Where do the Tyranids fit into the power curve?

Forum adverts like this one are shown to any user who is not logged in. Join us by filling out a tiny 3 field form and you will get your own, free, dakka user account which gives a good range of benefits to you:

No adverts like this in the forums anymore.
Times and dates in your local timezone.
Full tracking of what you have read so you can skip to your first unread post, easily see what has changed since you last logged in, and easily see what is new at a glance.
Email notifications for threads you want to watch closely.
Being a part of the oldest wargaming community on the net.

If you are already a member then feel free to login now.

**ductvader**

I have a strong feeling that 6th edition rules are going to massively change the pecking order.

**Augustus**

Sure, but who knows.

**ductvader**

But as said before...bugs aren't forgiving...a solid player can massacre his enemy though.

**radiohazard**

Dark Eldar are easier to play than Nids.

On the scale of difficult armies to play:

1 - Necrons
2 - Tau
3 - Nids

**Vepr**

radiohazard wrote:Dark Eldar are easier to play than Nids.

On the scale of difficult armies to play:

1 - Necrons
2 - Tau
3 - Nids

I don't know that they are quite that bad but they are definitely lacking compared to the other 5th edition codices and even Orks and CSM are curb stomping nids around here. I do think that by the time they get a new dex in 6 years or so they are going to be in desperate shape. A lot of people seem to think the nids are balanced but if that codex is balanced give me codex creep any day.

**ductvader**

I don't think peple think they are bad codexes...I think they are rather good codexes in fact...they just need finesse.

**Kilkrazy**

The thing about the Nid dex is that like someone said above there isn't an obvious power build like there is with some other books.

In an ideal world that would mean that the book has a good variety of balanced and interesting builds. But in reality it probably means they are all a bit weak.

But you know, a Death Star of three Trygons backed by two Venomthropes, three Zoanthropes and a pile of Gants might be able to cruise the board mopping up all the opposition. It's just that no-one has found that build yet due to lack of models.

**MeanGreenStompa**

Despite what you said Kilkrazy about the anti-tank, Orks have fewer options for dealing with real armour and all of them are close combat.

**Grey Templar**

except orks don't really need to kill the LRs and the Monos will pop to phaseout.

**Augustus**

I think a large part of a codex strength is in it's troop choices, and generally I would put Ork Boys above any troops in the Tyranid dex, for overall effect, with a power claw Nob and a Rocket 20 of them have a fighting chance versus just about anything in the game.

Tyranids don't have a troop choice like that.

**ductvader**

Augustus wrote:I think a large part of a codex strength is in it's troop choices, and generally I would put Ork Boys above any troops in the Tyranid dex, for overall effect, with a power claw Nob and a Rocket 20 of them have a fighting chance versus just about anything in the game.

Tyranids don't have a troop choice like that.

Except for Warriors

**Luke_Prowler**

No one has a troop choice quite like Orks.

**radiohazard**

I think the Nid dex is actually well written.

It's one of my faves behind Space Wolves.

I just think that the army isn't all that powerful and that the other armies I listed are similar in power and about as easy to use.

There is a Necron player at my FLGS who has beaten some of the best Nid players in the store and he can't beat any of the other armies around ATM.

**Darkzephyr**

Vepr wrote:Hive Guard are good against transports but do struggle a bit vs AV13 plus. The Tyrannofex is just a bit too expensive for what it does. I think they thought that how effective nids are in assault that they needed to keep them somewhat limited vs vehicles. Unfortunately a lack of grenades has somewhat blunted nids effectiveness in assault making them depend on shooting that was made weaker or psychic powers that can be stopped or expensive units with expensive upgrades like warriors with lashs to deal with units in cover. I hope the pyrovore was not put in with the thought that it would help us with the lack of frag grenades lol. Our assault is also hurt by fearless and the way wounds spill over now. I like Raveners and warriors but their three wounds are often a detriment in combat because good rolls with a power fist or claw etc often mean combat resolution is brutal for nids. Also combined assaults with things like Trygons and fexs are bad news because an enemy often does not even have to land one attack on them to cause a lot of wounds as they spill over from the smaller nids. I still like nids but they do have some issues that are hard to overcome vs a good opponent wielding some of the better armies like IG and SW.

What exactly do you mean by wounds spilling over from a smaller nid to a trygon/tervigon? That doesn't sound right to me.

**Lukus83**

He is talking about multicharging gaunts and MC's. Hit the gaunts and the MC's take no retreat wounds.

**Vepr**

radiohazard wrote:I think the Nid dex is actually well written.

It's one of my faves behind Space Wolves.

I just think that the army isn't all that powerful and that the other armies I listed are similar in power and about as easy to use.

There is a Necron player at my FLGS who has beaten some of the best Nid players in the store and he can't beat any of the other armies around ATM.

To me though it is hard to call a new codex good if it cannot compete with the oldest and weakest codices out there right from the start. That does not bode well for codex as it ages. Personally I think the codex is alright for friendly games but it seems to be getting run off the table in competitive environments which is not a good sign for long term viability.

**Lukus83**

Hive guard, tyrannofexes and tervigon spam I think is one of our more competitive lists. I don't like it but it deals well with the current mech environment.

Also remember that we haven't seen the whole picture yet. Some new codices may well blow mech lists out of the water and force people to run mixed lists. That would bode well for nids.

**Kilkrazy**

Lukus83 wrote:He is talking about multicharging gaunts and MC's. Hit the gaunts and the MC's take no retreat wounds.

Is that right? The way I understand the rule, it is the Gaunt unit which suffers the Fearless wounds.

**Volkov**

Combat resolution effects all units equally

**Augustus**

Indeed and that's what the downfall of the Tervigon is (besides expense and lack of AT abilities).

In one game I played I was able to combo charge a unit of Shrikes, Gargoyles and a Tyranofex with a basic terminator unit and basic chaplain.

The power fist hits instant death killed almost the entire unit of shrikes, with instant death at 3 wounds each, for 6 models that was 18 hits, and the chaplain killed 3 gargoyles with his crozius, that was 21 to 2 dead terminators.

The remaining tyranid units were fearless, because some shrikes lived and each one took 19 saves and they all died right there. 30 gargoyles, 8 shrikes and a Tyrannofex.

Combo charge is the key to the Tyranid lock and makes the entire idea of a swarm build obsolete.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ductvader wrote:
Augustus wrote:I think a large part of a codex strength is in it's troop choices, and generally I would put Ork Boys above any troops in the Tyranid dex, for overall effect, with a power claw Nob and a Rocket 20 of them have a fighting chance versus just about anything in the game.

Tyranids don't have a troop choice like that.

Except for Warriors

Not really warriors dont have the same high S AT shot, they are also much more vulnerable to instant death and less numerous. The mob up rule is also better than the hive mind fearless and the power claw nob gets those S8 hits in there from behind the boys. All better qualities than warriors.

**ductvader**

Augustus wrote:Automatically Appended Next Post:

ductvader wrote:
Augustus wrote:I think a large part of a codex strength is in it's troop choices, and generally I would put Ork Boys above any troops in the Tyranid dex, for overall effect, with a power claw Nob and a Rocket 20 of them have a fighting chance versus just about anything in the game.

Tyranids don't have a troop choice like that.

Except for Warriors

Not really warriors dont have the same high S AT shot, they are also much more vulnerable to instant death and less numerous. The mob up rule is also better than the hive mind fearless and the power claw nob gets those S8 hits in there from behind the boys. All better qualities than warriors.

Oh no...I am not arguing that Warriors are better...because they're are not.

But rather I am saying that they are a very viable troops choice that has many niches in Nid lists...like boys for Orks.

**MagicJuggler**

Augustus wrote:Indeed and that's what the downfall of the Tervigon is (besides expense and lack of AT abilities).

In one game I played I was able to combo charge a unit of Shrikes, Gargoyles and a Tyranofex with a basic terminator unit and basic chaplain.

The power fist hits instant death killed almost the entire unit of shrikes, with instant death at 3 wounds each, for 6 models that was 18 hits, and the chaplain killed 3 gargoyles with his crozius, that was 21 to 2 dead terminators.

The remaining tyranid units were fearless, because some shrikes lived and each one took 19 saves and they all died right there. 30 gargoyles, 8 shrikes and a Tyrannofex.

Combo charge is the key to the Tyranid lock and makes the entire idea of a swarm build obsolete.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

ductvader wrote:
Augustus wrote:I think a large part of a codex strength is in it's troop choices, and generally I would put Ork Boys above any troops in the Tyranid dex, for overall effect, with a power claw Nob and a Rocket 20 of them have a fighting chance versus just about anything in the game.

Tyranids don't have a troop choice like that.

Except for Warriors

Not really warriors dont have the same high S AT shot, they are also much more vulnerable to instant death and less numerous. The mob up rule is also better than the hive mind fearless and the power claw nob gets those S8 hits in there from behind the boys. All better qualities than warriors.

Wait a second...so you're saying that you managed to combocharge two midfield units and a backfield unit at the same time? Did he not screen properly?

Hive Guard and Tyrannofexes work well enough. Tervigons of course are a great troop choice in their ability to support these two elements. And a Termagant unit given support will inflict a lot of pain on Ork boyz, much less other units.

**ductvader**

The only downfall of Tervigons is there not being a model for them!

**MagicJuggler**

Means just a lot of Greenstuff-fexes

Personally I don't like the idea that an army's competitiveness is dependent on it being idiot-proof. I find it insulting personally. Then again, it's because I started 40k with Dark Eldar. ("We're Elves on Drugs in Spaaace. And we don't understand what armor is").

Personally, the way I view competitiveness is "Can this army reliably deal with as many army types as possible?" With their surprising mobility (Onslaught *does* help), they can play like Tau with less AT in exchange for more speed, and the ability to not get steamrolled in melee...assuming you don't do stupid stuff like set yourself up for multicharges...

**Night Lords**

Augustus wrote:

Combo charge is the key to the Tyranid lock and makes the entire idea of a swarm build obsolete.

Actually, Im pretty sure it means your opponent wasnt playing very well. Proper positioning negates this. Hardly obsolete.

**ductvader**

MagicJuggler wrote:With their surprising mobility (Onslaught *does* help), they can play like Tau with less AT in exchange for more speed, and the ability to not get steamrolled in melee...assuming you don't do stupid stuff like set yourself up for multicharges...

Heck...I have seen bug armies that can outshoot Tau or Guard or whatever. The bugs have guns now. And they're getting really good at using them.

**Lyracian**

Augustus wrote:So to generally summarize: Mid tier
Antitank is still a problem
Some builds are effective Some combination are very dangerous
Codex requires synergy of units

I would say this sums it up nicely. Little bugs can kill anything with a wound value but cannot deal with armour, big bugs kill armour but do not have enough attacks for horde. I think it is a well balanced codex, the downside is that makes it middle of the road. The main weakness is that most of the Monsters cost too much and 90% of the anti-tank is Elite units which leaves no room for other Elite options.

Augustus wrote:Without analyzing every build I listed, and of course speaking generally here are the handicaps I think support the argument that Tyranids a low mid tier army in any guise:

Most of that is what I think makes it mid tier. What I think may push it lower is JawsOTWW and multi-unit combat resolution.

With Toxic Sacs Bugs are generally better than Orks in melee, what they lack is the hidden power-fist for dealing with armour or worse Tyranids bane - Dreadnaughts.
Gaunts really needed to be able to take a single Warrior to lead the unit.

**ductvader**

Lyracian wrote:
Gaunts really needed to be able to take a single Warrior to lead the unit.

Give them a Prime...

**Vepr**

ductvader wrote:
Lyracian wrote:
Gaunts really needed to be able to take a single Warrior to lead the unit.

Give them a Prime...

You can but you slow them down a lot between losing their fleet and special run rules plus they lose move through cover.

**MagicJuggler**

Hormagaunts would probably work better in support of Gargoyles and the Parasite of Mortrex.