Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you: No adverts like this in the forums anymore. Times and dates in your local timezone. Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance. Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely. Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net. If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

Ok, this past weekend I was thwarted in game by a poor ruling and lack of opponent cooperation.

How would many of you feel if Eldar players or any player that had skimmers in army, used the clear flying bases, but used a stick that was 3-4" long. Skimmer would then be 3-4" in air.

How would disembarking work? There is presidence with the Valkyrie FAQ with the use of base instead of exit points to disembark. Would it carry to other skimmers?

Thoughts, opinions and votes, please.

Could you clarify how you were thwarted?

Unless they have <1" tall models, I don't see them having any problems anyway. Good luck getting those units cover.

Firstly, using something other than the base it comes with (and yes, before certain posters arrive the clear plastic stem IS part of the flying base...) requires your consent - so if you dont consent to them using it, you should instead impose a compromise, ie play as if they were on the tallest of the supplied stems.

Other than that, if you are happy with them playing as-is, then they cannot disembark without a further houserule.

Mostly, if it wasnt obvious modelling for advantage, I let it go - rule of cool and all that.

tip for the future - dont make your poll multiple choice unles syou WANT it to be multiple choice

I agree entirely with what Nos said. It may be modelling for advantage but not convinced it is anything but a disadvantage. I model my Tau skimmers on the 1.5" stems, but as those stems come with the vehicle I can't see anyone having a problem, it allows me to FoF (which I don't do anyway) but means everything can see my Hammerheads :( I just use them because they actually look like they're flying on the taller base with the landing gear and the shortest base they may as well be on the floor...

3-4" does sound a fair bit though and could be modelling for advantage but with Eldar I wouldn't really see it as an advantage as avoiding LoS is normally the cornerstone to an Eldar victory...

if they want to use a nonstandard base (and that includes the stem), they have to get permission from the opponent if it's significantly different in size/dimensions. i've got a master of the ravenwing that i'll be mounting on a scenic base but i'm careful not to put him more than 1/2" higher than he would be on the standard base to avoid any possibly problems. i would ask the eldar player to play them for any shooting or in game purposes at their intended height and not what they converted them to be.

I wouldn't be as worried about the disembarking as with the ability to see over more cover and have better los for shooting. But yeah, I guess my response would depend on wheather their moddeled for cool or specifically for the shooting advantage.

I presume where this is going is that the Eldar player deployed out the back, then shot underneath their skimmer? =p Even though skimmers are supposed to land every movement phase and be on the ground.....right? They pick up and move, then land again?

So why do we even have flying bases for them?

If he modeled them explicitly for the purpose of shooting under them when a normal skimmer base would make this impossible...then call BS on him it is modeling for advantage.

If they are done that way so he can angle the skimmer and make it look more dynamic by diving or banking, then cool. I am fine with shooting on both sides measuring to this slightly higher hull, but if he tries to shoot under them see the previous point.

Dashofpepper wrote:So why do we even have flying bases for them?

because we're ultimately playing with little toy soldiers and it's cool to see vehicles "flying" when the rules say they can. pew pew and swooosh noises are optional, though.

Plus WHEN they shoot they are, indeed flying - hence the flying stand.

warboss wrote:because we're ultimately playing with little toy soldiers and it's cool to see vehicles "flying" when the rules say they can. pew pew and swooosh noises are optional, though.

Not to mention the flying noises.....

dietrich wrote:

warboss wrote:because we're ultimately playing with little toy soldiers and it's cool to see vehicles "flying" when the rules say they can. pew pew and swooosh noises are optional, though.

Not to mention the flying noises.....

see my "swooosh" skimmer noise above. the pew pew is for shooting.

I personally have the highest flight stand and the lowest flight stand for my serpents. There are advantages to both, but definitely more advantages to the lower flight stand.

High Stand:
Pro - Allows clear LOS under the wave serpent for bladestorm or fire dragons.
Con - You can't get cover for hiding behind the tank. It's VERY difficult to get 50% obscured when maneuvering around the field.

Low Stand:
Pro- Much easier to get 50% obscured. Hide your squishes after disembark from certain directions.
Con- Creative positioning for disembark can open your rear armor up to fire.

As far as shooting under goes it is true LoS, yes they can fire under without cover saves given, but they don't get them in return either. The only time to call BS is if they try swapping stands mid game.

I was thwarted by this...

I attempted to star engine move my WS within 3 inches of primary objective (Adepticon mission 3) and was denied by wrong ruling. I was under assumption I had had to be 1" from body mass of figure. During a 45+ minute post game discussion and during the time I was I was in bathroom for less than 5 minutes the actual rule was looked up and quoted, and for reasons unknown not brought to my attention by the 11+ person peanut gallery, upon my return.

Further discussed here with link

http://www.dakkadakka.com/dakkaforum/posts/list/288888.page

I ultimately lost game and due to shoddy paint judging AND open "fan favorite army" voting I lost a weekend tourney. Now, before you deem me a whiny , a great many details have not been explained, so please don't judge and just leave it at that.

For the rest of you tacticians...

The grand mechdar trick is to last turn objective grab. Leaving many an opponent feeling like they were visited by a donkey in Tiajuana. By me having my bases high, 3" being optimal, I can fly over opponents figs and capture objectives. With use of terrain and obstruction the height can be overcome.

Strictly talking in tourney play only. Timed games lead to their own strategies and what happens when game is soon ending.

warboss wrote:

dietrich wrote:

warboss wrote:because we're ultimately playing with little toy soldiers and it's cool to see vehicles "flying" when the rules say they can. pew pew and swooosh noises are optional, though.

Not to mention the flying noises.....

see my "swooosh" skimmer noise above. the pew pew is for shooting.

I was thinking more of the "vaaaaaawoooom" fighter noise, but yeah, I guess skimmers go swoosh.

Yeah... no offense, but as an Eldar player if I saw someone trying to use a Wave Serpent to contest an enemy objecting by having their model "hover over" the enemy due to a large flight stand I'd call BS in a heartbeat. I've always played it 1" away from the physical model it's self not the base, otherwise skimmers would have an ridiculous advantage.

BlueDagger wrote:Yeah... no offense, but as an Eldar player if I saw someone trying to use a Wave Serpent to contest an enemy objecting by having their model "hover over" the enemy due to a large flight stand I'd call BS in a heartbeat. I've always played it 1" away from the physical model it's self not the base, otherwise skimmers would have an ridiculous advantage.

And that's exactly what the problem is in this situation. Both players AT THE START thought that you had to be 1" away from the physical model, which caused a non-possible move. When the infantry model being as big as it's base and all measurement are made to the base not the model came from the rulebook, it felt alien to say that a Tyranid Warrior is only 1/4" tall. The TO made a bad call, and combined two rules to a make a cylinder (area of base, plus head height of model = cylinder). This also made it a non possible move.

The contention comes down to now there is no way to figure out if we could have placed the skimmer, so that it would not be over another models base, which is another limiting factor due to the moving skimmers from pg 71.

BlueDagger wrote:Yeah... no offense, but as an Eldar player if I saw someone trying to use a Wave Serpent to contest an enemy objecting by having their model "hover over" the enemy due to a large flight stand I'd call BS in a heartbeat. I've always played it 1" away from the physical model it's self not the base, otherwise skimmers would have an ridiculous advantage.

I concur

Dashofpepper wrote:I presume where this is going is that the Eldar player deployed out the back, then shot underneath their skimmer? =p Even though skimmers are supposed to land every movement phase and be on the ground.....right? They pick up and move, then land again?

What?

The Rules, pg 71 wrote:Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above (referring to immobilized and wrecked), as normally skimmers cannot land under battlefield conditions.

Iron_Chaos_Brute wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:I presume where this is going is that the Eldar player deployed out the back, then shot underneath their skimmer? =p Even though skimmers are supposed to land every movement phase and be on the ground.....right? They pick up and move, then land again?

What?

The Rules, pg 71 wrote:Note that it is not permitted to remove the flying stand other than in the two cases above (referring to immobilized and wrecked), as normally skimmers cannot land under battlefield conditions.

Page 3:

Citadel miniatures are normally supplied with a plastic base. If so, they must be glued onto their bases before they can be used in the game.

If you can remove the base, you didn't glue it on correctly, thus breaking this rule.

BlueDagger wrote:Yeah... no offense, but as an Eldar player if I saw someone trying to use a Wave Serpent to contest an enemy objecting by having their model "hover over" the enemy due to a large flight stand I'd call BS in a heartbeat. I've always played it 1" away from the physical model it's self not the base, otherwise skimmers would have an ridiculous advantage.

You can hover, but you must look from above and not be over the footprint of base.

I also played it as 1" from physical model, but it has been revealed to be wrong. It's the base of model, period.

Wait, I'm confused. You were trying to exploit the 1" rule for enemy units by using non-standard posts? Why not just tank shock them off of the objective? No offense intended, but I do not think I would have allowed you to use the posts, as this seems like a textbook case of modeling for advantage.

thegreyman wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:Yeah... no offense, but as an Eldar player if I saw someone trying to use a Wave Serpent to contest an enemy objecting by having their model "hover over" the enemy due to a large flight stand I'd call BS in a heartbeat. I've always played it 1" away from the physical model it's self not the base, otherwise skimmers would have an ridiculous advantage.

And that's exactly what the problem is in this situation. Both players AT THE START thought that you had to be 1" away from the physical model, which caused a non-possible move. When the infantry model being as big as it's base and all measurement are made to the base not the model came from the rulebook, it felt alien to say that a Tyranid Warrior is only 1/4" tall. The TO made a bad call, and combined two rules to a make a cylinder (area of base, plus head height of model = cylinder). This also made it a non possible move.

The contention comes down to now there is no way to figure out if we could have placed the skimmer, so that it would not be over another models base, which is another limiting factor due to the moving skimmers from pg 71.

I say here. Rule on page 3 was quoted. Unfortunately, I wasn't not present (4 minute bathroom run). On top of it all, not a peep about it when I came back, except for cylinder theory. Incredible how it played out, that I wasn't informed of this finding until after the fact and results handed in.

There was never a dispute if I covered enemy figures, just the fact that I could not twist serpent to be outside 1" away from tyranid warrior tail stick out on outside and converted hive tyrant tail stick out on inside. My tank covered no enemy bases when viewed from above. The dispute is simply from distance between hull and physical figure on base.

For the record, Thegreyman and I were opponents in this match of tourney. TO offered up that since no reasonable resolution was possible at the time we should roll it off or do the 4+ roll. My opponent soundly refused, but that's debate for another day.

Also, for the record, I use 60mm bases with the shortest sticks, but in this event I used the big clear flying bases on WS's with the tallest stick. That said, my WS are 1 3/8" off table at shortest point. Used these for first time to test out. Not that a bases needs testing


Automatically Appended Next Post:

daedalus wrote:Wait, I'm confused. You were trying to exploit the 1" rule for enemy units by using non-standard posts? Why not just tank shock them off of the objective? No offense intended, but I do not think I would have allowed you to use the posts, as this seems like a textbook case of modeling for advantage.

I did not do what topic asks.

I'm simply asking the community opinion.

I'm going to ask at this point that posters stick to the topic, rather than bringing personal soap opera into it.

What happened in a game at some point in the past is irrelevant for the purposes of the thread, and has been discussed elsewhere. Please stick to the rules at hand.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
So far as the poll topic goes, I would allow it... as pointed out, it makes embarking and disembarking nearly impossible, and makes the skimmer an easier shooting target.

The Valkyrie rules only set a precedent for any model that comes with that same base, IMO. It doesn't cover conversions, which aren't actually dealt with by the rules at all, beyond saying that changing bases requires opponent's consent.

warboss wrote:

Dashofpepper wrote:So why do we even have flying bases for them?

because we're ultimately playing with little toy soldiers and it's cool to see vehicles "flying" when the rules say they can. pew pew and swooosh noises are optional, though.

WIN.

There are some boxes of tanks that come with all 4 stands (happened on 2/3 of my Wave Serpents once in a single purchase). There is upsides and downsides to either tall or small stands so I'm not really seeing why the debate is occurring?

Any TO with half a brain should be calling BS on skimmer's height vs a model's base. If not that would mean I can fly my skimmers over top of enemy units then set it down on top of them as long as there is room for my base because essentially that would be the same thing as having models under a Valkyrie's wing. the precedence was set for fir the Valk via FAQ for capturing/contesting but not for models occupying the same space under the Valk it's self.

So in all honestly it simply comes down to the pros and cons of the tall/short flight base. I would think that any opponent would be happy to have tall flight bases since it makes cover next to impossible and you can shoot anything that gets out without the tank getting in the way or giving cover.

BlueDagger wrote:If not that would mean I can fly my skimmers over top of enemy units then set it down on top of them as long as there is room for my base because essentially that would be the same thing as having models under a Valkyrie's wing.

You can't finish a skimmer's move on top of other models. That's in the skimmer movement rules.

insaniak wrote:

BlueDagger wrote:If not that would mean I can fly my skimmers over top of enemy units then set it down on top of them as long as there is room for my base because essentially that would be the same thing as having models under a Valkyrie's wing.

You can't finish a skimmer's move on top of other models. That's in the skimmer movement rules.

So your stating that a Valkyrie can not have it's wings or haul over any models? GL maneuvering that thing.

You can not do this BlueDagger.

You can not go over and stop above unit. You must remain 1" away from enemy units with footprint of vehicle. By that I mean when you look from top view, you must not cover any part of their base with your vehicle footprint.