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One thing must be done!

Shooting... it should be like 40k.
Not just the first rank.

Or at least have 2 modes of shooting.
The long range which the trajectory arches over units ( doesnt have to be first rank )

Or the straight type more accurate but cannot shoot in 2nd rank.

I dont know how i feel about the multiple save thing. In one hand the 1+ Armor save, 3+ ward save, regenerating unit is a pita to kill.

Possibly removing ward saves and regen saves stacking could fix a lot of it. I see no problem with ward saves and armor saves working together. Even from a fluff point of view. Ward save the cannon ball, etc smashes into the magical barrier protecting you, and you arent phased, if that fails then your armor has a chance to work.

Possibly making it so regeneration fails against attacks of a certain strength, (say 5 or higher) would help a lot. I dont care how well you regenerate, if you get shot in the face with a cannonball your dead, you wont grow back a new head.

OR change the regeneration mechanic entirely.

At the beginning of each of your turns roll a D6, on a 5+ you regenerate a wound. You can only roll one dice per turn, regardless of how many wounds you have lost. (pretty huge nerf to regen, but much more balanced).

Calvary impact hits would be interesting, Possibly 1 impact hit at the mounts STR on the charge.

I personally think magic is fine, I play a heavy magic army and a mistcast is already very devastating. I miscast on one of my games this weekend and it cost me the game. Making it even more of a risk to throw power dice would probably make me not even take it. I also normally will miscast every, single, game.....

PLEASE PLEASE for the love of god dont dumb down fantasy..... I like the complexity, and after 3 games i have the charts memorized again.... its not hard at all. It adds depth to the game.

Or at least have 2 modes of shooting.
The long range which the trajectory arches over units ( doesnt have to be first rank )

This could turn into an interesting new rule. You may shoot in 2 ranks, however you cannot have moved. This signifies the front rank getting down on one knee so the other rank can shoot over them.

@Shivan: Regen can be FNP/Bionics, and Ward like Inv saves.

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Shivan: Regen can be FNP/Bionics, and Ward like Inv saves.

Going to have to explain, i dont play 40k

No.Have ward saves be the same well your armour gets wasted your magic shield go into effect not you take a wound.Do not make it like 40k it is to simple.All it is take some dice. Roll some dice. Someone win.Or tie because missions in that game are crap.

Actually I collect Wood Elves, so I'm not biased.

The things that make fantasy feel like fantasy is the magic phase which is good but not overly complex; and the way units move, with marching, reforms and blocks and things like that. Look at Chess, very simple rules, but always compelling to play. Fantasy can lose some of the complexity and remain exciting.

Wheeling is really hard to measure, I'd rather that you could just rotate on the spot for a certain percentage of your move. E.g. to up 90 degrees, 1/4 of movement, up to 180, half, up to 360, 3/4.

lunarman wrote:Actually I collect Wood Elves, so I'm not biased.

The things that make fantasy feel like fantasy is the magic phase which is good but not overly complex; and the way units move, with marching, reforms and blocks and things like that. Look at Chess, very simple rules, but always compelling to play. Fantasy can lose some of the complexity and remain exciting.

Wheeling is really hard to measure, I'd rather that you could just rotate on the spot for a certain percentage of your move. E.g. to up 90 degrees, 1/4 of movement, up to 180, half, up to 360, 3/4.

I dont want my fast calvary to lose 4-5 of its 18 inch move just because it had to wheel 1 inch, because someone thought measuring out wheeling was to difficult.

I would argue that fantasy's rules are not that difficult to learn, but very difficult to master...Similar to your chess analogy. Chess can be played just by knowing how the figures move, but in order to be good, it requires a massive amount of complexity. I really hope GW doesnt make the same mistake of so many other games I have played. Which is dumbing down the rules and complexity to make it more appealing, while angering their already loyal playerbase.

I would like to see fantasy feel more like a genuine medieval battle. Now, I am biased (see right ) I admit and I am aware that people will start to throw the usual orcs/dragons/magic etc comments at me as to why this is a fantasy game and not 'realistic'.

BUT - the basics of the game involve units of infantry and cavalry whacking each other with *insert weapon of choice* while missile troops/arty etc provide support and this is the bit I would like them to get right. All the crazy monsters and magic should be there to give the game character and provide interesting tactical choices but they should not be game-breaking in the way they are now.

A few minor changes would go a long way:
Crossbows/guns etc can shoot in two ranks (the second rank shoots between every 2 men in the first).
Bows can shoot accurately in two ranks or volley the whole unit (more shots but less accurate).

Spear/pike-armed infantry should always go first when receiving a charge (unless the chargers are also spear-armed infantry).

Units should be able to back away from an enemy they are in combat with, forcing that enemy to choose to remain in base contact but risk having their flanks exposed as they are drawn out of the line or letting them withdraw and possibly exposing themselves to missile fire or fresh chargers - similarly, units which beat a unit in combat should be able to force them backwards (perhaps d6", if the number exceeds their movement rate the losers recieve additional hits to represent the disorder of being pushed back by victorious opponents).

Extra ranks should provide benefits when charging or pushing back. Extra files should give benefits in static combats (as the men at the corners of a shorter line are extremely vulnerable). Perhaps when fighting a wider unit, you should take a Ld check, failure would force you to widen your frontage to match your opponent?

Just a few random thoughts. In any event, I look forward to having a good long read through the new book and see if it has improved any. My dwarfs may yet come out to play again if I like it enough...

ShivanAngel wrote:

JohnHwangDD wrote:@Shivan: Regen can be FNP/Bionics, and Ward like Inv saves.

Going to have to explain, i dont play 40k

FNP is a 4+ chance to not lose a wound, after a failed save. It is not allowed when saves are completely denied, or if S >= 2x T.

Bionics is like FNP, but a straight 6+ to not lose a wound.

Inv saves may always be taken, but the model may only take Inv or Armor, not both.
____

Hjoey75 wrote:Do not make it like 40k it is to simple.All it is take some dice. Roll some dice. Someone win.Or tie because missions in that game are crap.

If you don't like 40k, that's fine. But to say it's too simple, when you cannot even spell or communicate in proper English, that's nonsense.

In any case, 40k missions are far better than endlessly replaying the same pitched battle in Fantasy, with the same VP scoring.

I also saw something about using 1d6+4 pieces of terrain for every battle and people were annoyed by this...

Where i play 6-7 pieces of terrain is the norm, we really like setting up elaborate battlefields. We normally have a hill on each side, and maybe one in the middle-ish, 2-3 forests, and 2 buildings. Maybe some ancient ruins or something else wierd. Of course we dont set up the battlefield for our own fights. A person that isnt playing in the match just grabs an armful of stuff, and sets up a fairly even field. Makes it more fair imho.

Im guessing some people just play with the absolute minimum?