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Skinnattittar wrote:Well, then there is also the issue that Eldar have many lists that are competently both Rock and Scissors. So while part of their list might get eaten by Paper, the majority of their list will mangle Paper.

The convincing fact for me is that Eldar do consistently well in games. True, they don't always "win" but I don't often see them lose, regardless of their opponent and owning player. I have seen one of our fresher players with an Eldar list he had never used before go against an extremely competent Ork player (in fact one of our better players) with a strong Ork list. Long story short, the green player had little difficulty neutering the Ork player's army, and even though they weren't crushing, in the last turn he rushed the objectives with Troops and took the game hands down.

Almost all units are either rock, paper or scissors (in the sense that they will do well against some things, and poorly against others). A balanced list is one which contains all 3, and the tactics come out of trying to position your rock units off against your opponents scissors and so on. Eldar take this to extremes, but it's true of all armies (f.ex, a SM Tactical Squad is okay at shooting and poor at assaults, whereas Fire Dragons are fantastic at shooting and terrible in assault).

Your above example is what I would describe as a balanced army. Eldar are certainly prime fodder for cheese lists because of the extremities their units go to, but it sounds like the green Eldar just outplayed the Ork vet. Taking objectives with troops is hardly cheesy!

The fact that someone with little to no experience in 40k can come in on one of his first few games and tromp a seasoned veteran with a very competent list so easily.... well that suggests something is wrong. It is not as if the Ork codex is weak or difficult.

Skinnattittar wrote:The fact that someone with little to no experience in 40k can come in on one of his first few games and tromp a seasoned veteran with a very competent list so easily.... well that suggests something is wrong. It is not as if the Ork codex is weak or difficult.

Someone wins one game with them and they're overpowered? I've won games easily and lost terribly with the same list; dice rolls are kind of a large factor.

Sir Wat wrote:

Skinnattittar wrote:The fact that someone with little to no experience in 40k can come in on one of his first few games and tromp a seasoned veteran with a very competent list so easily.... well that suggests something is wrong. It is not as if the Ork Codex is weak or difficult.

Someone wins one game with them and they're overpowered? I've won games easily and lost terribly with the same list; dice rolls are kind of a large factor.

No, that was an example. I have played IG for over a decade and have won games with every one of the past four Codices, that does not mean the 3rd Edition Codex was gold, or the 4th, or even the current one. I have consistently seen Eldar players take relatively easy wins against typically "superior" opponents. The Eldar Codex is neither new nor unfamiliar (as compared to Tyranids, Guard, or Dark Eldar), but there are still very few, and only very specific, ways of defeating Eldar. This suggests a very forgiving Eldar Codex that is tactically simple or very easy to use. So in the hands of two equal opponents, one with an Eldar Codex and the other with any other Codex, the Eldar player has a much greater likelyhood of winning or at least controlling the outcome of the game.

Wierd...from my experiences with dealing with, playing, reading up upon, has said the complete opposite of your whole post Skinnattittar.

From my experience, it's said that Eldar are hard to use/master and that they are fragile to balance their extreme niche units.

Just wierd to hear the opposite.

Sanctjud wrote:Wierd...from my experiences with dealing with, playing, reading up upon, has said the complete opposite of your whole post Skinnattittar.

From my experience, it's said that Eldar are hard to use/master and that they are fragile to balance their extreme niche units.

Just wierd to hear the opposite.

The two major pointers for Eldar: Avoid the glass units and keep things varied. There are literally dozens of very simple and very effective lists out there. You don't need to pour over a codex for days play testing dozens of different lists when you can very easily just jump on an online forum and ask "what's a decent Eldar list?" and get dozens of easy to build, cheap to make, and highly competitive lists. Utilizing them has not appeared to be very difficult in my experience. Eldar are difficult to master like Guard are difficult, except when you get it right, you're actually extremely competitive as opposed to only just competitive.

So while making an Eldar list might be difficult from scratch with no assistance, it only takes a click of the mouse to find what you need. Consider an IG Codex. That are many units in there that seem enticing, but simply jumping onto Dakka Dakka here and asking "what SHOULDN'T I take" will very quickly let you know what units to avoid (such as Ogryns, Deathstrike Missiles, Primaris Psyker, etc...). You don't need to spend years learning the army and playing a variety of lists to figure out how to use them to a degree of competency.

Again, i'll say that eldar are mostly T3 and very Expensive, which islready a bad start and that Eldar are one of the hardest things to learn to play with, and i know people who have been playing them for years and haven't mastered them.
but again, im pretty rubbish , having just started up, only 3 years experience :(

erik

I would say that for learnability they are pretty much moderate in difficulty. Certainly less hard to play well than Space Marines, but not as point and click as certain deathstar armies. I would say that Mech Eldar are pretty forgiving, until you meet a list that is all about lots of high strength shooting, like Razorback spam or shooty orks. But thats just the Rock to its paper.

As for the possibility of overpoweredness, nothing is overpowered, it is simply underpriced.

Skinnattittar wrote:Well, then there is also the issue that Eldar have many lists that are competently both Rock and Scissors. So while part of their list might get eaten by Paper, the majority of their list will mangle Paper.

The convincing fact for me is that Eldar do consistently well in games. True, they don't always "win" but I don't often see them lose, regardless of their opponent and owning player. I have seen one of our fresher players with an Eldar list he had never used before go against an extremely competent Ork player (in fact one of our better players) with a strong Ork list. Long story short, the green player had little difficulty neutering the Ork player's army, and even though they weren't crushing, in the last turn he rushed the objectives with Troops and took the game hands down.

As a dedicated Eldar player going to have to throw the BS flag on this one. Eldar are specialists, if a new player beat them there is plenty of things you can state that occured, but if they go against a competent player that knows Eldar tricks the Eldar player gets kicked in the balls. Wraithguard/Wraithlord? Toss a powerfist at them. Jetbikes? Toss anything that has a bypass armor into CC with them. Serpent/Falcon/Prism? Fire a few Str 8 missles or get a melta in on them... and yes meltas even with their D6 loss still cripple Serpents. Seer Council? Toss anything with a low armor save into CC with them or swarm fire them.

The problem with most people facing eldar is they try to use the same approach they do with other armies, but vs Eldar you have to stay one step ahead of them with placement etc.

goggari wrote:im having little arguiment about who are OP and why. So hes saying that eldar wraithlords and phoenix lords are OP. What do you think?
U can also say what stats would be good for them.

Both are not overpowered.

PL's are overpriced for what they can achieve at the battle field.

BlueDagger wrote:...you have to stay one step ahead of them with placement etc.

So pretty much you're implying I have to be more skilled (to the point that my opponent can't get ahead of me) than my opponent and have a list catered to defeating the Eldar list, for Eldar not to be OP/UP? Yes, I can exactly how it would seem Eldar are perfectly reasonable..... You just need every advantage and you'll be able to level the playing field!

I don't know...even if fast, they are still squishy.
Their durability relies heavily on 1-3 fortunes and Armor Saturation (when not running a sort of Iyanden theme).

Fortunes can be overloaded, fail, limited.
Armor is Armor.

There is nothing mysterious about beating them... you just have to get in their face early and stop them from setting up later game traps.

Maybe it's because they play a bit differently than all the Marine Armies of 40K that make them look so different that they look overpowered when they are used properly with dice rolling hot when they need to be.

I've only been playing Eldar now for about 12 years... so don't take my word for granted, but I think that Eldar is one of the hardest armies to master. They lack armour and they lack Toughness, combined with their high point cost that maks it easy to make mistakes and when you do it will cost you.

Yes Mech Eldar is forgiving, until the key tank carying the CC unit you really needed get's immobilised before it could even move...

No, they are not OP, they are very well ballanced with most units having their specific roles on the battlefield.
...And they pay for it.

SlimPickens wrote: I am rock.

Scissors is working as intended.

Please nerf paper.

What happens if you play with a rusty scissor and paper beats you?

Probably not a scissor then, just a rock in disguise. Paper is pretty good at discovering rocks though

Sanctjud wrote:'Overpowered' is spelt wrong, so is 'Eldar'...that's 2/3 words in the title, dude.
The topic itself isn't that useful as well.

Nothing is overpowered and nothing is cheese. "'Overpowered'/'Cheese' is the cry of the unprepared."

Maybe they got outplayed? Maybe the dice sucked or were really hot? Maybe the player screwed up so bad it was hard for the Eldar player to not smack the opponent around? Etc.

How about you try spell that title in Finnish?

Well, clearly, pheonix lords are powerful. They also average out at 200 points, and (except for asurmen) lack an invulnerable save. So no, they are not overpowered.

as for the wraithlord, if you think it is overpowered, talk to my brother's lascannons.

@Heners91:
You quoted my whole post just to make a comment about my correcting the poster of a poorly spelt title for this topic? It might be funny to you, but I think it's basic etiquette to get...hell even 50% of a title spelt correctly...

@Phonix Lords discussion:
They are sad pandas really...expensive and without force multipliers that get past their own aspect squad they are joined to.

Remember, these are named Characters in a codex in those early days of 5th ed...it contains rules that don't exist anymore even...not as much as Tau though

@Sanctjud

I don't find it funny, I just think you're being rude by vocally proclaiming an expectation of decent spelling from someone who clearly doesn't speak English as their first language

I can hardly speak a word of any other language... so I congratulate anyone who can even manage what this guy has.

Get some water guys! We need to stop the flames before a FLAME WAR starts!

Anyways, IMO, I think that eldar are as good as the player.

goggari wrote:So hes saying that eldar wraithlords and phoenix lords are OP. What do you think?

I think he hasn't played against Eldar since they got their new Codex.

@Henners91:

Sanctjud wrote:'Overpowered' is spelt wrong, so is 'Eldar'...that's 2/3 words in the title, dude.

It was a simple objective comment...if he wants to participate here, then it's up to him what he will absorb or not absorb...I made no personal attacks.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/218249.page

You are directing me to Rule number 1. You think I'm being rude, fine, it is a subjective thing.
But at the same time I'm directing the Poster to Rule number 5, I'm just being objective.
From Rule Number 1, I could also say that the OP is being rude too ...but I didn't.

@JSK-Fox:
Flame Wars are much worse and this is not the start of a flame war as hopefully this will be the last post about that subject.

@OP
No, no they are not, as JohnHwangDD puts it very well, the codex/army is only as good as the player.