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BlueDagger wrote:So your stating that a Valkyrie can not have it's wings or haul over any models? GL maneuvering that thing.

As per the rules as they currently stand, that's correct. Page 71: 'Moving Skimmers' ... first sentence.

I think you'll find that most players will disregard the wings and tail for this in actual practice, though.

insaniak wrote:I think you'll find that most players will disregard the wings and tail for this in actual practice, though.

That's not acceptable... You don't have a situational hull to work with. Wings and tail are part of footprint.

Old Man Ultramarine wrote:That's not acceptable... You don't have a situational hull to work with. Wings and tail are part of footprint.

That's your choice. I was specifically referring to how people play it... meaning house rules. So it's up to you as to whether or not to play that way yourself.

It's ok, even making the haul argument if a unit disembarks from the valkerie right at the base it will still be under the haul of the vehicle with is RAW illegal since they are "occupying the same space". Now with that being said, this is why any Judge that rules that space occupation is from the hull to the base of a model is out of their mind. It means that any skimmer that is at least 1.5 inches from the ground could literally set their haul on enemy models if there is room for their base since most models are over 1" tall.

Use common sense folks and play it 1" from the model as a whole.

As for the original poll, large and small flight posts have their advantages and disadvanges. Play true LoS with whatever base they have and everything balances out. That also means if you play someone without a flight base don't let them pull that "well it should technically be up here" crap.

BlueDagger wrote:It's ok, even making the haul argument if a unit disembarks from the valkerie right at the base it will still be under the haul of the vehicle with is RAW illegal since they are "occupying the same space".

No they're not. If they were occupying the same space, they would be occupying the same space. Being underneath something is not occupying the same space... it's occupying space underneath.

There is nothing in the rules that prevents a model moving underneath a skimmer, so long as it has sufficient clearance. The rules simply prevent skimmers from ending their movement on top of other models.

(And it's 'hull' by the way... )

Now with that being said, this is why any Judge that rules that space occupation is from the hull to the base of a model is out of their mind.

I think you've missed what the thread was talking about, because nobody has suggested that this is the case.

There is no 'space ocupation' in 5th edition 40K.

We were talking about measurement. Which is from the model's base (if it has one) or the hull/body (if it doesn't).


So in the case of measuring from a skimmer to an infantry model, you measure from the skimmer's hull to the infantry model's base. Not because of 'space occupation', but simply because that's how you measure distances in 40K.

Please read the rule. You are not understanding what can be done.

The vehicle can't land on top of friendly or enemy models during it's move. Once it's move is completed, other models may move under it, providing they can physically fit. This includes a Valkyrie's disembarked troops.

Pardon the terrible quick drawing and the misspell of hull. It's late here

So above you have a picture of three, separate situations (not really to scale ).

A is a Valkyrie that has moved 12" and the unit has disembarked, the unit is now under the haul. RAW this is illegal if being above the model is considered sharing the same space, not logical as it wouldn't allow for disembarking.

B is a Wave Serpent on a tall flight stand that is moving over enemy models, there is enough room for the enemy model's base to be at least 1" away from the hull. RAW this is illegal if occupying the same space is from top down similar to the Valkyrie (once again not logical if the Valk may do it).

C B is a Wave Serpent on a tall flight stand that is moving over enemy models, there is enough room for the enemy model's base to be at least 1" away from the hull even though your literally sitting on top of the model it's self. RAW this is illegal if occupying the same space is from top down similar to the Valkyrie (once again not logical if the Valk may do it).


RAW A is illegal, but this is illogical because it would prevent disembarking.
RAW via page 3 you measure from the hull to the base of models for distance, making an illogical situation of C being legal.
So to the original poll there is no difference between a tall or short stand from a contesting and space occupation point of view.

BlueDagger wrote:RAW this is illegal if being above the model is considered sharing the same space,

...which it's not.


Nowhere do the rules state that being above something is sharing the same space as it. Which is good, because otherwise moving on different floors in ruins would be problematic.

C B is a Wave Serpent on a tall flight stand that is moving over enemy models, there is enough room for the enemy model's base to be at least 1" away from the hull even though your literally sitting on top of the model it's self.

If it's just scraping the top of the enemy model, there is nothing to suggest this shouldn't be allowed... although it is reliant on the enemy model being more than an inch tall.

If (as is happening in your picture) the enemy model would be partially physically inside the bottom of the skimmer, than that's illegal, due to the rule preventing models from occupying the same space.

K so I stand corrected. If you are playing that the 1" rule is from a model's base then in C you can gain 2" of ground by sliding the enemy model between the arcs of a wave serpent and 2.5" in B.

The sensible thing is to measure 1" from the enemy model as a whole whichneither tall or short bases gain the advantage.

BlueDagger wrote:The sensible thing is to measure 1" from the enemy model as a whole whichneither tall or short bases gain the advantage.

At which point it suddenly matters whether the model is kneeling, or standing up, or standing on a rock, or has an arm in the air...

insaniak wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:The sensible thing is to measure 1" from the enemy model as a whole whichneither tall or short bases gain the advantage.

At which point it suddenly matters whether the model is kneeling, or standing up, or standing on a rock, or has an arm in the air...

As it does for assaulting a skimmer, LoS for shooting through unit coherency, True LoS for seeing enemy models etc etc etc.

BlueDagger wrote:As it does for assaulting a skimmer, LoS for shooting through unit coherency, True LoS for seeing enemy models etc etc etc.

Assaulting a skimmer doesn't rely on the model's pose.

LOS does, which is all part of the cinematic 'the action is what you can actually see' style of 40K. But measurement only involves the actual model, rather than its base, when measuring between floors in ruins.

insaniak wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:As it does for assaulting a skimmer, LoS for shooting through unit coherency, True LoS for seeing enemy models etc etc etc.

Assaulting a skimmer doesn't rely on the model's pose.

LOS does, which is all part of the cinematic 'the action is what you can actually see' style of 40K. But measurement only involves the actual model, rather than its base, when measuring between floors in ruins.

To assault a skimmer you must either make contact with it's base or with it's hull. If the skimmer is a bit in the air then Mr. Powerfist having his arm stretched out will tag it a bit easier.

BlueDagger wrote:To assault a skimmer you must either make contact with it's base or with it's hull. If the skimmer is a bit in the air then Mr. Powerfist having his arm stretched out will tag it a bit easier.

Which is the normal way it is played (as the actual rules don't work with skimmers) but it's not actually how the rules work. The models have to get their base into contact with the skimmer's hull to attack it.

So in practice, attacking skimmers in close combat actually generally requires a house rule in order to work.

Quite amazing how even the voting is.

Actually its not all that close when you compare the options that are given. 38 people voted that they would allow it, 31 people voted they would disallow, and 37 would call asshattery. While this does look close, its actually 68 people that have a problem with it as 31 people disallow it and another 37 have an extreme problem with it.

Also, the other problem with the poll is IIRC, voters had the option of voting for multiple options (I could be wrong there, sorry if I am).

Edit: What the poll poster should have done was to set options for the casting of voting only once, having the options to vote for "allow," "disallow," and maybe "other" and having the voters explain the "other" vote.

Unfortunately, given how Dakka's multiple choice polls are set up, there's no way to find how many people chose multiple options, and that really limits the strength of conclusions that can be drawn from the poll results.

In any event, this still comes down to a dogmatic split between the flat-world players and the 3D-game-environment players as far as I can tell. Really, the arguments conflating area and volume, and the posts pointing out the difference, are about as entertaining as the 'Is it a Daemon or not?' threads on Warseer.

But if you really want a hat trick, take a Nurgling base and during the assault move have it run underneath an unbased Defiler or Soulgrinder. Or better yet, position some Nurgling bases underneath a friendly unbased Soulgrinder.

To clarify the rule situation...


The physical form of one model, cannot occupy the physical space of another model.

A Skimmer may not end its move above another unit. This has nothing to do with 'sharing space', this is just a specific rule that applies to skimmers.

Models can end their move beneath a skimmer, assuming:
There is room under the skimmer for the model to physically fit, and
If the skimmer is enemy, it is at least 1" from the base.

I want a valkyrie so bad but all these rules shenanigans that I have a chance of getting into with a TFG is throwing me off of the coolness...

Dashofpepper wrote:Even though skimmers are supposed to land every movement phase and be on the ground.....right? They pick up and move, then land again?

They are? Can you quote a page number for this statement?

s2ua7 wrote:Also, the other problem with the poll is IIRC, voters had the option of voting for multiple options (I could be wrong there, sorry if I am).

Yep, it's allowing multiple selections.

Ok, I'm the suck for hitting multiple option voting. Now has been edited.

Again, I don't actually do this. It's merely a poll and opinion of what if.