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It doesn't matter. Your chess analalogy is correct but for a different reason. You need equality on the board.
You're arguing that if they were both able to play with all queens it would be a better game.

Its a non argument.

So-called GTs in the U.S. with comp. force strong players to construct the best handicapped list they can. This involves guessing about what the TO thinks is 'broken' (or if it's your LGS you can ask him while holding $150 in hand looking at new models). Comp. dehumanizes strong players by making deviousness and comp-manipulation necessary. Oh the humanity. To a certain extent the same skills are required in building strong, non-comp lists but copetitive players prefer to work with a codex and build the best list possible rather than guess at what TOs may or may not think is a WAAC list.

olympia wrote:So-called GTs in the U.S. with comp. force strong players to construct the best handicapped list they can. This involves guessing about what the TO thinks is 'broken' (or if it's your LGS you can ask him while holding $150 in hand looking at new models). Comp. dehumanizes strong players by making deviousness and comp-manipulation necessary. Oh the humanity. To a certain extent the same skills are required in building strong, non-comp lists but copetitive players prefer to work with a codex and build the best list possible rather than guess at what TOs may or may not think is a WAAC list.

Hyperbole aside, there is a kernel of an argument here. Closed Comp (where competitors do not know the Judges biases ahead of time Creates a distinctly unfair situation. It could very easily be argued that of all the "hobby scoring" a Closed Comp score (a negative rating of the user's army list building capability based on unknown preconceived notions by one or more judges) will unfairly influence competition. because by the very definition a unknowable negative score is unfair.

If Comp is used solely for first round pairing and doesn't contribute to final scoring however, I fail to see how this is an issue.

So there you have it. In my opinion, Comp. scoring (where those scores are used in the final ranking) in Tournaments could unfairly affect competition at tournaments (indeed, it is intended to). I doubt anyone will argue this point.

I continue to posit that the level of competition (if tournament scoring includes paint and sports) is independent of the trials or events held at the tournament. I will contend that if your intent is to use results of a Tournament to make assertions about either player skill (at the game) or Army capability (in terms of "power levels") you would do well to limit your observations to battle points in non-comp-scored tournaments.

Exactly. The level of competition is not dependent on the issue of comp, which is its own debatable issue.

Frazzled wrote:Exactly. The level of competition is not dependent on the issue of comp, which is its own debatable issue.

I know Education in Texas is not doing that well at the moment, and I am aware of your pedigree, so I will attribute your mis-reading of my statement to a lack of coffee.

skipmcne wrote:
( I will contend that if your intent is to use results of a Tournament to make assertions about either player skill (at the game) or Army capability (in terms of "power levels") you would do well to limit your observations to battle points in non-comp-scored tournaments.

Therefore given the absence of such tournaments in the US we can conclude that U.S. 'tournaments' are indeed less competitive or there is no way to judge how competitive they are because they are inherently non-competive. Of that which we cannot speak we must remain silent.

skipmcne wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Exactly. The level of competition is not dependent on the issue of comp, which is its own debatable issue.

I know Education in Texas is not doing that well at the moment, and I am aware of your pedigree, so I will attribute your mis-reading of my statement to a lack of coffee.

I continue to posit that the level of competition (if tournament scoring includes paint and sports) is independent of the trials or events held at the tournament. I will contend that if your intent is to use results of a Tournament to make assertions about either player skill (at the game) or Army capability (in terms of "power levels") you would do well to limit your observations to battle points in non-comp-scored tournaments.

I mean tthis statement. I'm not arguing for or against comp here. I'm saying that competition is independent of that.

olympia wrote:

skipmcne wrote:
( I will contend that if your intent is to use results of a Tournament to make assertions about either player skill (at the game) or Army capability (in terms of "power levels") you would do well to limit your observations to battle points in non-comp-scored tournaments.

Therefore given the absence of such tournaments in the US we can conclude that U.S. 'tournaments' are indeed less competitive or there is no way to judge how competitive they are because they are inherently non-competive. Of that which we cannot speak we must remain silent.

No, Therefore we can conclude that final rankings from us Tournaments are determined by means that some players ("Net-Deckers" is a pejorative term for these folks) find objectionable. These folks desire a clear, simple world where things are assigned easy numbers and winners are determined solely by strategic ability. The addition of (what they deem) non-competitive scoring (for such events as sportsmanship, theme, and modelling and painting) dilutes the ease with which they can determine either their worth, or the relative worth of their army and efforts. As such, these events are deemed inherently abhorrent and must be reviled.

Let's go point by point. I've added the necessary clarifications in bold and deleted your needless ad hominems.

skipmcne wrote:
No, Therefore we can conclude that final rankings from us hobby events are determined by means that some players find objectionable due to their subjective nature and the ease with which abuse occurs (e.g., 'chipmunking sports)..

These folks desire a clear, simple world where things are assigned easy numbers and winners are determined solely by strategic ability (i.e. unrestricted list design) and tactical ability on the day.

The addition of (what they deem) subjective scoring (for such events as sportsmanship, theme, and modelling and painting) renders the event non-competitive.

As such, these events are deemed inherently abhorrent and must be reviled. (You are here I think referring to the way hobbyists view competitive tournaments?)

The idea that comp or soft scores make a tournament less competitive is plain wrong. The idea that we have tons of tourneys where soft scores are greater than 50% of the finla score is also wrong. Most large tourneys have battle points as the primary source of all points, almost to the exclusion of all others. Soft scores are included to maintain a minimum of decorum at the least and that is it.

The fact of the matter is most major US tournaments are battle point centric and players rarely take the comp scoring of the event into account. There have been 1-2 recent high profile exceptions to this on Dakka, but those were the exceptions and not the norm.

Anyone who will adjust there list for purely comp purposes is not that competitive to begin with and/or was looking to have a built in excuse for when they lost anyway.

olympia wrote:
No, Therefore we can conclude that final rankings from us tournaments are determined by means that some players find objectionable .

These folks desire a clear, simple world where things are assigned easy numbers and winners are determined solely by gaming.

recorrected your incorrect clarification.

You want tournaments based on gaming only and view that as the only factor for competition.
I am not saying anything about the preference for or against that, only that it doesn't go to the issue of whether US tournaments are less competitive in general.

A competition can be defined and expanded to include any number of factors. The idea that every US tourney needs to be identical to be competitive is also not true. Would you claim that the World Tennis Tour is uncompetitive because they play on clay in France, grass in England and concrete in New York? Those TO's are changing the playing field for those Grand Slam events, but players are still competing at them and boosting their World Tennis Rankings. Do MLB teams need to play at fields that have the same conditions and dimensions to be competitive? I guess the Astros aren't competitive because they play in a dome.

Frazzled wrote:

olympia wrote:
No, Therefore we can conclude that final rankings from us tournaments are determined by means that some players find objectionable .

These folks desire a clear, simple world where things are assigned easy numbers and winners are determined solely by gaming.

recorrected your incorrect clarification.

You want tournaments based on gaming only and view that as the only factor for competition. Great but that doesn't go to the issue of whether US tournaments are less competitive.

They may or may not be 'more' competitive. As long as subjective scoring makes up a large chunk of the scoring (41% in the case of Adepticon) there is no way to tell.



Automatically Appended Next Post:
And Darth, the new yankee stadium has been lambasted because it is a home-run factory. This is the equivalent of manipulating comp certainly. I believe the league is looking into some action about this?

olympia wrote:

skipmcne wrote:
( I will contend that if your intent is to use results of a Tournament to make assertions about either player skill (at the game) or Army capability (in terms of "power levels") you would do well to limit your observations to battle points in non-comp-scored tournaments.

Therefore given the absence of such tournaments in the US we can conclude that U.S. 'tournaments' are indeed less competitive or there is no way to judge how competitive they are because they are inherently non-competive. Of that which we cannot speak we must remain silent.

olympia, I don't know how many times we're going to have to tell you that there's plenty of non-comp tourneys in the U.S. before you get it into that skull of yours. GW's own GTs were non-comp for years before they were cancelled. The 'Ard Boyz tourney doesn't have comp, painting or sports.

You're extrapolating far too much from a single, medium-sized, somewhat quirky tourney that got a lot of drama here and elsewhere. I've said my peace on that tourney (I was an attendee) and so has everyone else, which means it's time to LET IT GO.

DarthDiggler wrote:A competition can be defined and expanded to include any number of factors. The idea that every US tourney needs to be identical to be competitive is also not true. Would you claim that the World Tennis Tour is uncompetitive because they play on clay in France, grass in England and concrete in New York? Those TO's are changing the playing field for those Grand Slam events, but players are still competing at them and boosting their World Tennis Rankings. Do MLB teams need to play at fields that have the same conditions and dimensions to be competitive? I guess the Astros aren't competitive because they play in a dome.

Here's what I would have said if sobriety ever reared its ugly head.

gorgon wrote:
olympia, I don't know how many times we're going to have to tell you that there's plenty of non-comp tourneys in the U.S. before you get it into that skull of yours. GW's own GTs were non-comp for years before they were cancelled. The 'Ard Boyz tourney doesn't have comp, painting or sports.

You're extrapolating far too much from a single, medium-sized, somewhat quirky tourney that got a lot of drama here and elsewhere. I've said my peace on that tourney (I was an attendee) and so has everyone else, which means it's time to LET IT GO.

Thick skull? Words can hurt gorgon. Off the top of my thick skull I can think of that broadside bash thing, that philadephia one, the socal slaughter, and adepticon. These are (or were ) major events with subjective scoring. It's the socal one only, I think, that has a second golden ticket based purely on battlepoints. Why don't you list the major upcoming U.S. GTs that are devoid of subjective scoring. In fact, why don't you list all that provide golden tickets to the las vegas GT that are devoid of subjective scoring...

olympia wrote:
The addition of (what they deem) subjective scoring (for such events as sportsmanship, theme, and modelling and painting) renders the event non-competitive.

This is the only point we disagree on. The disagreement lies solely in the differing definition of competition. You would prefer all tournaments (UK and US) involving the game to be determined by scoring whilst playing the game.

You are asserting that these different kinds of competition are less competitive than those events that rank competitors solely upon gaming.

Would you accept the ETC as the "ultimate" example of your kind of tournament?

Here gorgon, I've copied and pasted the Tournament Circuit for you. I check three randomly and they all had subjective scoring. Perhaps in the past there were competitive events but it no longer appears to be the case for the vast majority of tournaments.


Community and Events Tournament Circuit 2010-2011 North American Tournament Circuit Tournament Circuit Master Events List
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Tournament Details - As tournaments approach, you can find details of each one posted.

Ciruit March 2010- May 2011
Month of Event Year Event Name Date Location Council Member Number of Players Expected Fantasy 40K WOTR/LOTR
March 2010 The Lonewolf 12th-14th Dallas,TX Dave Bowman/ Brett Amundsen 100 100
March 2010 ConQuest Armageddon 19th-21st Las Vegas,NV Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
March 2010 The Warmasters Fantasy Challenge 20th-21st Kitchener-Waterloo,ON Nate Stevens 148 148
March 2010 Adepticon 26th-28th Chicago,IL Hank Edley/Jeff Chua/Matt Weeks 1200 375 775 50
March 2010 Warhammer Canadian Spectacular 26th-28th Calgary,AB Jonathon Gartshore Baxter 64 32 32
March 2010 WizCon Conflict Toronto 26th-28th Toronto,ON Aaron Fishkow 100 50 50
April 2010 ConQuest Ragnorak 9th-11th San Fran,CA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
April 2010 The Colonial GT 9th-11th Atlantic City,NJ Matthew York 120 120
April 2010 Slaughter in Space 16th-18th Los Angeles,CA Mike Garner 150 50 100
May 2010 Astronomi-Con Toronto 1st-2nd Toronto,ON Mike Major/Christian Augst 50 50
May 2010 Capital City Carnage 1st-2nd Austin,TX Lex Simon 82 82
May 2010 The Alamo 40K GT 22nd-23rd San Antonio,TX Johnathon Bailey 74 74
May 2010 ConQuest Cataclysm 21st-23rd Denver,CO Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
May 2010 ConQuest Onslaught TBD Edmonton,AB Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
June 2010 Bolter Beach 4th-6th Sarasota,FL Steve Turner 220 100 100 20
June 2010 Patriot Games 5th-6th Fayetteville,AR Dennis Collier 56 56
June 2010 WizCon Conflict Philadelphia 11th-13th Philadelphia,PA Aaron Fishkow 300 150 150
June 2010 Astronomi-Con Dallas 19th-20th Richardson,TX Mike Major/Christian Augst 80 80
June 2010 ConQuest Invasion 26th-27th Los Angeles,CA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
June 2010 Quake City Rumble 11th-13th San Fransisco,CA Mike Scaletti/Ed Philips 108 108
July 2010 ICGT 10th-11th Baltimore,MD Nicholas Walters 200 80 80 40
July 2010 ConQuest Annihilation 10th-11th Vancouver,BC Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
July 2010 Buckeye Battles IV 10th-11th Delaware,OH Jeff Parkhurst 100 100
July 2010 The SITE 16th-18th Orlando,FL John Petrelli 50 50
July 2010 Game Summit 17th-18th Ottawa,ON Corey Tamas 100 50 50
July 2010 Astronomi-Con Winnipeg 24th-25th Winnipeg,MB Mike Major/Christian Augst 70 70
July 2010 The Big Show 24th-25th Media,PA Mike Clark 70 70
July 2010 SpoCon 30th-1st Spokane,WA Chris Snell 60 20 40
July 2010 Bolscon 29th-1st Austin,TX Larry Vela/Jon Wolf 310 100 180 30
August 2010 Nova Open 7th Springfield,VA Mike Brandt 128 64 64
August 2010 ConQuest GT Northwest Apocalypse 13th-15th Bellevue,WA Gabriel Vega TBD TBD TBD TBD
August 2010 WizCon Conflict Chicago 19th-22nd Chicago,IL Aaron Fishkow 200 100 100
August 2010 Astronomi-Con Vancouver 21st-22nd Vancouver,BC Mike Major/Christian Augst 50 50
August 2010 Bayou Battles VII 7th-8th Houston,TX Rick Hoy 84 84
August 2010 Socal Slaughter 20th-22nd Los Angeles,CA Mike Garner 150 100 50
September 2010 Crossroads GT 24th-26th Horsehead,NY Corey Reynolds 76 76
September 2010 The Warmaster's 40K Challenge 25th-26th Kitchener-Waterloo,ON Nate Stevens 148 148
September 2010 ConQuest Destruction TBD Calgary,AB Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
October 2010 WizCon Conflict New England 1st-3rd Boston,MA Aaron Fishkow 200 100 100
October 2010 Da Grand Waaagh GT 2nd-3rd San Francisco,CA Dave Sackl/ Dan Benavidez 180 80 80 20
October 2010 ConQuest Insurrection 2nd-3rd Portland,OR Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
October 2010 WizCon Conflict Big Apple 7th-10th New York,NY Aaron Fishkow 300 150 150
October 2010 WizCon Conflict New Jersey 15th-17th Edsion,NJ Aaron Fishkow 200 100 100
October 2010 Neoncon 23rd-24th Las Vegas,NV Mike Garner 60 30 30
October 2010 Storm the Coast 30th-31st Halifax,NS Pat McGrath 80 30 50
October 2010 Da Boyz GT TBD Rochester,NY Jay Woodcock 110 30 80
October 2010 40Kon TBD Dallas,TX Dave Bowman/Brett Amundsen 100 100
November 2010 Mechanicon 5th-7th Philadelphia,PA Tony Spino 70 70
November 2010 The Battle for Supremacy 6th Murfreesboro,TN Mathew Haffner 120 120
November 2010 The Alamo GT 6th-7th San Antonio,TX Johnathon Bailey 74 74
November 2010 ConQuest 6th-7th Orange County,CA Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
November 2010 North Star Tournament 6th-7th Minneapolis, MN John Stentz 70 70
November 2010 Turkey Shoot 20th-21st Media,PA Mike Clark 120 120
November 2010 ConQuest Mondo Mayhem 27th-28th Sacramento,CA Gabriel Vega 80 30 50

January 2011 Conquest Slaughter TBD Seattle,WA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
January 2011 The Conflict GT TBD Nanuet,NY Aaron Fishkow 110 70 40
January 2011 Sooiepalooza TBD Fayetteville,AR Dennis Collier 100 60 40
January 2011 Ironman XVI TBD Las Vegas,NV Vern Harlow 80 30 50
February 2011 Gottacon 4th-6th Victoria,BC Michael Lum 80 40 40
February 2011 Broadside Bash TBD Los Angeles,CA John Macomber 150 50 50 50
February 2011 A Gathering in the Desert 19th-20th Phoenix,AZ Tim Kulinski 35 35
February 2011 A Gathering in the Desert 26th-27th Phoenix,AZ Tim Kulinski 50 50
February 2011 St Valentines Day Massacre 27th-28th Media,PA Mike Clark 100 100
February 2011 Genghis Con TBD Denver,CO Elliot Vigil 50 50
February 2011 ConQuest TBD TBD Calgary,AB Teri Litorco 80 40 40
March 2011 The Lonewolf 25th-27th Dallas,TX Dave Bowman/Brett Amundsen 100 100
March 2011 The Warmasters Fantasy Challenge TBD Kitchener-Waterloo,ON Nate Stevens 148 148
March 2011 Adepticon TBD Chicago,IL Hank Edley/Jeff Chua/Matt Weeks 1200 375 775 50
March 2011 Warhammer Canadian Spectacular TBD Calgary,AB Jonathon Gartshore Baxter 128 64 64
March 2011 ConQuest Armageddon TBD Las Vegas,NV Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
April 2011 ConQuest Ragnorak TBD San Fran,CA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
April 2011 Slaughter in Space TBD Los Angeles,CA Mike Garner 150 50 100
April 2011 The Colonial GT TBD Atlantic City,NJ Matthew York 100 100
May 2011 Astronomi-con Toronto TBD Toronto,ON Mike Major/Christian Augst 50 50
May 2011 Capital City Carnage TBD Austin,TX Lex Simon 82 82
May 2011 The Alamo 40K GT TBD San Antonio,TX Johnathon Bailey 100 100
May 2011 ConQuest Cataclysm TBD Denver,CO Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
May 2011 ConQuest Onslaught TBD Edmonton,AB Gabriel Vega 80 30 50

olympia wrote:

gorgon wrote:
olympia, I don't know how many times we're going to have to tell you that there's plenty of non-comp tourneys in the U.S. before you get it into that skull of yours. GW's own GTs were non-comp for years before they were cancelled. The 'Ard Boyz tourney doesn't have comp, painting or sports.

You're extrapolating far too much from a single, medium-sized, somewhat quirky tourney that got a lot of drama here and elsewhere. I've said my peace on that tourney (I was an attendee) and so has everyone else, which means it's time to LET IT GO.

Thick skull? Words can hurt gorgon. Off the top of my thick skull I can think of that broadside bash thing, that philadephia one, the socal slaughter, and adepticon. These are (or were ) major events with subjective scoring. It's the socal one only, I think, that has a second golden ticket based purely on battlepoints. Why don't you list the major upcoming U.S. GTs that are devoid of subjective scoring. In fact, why don't you list all that provide golden tickets to the las vegas GT that are devoid of subjective scoring...

Modquisition on.
Everyone remember Dakka Rule #1 here: Be polite!
Lets ratchet it back down people or the thread will be closed and warnings given where appropriate.

skipmcne wrote:

olympia wrote:
The addition of (what they deem) subjective scoring (for such events as sportsmanship, theme, and modelling and painting) renders the event non-competitive.

This is the only point we disagree on. The disagreement lies solely in the differing definition of competition. You would prefer all tournaments (UK and US) involving the game to be determined by scoring whilst playing the game.

You are asserting that these different kinds of competition are less competitive than those events that rank competitors solely upon gaming.

Would you accept the ETC as the "ultimate" example of your kind of tournament?

As I said to frazzled, the u.s. events may or may not be more competitive but as long as they have 'wacky! fun!' missions and subjective scoring it's impossible to say. The throne of skulls is not the ultimate event, but I would say it offers a better means for assessing individual skill at 40k and the relative strengths of armies.

Hrm...some people seem to think that anything subjective cannot be competitive.

So, I guess we should do away with any of these competitions:

Gymnastics
Figure skating (pairs and individual)
Pretty much all "X-games" (Skateboarding, inline skating, free running, snow boarding, anything with a vert-ramp, half-pipe, or ramp)
Dressage
Dance (jazz, hip hop, salsa, ballroom, etc.)

I could go on.

The point is that something being scored subjectively does not inherently mean that the event in questions is no competitive.

However, if any sort of competitive event that is judged subjectively fails to notify competitors (far in advance of the event) what will be judged and how it will be scored in as much detail as possible, then the event is doomed to failure as far as being "competitive" is concerned. If nobody knows what the rules are, then how can anyone compete?

olympia wrote:
Ciruit March 2010- May 2011
Month of Event Year Event Name Date Location Council Member Number of Players Expected Fantasy 40K WOTR/LOTR
March 2010 The Lonewolf 12th-14th Dallas,TX Dave Bowman/ Brett Amundsen 100 100
March 2010 ConQuest Armageddon 19th-21st Las Vegas,NV Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
March 2010 The Warmasters Fantasy Challenge 20th-21st Kitchener-Waterloo,ON Nate Stevens 148 148
March 2010 Adepticon 26th-28th Chicago,IL Hank Edley/Jeff Chua/Matt Weeks 1200 375 775 50
March 2010 Warhammer Canadian Spectacular 26th-28th Calgary,AB Jonathon Gartshore Baxter 64 32 32
March 2010 WizCon Conflict Toronto 26th-28th Toronto,ON Aaron Fishkow 100 50 50
April 2010 ConQuest Ragnorak 9th-11th San Fran,CA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
April 2010 The Colonial GT 9th-11th Atlantic City,NJ Matthew York 120 120
April 2010 Slaughter in Space 16th-18th Los Angeles,CA Mike Garner 150 50 100
May 2010 Astronomi-Con Toronto 1st-2nd Toronto,ON Mike Major/Christian Augst 50 50
May 2010 Capital City Carnage 1st-2nd Austin,TX Lex Simon 82 82
May 2010 The Alamo 40K GT 22nd-23rd San Antonio,TX Johnathon Bailey 74 74
May 2010 ConQuest Cataclysm 21st-23rd Denver,CO Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
May 2010 ConQuest Onslaught TBD Edmonton,AB Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
June 2010 Bolter Beach 4th-6th Sarasota,FL Steve Turner 220 100 100 20
June 2010 Patriot Games 5th-6th Fayetteville,AR Dennis Collier 56 56
June 2010 WizCon Conflict Philadelphia 11th-13th Philadelphia,PA Aaron Fishkow 300 150 150
June 2010 Astronomi-Con Dallas 19th-20th Richardson,TX Mike Major/Christian Augst 80 80
June 2010 ConQuest Invasion 26th-27th Los Angeles,CA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
June 2010 Quake City Rumble 11th-13th San Fransisco,CA Mike Scaletti/Ed Philips 108 108
July 2010 ICGT 10th-11th Baltimore,MD Nicholas Walters 200 80 80 40
July 2010 ConQuest Annihilation 10th-11th Vancouver,BC Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
July 2010 Buckeye Battles IV 10th-11th Delaware,OH Jeff Parkhurst 100 100
July 2010 The SITE 16th-18th Orlando,FL John Petrelli 50 50
July 2010 Game Summit 17th-18th Ottawa,ON Corey Tamas 100 50 50
July 2010 Astronomi-Con Winnipeg 24th-25th Winnipeg,MB Mike Major/Christian Augst 70 70
July 2010 The Big Show 24th-25th Media,PA Mike Clark 70 70
July 2010 SpoCon 30th-1st Spokane,WA Chris Snell 60 20 40
July 2010 Bolscon 29th-1st Austin,TX Larry Vela/Jon Wolf 310 100 180 30
August 2010 Nova Open 7th Springfield,VA Mike Brandt 128 64 64
August 2010 ConQuest GT Northwest Apocalypse 13th-15th Bellevue,WA Gabriel Vega TBD TBD TBD TBD
August 2010 WizCon Conflict Chicago 19th-22nd Chicago,IL Aaron Fishkow 200 100 100
August 2010 Astronomi-Con Vancouver 21st-22nd Vancouver,BC Mike Major/Christian Augst 50 50
August 2010 Bayou Battles VII 7th-8th Houston,TX Rick Hoy 84 84
August 2010 Socal Slaughter 20th-22nd Los Angeles,CA Mike Garner 150 100 50
September 2010 Crossroads GT 24th-26th Horsehead,NY Corey Reynolds 76 76
September 2010 The Warmaster's 40K Challenge 25th-26th Kitchener-Waterloo,ON Nate Stevens 148 148
September 2010 ConQuest Destruction TBD Calgary,AB Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
October 2010 WizCon Conflict New England 1st-3rd Boston,MA Aaron Fishkow 200 100 100
October 2010 Da Grand Waaagh GT 2nd-3rd San Francisco,CA Dave Sackl/ Dan Benavidez 180 80 80 20
October 2010 ConQuest Insurrection 2nd-3rd Portland,OR Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
October 2010 WizCon Conflict Big Apple 7th-10th New York,NY Aaron Fishkow 300 150 150
October 2010 WizCon Conflict New Jersey 15th-17th Edsion,NJ Aaron Fishkow 200 100 100
October 2010 Neoncon 23rd-24th Las Vegas,NV Mike Garner 60 30 30
October 2010 Storm the Coast 30th-31st Halifax,NS Pat McGrath 80 30 50
October 2010 Da Boyz GT TBD Rochester,NY Jay Woodcock 110 30 80
October 2010 40Kon TBD Dallas,TX Dave Bowman/Brett Amundsen 100 100
November 2010 Mechanicon 5th-7th Philadelphia,PA Tony Spino 70 70
November 2010 The Battle for Supremacy 6th Murfreesboro,TN Mathew Haffner 120 120
November 2010 The Alamo GT 6th-7th San Antonio,TX Johnathon Bailey 74 74
November 2010 ConQuest 6th-7th Orange County,CA Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
November 2010 North Star Tournament 6th-7th Minneapolis, MN John Stentz 70 70
November 2010 Turkey Shoot 20th-21st Media,PA Mike Clark 120 120
November 2010 ConQuest Mondo Mayhem 27th-28th Sacramento,CA Gabriel Vega 80 30 50

January 2011 Conquest Slaughter TBD Seattle,WA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
January 2011 The Conflict GT TBD Nanuet,NY Aaron Fishkow 110 70 40
January 2011 Sooiepalooza TBD Fayetteville,AR Dennis Collier 100 60 40
January 2011 Ironman XVI TBD Las Vegas,NV Vern Harlow 80 30 50
February 2011 Gottacon 4th-6th Victoria,BC Michael Lum 80 40 40
February 2011 Broadside Bash TBD Los Angeles,CA John Macomber 150 50 50 50
February 2011 A Gathering in the Desert 19th-20th Phoenix,AZ Tim Kulinski 35 35
February 2011 A Gathering in the Desert 26th-27th Phoenix,AZ Tim Kulinski 50 50
February 2011 St Valentines Day Massacre 27th-28th Media,PA Mike Clark 100 100
February 2011 Genghis Con TBD Denver,CO Elliot Vigil 50 50
February 2011 ConQuest TBD TBD Calgary,AB Teri Litorco 80 40 40
March 2011 The Lonewolf 25th-27th Dallas,TX Dave Bowman/Brett Amundsen 100 100
March 2011 The Warmasters Fantasy Challenge TBD Kitchener-Waterloo,ON Nate Stevens 148 148
March 2011 Adepticon TBD Chicago,IL Hank Edley/Jeff Chua/Matt Weeks 1200 375 775 50
March 2011 Warhammer Canadian Spectacular TBD Calgary,AB Jonathon Gartshore Baxter 128 64 64
March 2011 ConQuest Armageddon TBD Las Vegas,NV Gabriel Vega 120 30 70 20
April 2011 ConQuest Ragnorak TBD San Fran,CA Gabriel Vega 170 50 100 20
April 2011 Slaughter in Space TBD Los Angeles,CA Mike Garner 150 50 100
April 2011 The Colonial GT TBD Atlantic City,NJ Matthew York 100 100
May 2011 Astronomi-con Toronto TBD Toronto,ON Mike Major/Christian Augst 50 50
May 2011 Capital City Carnage TBD Austin,TX Lex Simon 82 82
May 2011 The Alamo 40K GT TBD San Antonio,TX Johnathon Bailey 100 100
May 2011 ConQuest Cataclysm TBD Denver,CO Gabriel Vega 80 30 50
May 2011 ConQuest Onslaught TBD Edmonton,AB Gabriel Vega 80 30 50

That's actually quite useful, thanks. I have a trip to the US planned and was wondering if there was anything going. Going to Georgia April/May/June, looks like it would require a trip to Texas (not a bad excuse to go).

While I am posting i'll put in my 2 cents. Personally most of the tourneys I have gone to are in Europe. Dutch Gt, for example, had sports, painting, quiz (quite neat really, remember if you get stuck, Heresy is probably an answer) and battle scores. My painting is table top std (getting judged and learning where to improve was quite neat, there was satisfaction from going to the next tourney after improving on identified weaknesses) and fluff knowledge low. I do however, pride myself in taking the best army I possibly can and pitching that against other tough lists to test myself. IMHO, that is what a tournament is about.

The point?

I'm a competitive player who would go to any tournament soft scores or not, however if it has big soft scores then the position I am actually going for is "Best General" rather than the overall placing.

Relevant to the US v UK phelic debate? No. But I feel it may lighten up the thread.
The swiss system for pairings means that by game 3 if you are 2/2, you will generally have a challenging game. It is a subjective discussion anyway and player skill (which I think is the whole point in this thread, who is better...?) will vary from tourney to tourney.

Danny Internets wrote:Just as there are many 40k players completely turned off by 'Ard Boyz because of its lack of painting scoring or even a painting requirement, there are lots of 40k players completely turned off by hobby events that push competitive play out of the spotlight.

I would contend, from reading these boards and meeting many players from all over the world, that the first sort of 'hobby' players out number the second sort fifty, nay a hundred to one. This is the reason the game isn't designed for tournaments, this is the reason we have scores in other areas of the hobby, and this is the reason many people dislike the ides of Ard Boyz. It's also the reason for the massive amount of nerdrage in these forums from a small but vocal minority, which only ends up in the insulting phrase 'soft-scores' being thrown around, and a warped definition of the word 'competitive'.

In response to the OP, if you are using this warped definition of 'competitive' to mean 'people who only care about WINNING', then yes, the UK GTs would seem to be organised in a more competitive way. However, I would suggest that since the UK events only judge your game playing skills, and the US ones judge your game playing, painting, modelling, theming and converting skills, the US tournaments actually feature more events to compete in, and are thus more competitive.

Of course, none of this takes into accounts the playstyles of the individual players. From anecdotal evidence on these forums, it would seem that the US tournaments tend to feature more players that take the game-playing aspect very very seriously indeed, whereas the european events tend to be more laid back and treat the game as, you know, a game. If THIS is what you mean by 'competitive' then the US scene would seem to be the more competitive.


edit for spelling

Having a beer or 2 with your GT opponent in Bugman's after the game is pretty cool...

Another point - if you are really a competitive person, and you see that the tournaments include soft-scores, you go out and learn to paint better, you learn to make comp-friendly lists where appropriate, and you learn not to be a jerk while playing a game of toy soldiers.

Rather than piss and moan about how these events have soft-scores, you learn to compete in the world that has soft-scores. That's what being a competitor is about.

Redbeard wrote:
Another point - if you are really a competitive person, and you see that the tournaments include soft-scores, you go out and learn to paint better, you learn to make comp-friendly lists where appropriate, and you learn not to be a jerk while playing a game of toy soldiers.

Rather than piss and moan about how these events have soft-scores, you learn to compete in the world that has soft-scores. That's what being a competitor is about.

While I do appreciate your attempt to call out people on their competitiveness to make your point, sitting down and taking it is not the only solution.

I really believe that the amount of people sounding out against this means there is a legitimate belief amongst the gaming community that this is a real issue, and should not be dismissed by taking a moral low ground and accusing those questioning the current practice of being lesser than they are.

Persons sounding on this board, which not reality make. But again, thats a different thread.

...nor will denying that the dissent exists make it go away, Frazzled.

Redbeard wrote: you learn to make comp-friendly lists where appropriate

If you know how it's being judged...

, and you learn not to be a jerk

Not being a jerk doesn't work.

Yea, not being a jerk, never worked for me...


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Fearspect wrote:...nor will denying that the dissent exists make it go away, Frazzled.

Not trying to. I am just acknowledging its proper importance or lack therein.
On the positive I bet you think I like comp. You'd be surprised...