasts monster selections are great as you can tailor what to bring but in a tourney situation a Jabberslythe will be useless as about half of opponents are ITP now in the Oz tourney circuit, and the others have roles but can be 'distracted' or taken out quite easily.

We have a tourney circuit?
OT: I went for WE, purely for the can't touch this factor of good WE lists.