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I'm sorry Solorg, but your insistance on painting all the space wolves of the galaxy light blue, and all the blood angels red, and so on... is just contrary to the spirit of the hobby. People can invent 'offshoot' chapters as they please to paint the color schemes they want. The way I see it, as long as it is WYSIWYG, You can use a funky color scheme chapter as some SW or BA for all I care. We don't all need to look like zzx top to have a taste for chainswords and plasma. We don't need to look like a big red or black crusade to have a taste for fast assaults either. Nor do we need to look like smurfs to get their special tactics rules and such. As long as the figure has the lascannon, it can count as a long fang or a devastator, depending on the army, shaggy hair or otherwise, as far as I am concerned.

hey now my, codex marines are not light blue or have any blue in them for that matter, they are gun metal, red trim on white shoulder pads the iron snakes from the dan abnet book, and there is no way I would discrace my chapter bye counting them as blood angels or space wolves.
space wolves are harry barbarians with some form of grey armor and snarl and have fangs, they are extremely dirty and viking looking.
blood angels are and there sussesor chapters have some form of red on there scheme and have blood angle names like angles of sanguinius or something very blood angel like. I agree if you play space marines try to keep it fluffy at least in the proper codex, I might field a counts as shrike in my iron snakes but he is converted and painted to match my army, and I stick with the regular codex. I think fluff is half the fun in this game and makes games alot more fun than just abusing the newest best codex, (wich bye the way I think the vanilla codex is the most powerfull one).

Solorg wrote:I agree that people should paint the way they want. But if you don't paint for a particular chapter, I do consider it munchkin if you use the models as anything other than "vanilla" marines. For example, Blood Angels are red, end of story. Black Templars are NOT orange and silver. It's as if I try to tell someone that my unit of Ork Nobz who have all choppas are actually all equipped with Power Klaws. In friendly games, sure, maybe you get away with it, but it gets old fast when things keep on changing.

Nowhere in any space marine codex does it EVER tell you what colors you have to paint your marines. If you want to use the Black Templar codex and paint your marines pink that is perfectly within the rules to do so. Wargear is a different issue though. You should be able to look at a model and see what equipment he has on him.


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Privatesmucker wrote:
blood angels are and there sussesor chapters have some form of red on there scheme and have blood angle names like angles of sanguinius or something very blood angel like.

Really? Are you sure about that? Is that why the Lamenters are yellow and have a name with Angel and Blood in it?

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Lamenters

hmmm... the Pink Templars... suddenly I want to repaint all my marines. If one marine player can have a 'counts-as' Shrike in the same army as a 'counts as' Calgar (something they even mention as being just fine in the Marine book) then I don't see how it is un'fluffy' to make an army full of mighty heroes and unique terminator squads with customized weapons and play it off the SW codex. They don't have to be hairy barbarians. Paint 'em in Leopard spots and call them the Space Leopards for all I care. As long as they follow a single codex, and WYSIWYG, instead of wierd house rules or FW 'experimental' rules, then they are just fine with me, leopard skins or otherwise.

Privatesmucker wrote:hey now my, codex marines are not light blue or have any blue in them for that matter, they are gun metal, red trim on white shoulder pads the iron snakes from the dan abnet book, and there is no way I would discrace my chapter bye counting them as blood angels or space wolves.
space wolves are harry barbarians with some form of grey armor and snarl and have fangs, they are extremely dirty and viking looking.
blood angels are and there sussesor chapters have some form of red on there scheme and have blood angle names like angles of sanguinius or something very blood angel like. I agree if you play space marines try to keep it fluffy at least in the proper codex, I might field a counts as shrike in my iron snakes but he is converted and painted to match my army, and I stick with the regular codex. I think fluff is half the fun in this game and makes games alot more fun than just abusing the newest best codex, (wich bye the way I think the vanilla codex is the most powerfull one).

First of all, please use some capitals, well placed commas, and other literary devices so I can understand what you are saying. Space wolves are characterized by LIGHT BLUE, not grey armour, blood angels don't always have red, and please check spelling.

I love Aspergers syndrome in gamers. Is it not conceivable that some chapter that isn't necessarily characterized by their armor being light blue (or 'space wolf grey' if you want to get really picky about specifics) could concievably also develop an honor and valor pecking order way of life entirely unrelated to viking culture. Maybe samurai? Maybe pirates? Gloating and jibing about who killed the most or whatever. And it would also be possible that said chapter would adopt ferocious hand-to-hand combat for this or that reason of personal glory. I don't see a problem with them being pink with olive colored trim for all I care.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
But I can have "fairly ornamental Jump Pack Dudes w/ Power Fists & Power Weapons" that would be Assault Vets or Sanguary Guard, or whatever.

Power weapons are not powerfists and are not interchangeable. Assault marines are equipped differently than Sanguary guard. They can't be the same model because they have totally different wargear.

For the Cav idea it'd be a quad style conversion that could be on a cav style bace, but it could count as bikes if I wanted.

Bikes have different weapons and wargear than TWC. Bikes are not Cavalry and have different rules. A bike is no more cavalry than it is a jump pack. If A Bike is cavalry because they both 'move fast' then a Lascannon is a Melta gun because they both have high AP. Almost every "My bikes are TWC" posts on these forums are lazy and do not meet WYSIWYG and are just people using PROXIES not COUNTS AS. It is also very confusing because you *CAN* take bikers in a spacewolf list and you *CAN* take assault marines when you take a BA list so it becomes even worse when you have no legitimate way to distinguish your codex specific units. It is not like you are an ORK player who wants Cyboars but have no rules for his models and has to 'counts as' bikes. Space wolves have rules for both bikes and wolves so taking a model that is clearly a bike and modeld as a bike and played as a bike in other lists and there is a valid option to take a bike and you use it as a Wolf is a Proxy.

How hard is it to correctly model codex specific units? You might want to look into magnetizing so you can swap the arms of your jetpack marines and swap your riders from bike to beastie. How many of these units *really* exist? maybe like 3? Is it hard to make a TWC unit used only when playing your ultramarine wolves and leave your bikers to be simply bikers? Kommandos and ork boyz are virtually identicle when ti comes to statline and wargear, but yet there is ane xpectation my Kommandos *look* different to distinguish them from other non kommando models to justify the user special rules. How are assault marines and Sanguary Guard and death company somehow all legit to have them modeld as generic assault marines with no distinguishing marks but be proxied as different models?

Many times people say they are WYSIWYG when they really are not even close and they say it is COUNTS AS when it is really a proxy. It is not about codexjumping, it is about doing it in a lazy and poor way that makes the game hard to play as you cannot clearly understand what models you are actually using due to bad conversions and calling Proxies 'counts as'.

Really??? The Space Marine Codexes don't specify color schemes for the different chapters??? For some reason, I was so sure that there was a complete list of chapters out there with all the colors specified.

But in truth, I don't really mind what colors you want to use 'cause I am easy that way. I'll still look at you all wonky-like though if you bring red marines and tell me they are Black Templars.

Yeah, and I'll probably play against you anyway.

I'd have more tolerance for the guy that came up with a totally original looking army and a great backstory who uses his models as the SAME chapter every time (successor chapter). If he jumps around and plays a different chapter every time with the same models, I suppose I would like that even less.

But you know, since my most common opponents play against me with nothing but bare metal and bare plastic, the truth is ANY kind of color would be like a special treat for me anyway.

nkelsch wrote:Power weapons are not powerfists and are not interchangeable. Assault marines are equipped differently than Sanguary guard. They can't be the same model because they have totally different wargear.

I am not saying that I will ever count a power fist as a power weapon. That would be wrong and confusing.

What I can do is have a generically (but nicely) painted squad of guys with power weapons and jump packs and some ornamental stuff on em.

I can make a couple extra models in the same scheme if I wanted to use the rules for a squad that had some 'Fists in em.

Bikes have different weapons and wargear than TWC. Bikes are not Cavalry and have different rules. A bike is no more cavalry than it is a jump pack. If A Bike is cavalry because they both 'move fast' then a Lascannon is a Melta gun because they both have high AP. Almost every "My bikes are TWC" posts on these forums are lazy and do not meet WYSIWYG and are just people using PROXIES not COUNTS AS. It is also very confusing because you *CAN* take bikers in a spacewolf list and you *CAN* take assault marines when you take a BA list so it becomes even worse when you have no legitimate way to distinguish your codex specific units. It is not like you are an ORK player who wants Cyboars but have no rules for his models and has to 'counts as' bikes. Space wolves have rules for both bikes and wolves so taking a model that is clearly a bike and modeld as a bike and played as a bike in other lists and there is a valid option to take a bike and you use it as a Wolf is a Proxy.

How hard is it to correctly model codex specific units? You might want to look into magnetizing so you can swap the arms of your jetpack marines and swap your riders from bike to beastie. How many of these units *really* exist? maybe like 3? Is it hard to make a TWC unit used only when playing your ultramarine wolves and leave your bikers to be simply bikers? Kommandos and ork boyz are virtually identicle when ti comes to statline and wargear, but yet there is ane xpectation my Kommandos *look* different to distinguish them from other non kommando models to justify the user special rules. How are assault marines and Sanguary Guard and death company somehow all legit to have them modeld as generic assault marines with no distinguishing marks but be proxied as different models?

Many times people say they are WYSIWYG when they really are not even close and they say it is COUNTS AS when it is really a proxy. It is not about codexjumping, it is about doing it in a lazy and poor way that makes the game hard to play as you cannot clearly understand what models you are actually using due to bad conversions and calling Proxies 'counts as'.

Did you miss the part where I'd convert them as Quad's instead of being "bikes". Maybe I like the rules for the unit of TWC, but think the idea of a Space Marine riding a giant monster to be a tad ridiculous? Maybe I want it to be something mechanical?

For the case of using SW rules, when I say "these guys that are on something clearly bigger than bikes on large bases are TWC". I wouldn't have any other actual "bikes" in the army (more because SW Bikes suck, but the reason is immaterial, the end item is important).

For using other armies, I would use those models as say a Biker Command/Honor Guard squad. If I had actual "bikes" along side them, then I'd have a set of actual bike models, not quads.

I already do have completely magnetized preds and dreads, and would expand on that. This way I can have the same dread model switch arms to different weapon configs, but a nicely ornamental Dread could be a Ven Dread in my Codex SM army, or a Librarian Furioso in a BA list. It would be clearly distinguished from a "normal dread", but still generic enough to represent whatever I wanted given specific options in an individual list.

nkelsch wrote:

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
But I can have "fairly ornamental Jump Pack Dudes w/ Power Fists & Power Weapons" that would be Assault Vets or Sanguary Guard, or whatever.

Power weapons are not powerfists and are not interchangeable. Assault marines are equipped differently than Sanguary guard. They can't be the same model because they have totally different wargear.

Unless he has magnets and interchangeable arms. I'd proffer if you're going this route to do that for multiple members of each squad. Same for your vehicles. in fact if I were fodoing it again I'd do that irrespective.

Hey I use 'doom eagles' color scheme, red trim on iron armor look. (mostly cuz its an easy paint and i'm lazy). Now if that dab of red lets me play a certain company of them using BA codex rules then so be it. Now, I won't go using my regular tactical marines as Sternguard either, those guys get a gold color helmet and a little 'scope' made of a bit of cylindrical sprue on their bolter. Just so the opponent knows what's what. I wouldn't like if people denied me their use just because they aren't the specific 'sternguard' models.

As long as they stand out as different from regular tac marines I don't see what the problem is. Likewise for dreadnoughts. You don't need a ven-dread model to field a ven-dread, you just need to model it in some way that it stands out from a regular dread. Add a banner, some different ad-hoc armor plates, or a couple of purity seals, or a fancy paint job, or some ridiculous kill markings, just so your opponent knows what it is meant to be.

Past that, who cares which codex the army uses for its core rules so long as it obeys the codex. So the first company is deathwing-style, the 2nd is ultra, 3rd is BA style, 4th is SW, etc. If anything it gives a chapter more possibility for fluff if each company has its own specific quirks and personality.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:
Did you miss the part where I'd convert them as Quad's instead of being "bikes". Maybe I like the rules for the unit of TWC, but think the idea of a Space Marine riding a giant monster to be a tad ridiculous? Maybe I want it to be something mechanical?

Then don't use the rules? A Quad is a bike or an attack bike. Convert a Mechanical mount. THere are lots of options.

For using other armies, I would use those models as say a Biker Command/Honor Guard squad. If I had actual "bikes" along side them, then I'd have a set of actual bike models, not quads.

Wait, you just said they are clearly too big to be a bike and couldn't be confused as a bike and now, they are bikes again?

Bikes are bikes, Cavalry have different rules. Jetpacks are jetpacks, Cavalry have different rules. Jetbikes are jetbikes, Cavalry have different rules. How you can randomly interchange them because they all go fast and say you are playing by WYSIWYG boggles my mind.

If you put a bike on the table, it is a bike. If you are playing the same model as Honorguard BIKES and TWC, in one of the two situations you are using a PROXY and breaking WYSIWYG especially since bike models have default attached hardware mounts do not so at best you are overmodeling.

But remember the ultimate rule: "The better your models actually look, the less people complain." Int he case of TWC, people complain a lot because they don't like Proxies forced upon them especially at events.

I play a non-codex color Space Wolf army.. Get of Freki. Tis mine and mine alone, yanno.. and I have a rep at the FLGS as they guy with Brown Wolves. Occasionally I get someone in my face as "Space Wolves are grey and yellow!" but .. eh. Their issue.

http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/images-6274-5767_Get%20Of%20Freki%20%28space%20Wolves%29.html

I do NOT use them as any other vanilla chapter though, I have a Omega Marine army if I HAD to go that route.

I have had minor experience with the "current Hotness" SM gray armies, but, eh.. I just wanna play, and as long as chainswords are chainswords, backpacks are not jumppacks, and rhinos are not StormRavens, I am good.

I think the space marine models are fine as is. Of course, all i need are the pieces....A Leg here for my deff dreads arm, a crushed torso beneath my trukk wheel, Terminator suits with orc arms and legs for meganobz. Heck, i even got 3 land raider looted wagons? You all seem to forget the most important part of space marine models....they work great on ork model convertions Every time I kill a space marine player in battle I mod another guy to be equipped with their stuff, I am currently at 35 models with space marines equiptment, whether it be heads, an arm, a plasma gun, rokkit launcher, I even got a warboss with an entire marine pinned to the ground beneath his feet as he roars in triumph! Bwahaha! Make way for the green tide! DEATH TO MARINES!!!!! WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAGH!

The fanboy elitism of telling people how they have to model or paint their (imperative word; THEIR) models both infuriates and amuses me simultaneously.

I get amused that someone gets so anal and nitpicky about something as simple as ornamentation or color, but infuriated that they take it (and themselves) so seriously as to think these things *really matter* and would think negatively of the person doing so.

As long as there is no GW created rule that your models have to meet a certain color scheme or use wargear that meets a certain appearance (think "Sanguinary Guard using regular looking jump packs," NOT "las pistols counting as lascannons"), people need to just get over it and themselves.

Eric

I had [way back just after the 2e SW dex came out] refuse to play my Space Wolv, becouse they were Primer Grey not Space Wolf Grey.

As a general rule, I find that people like playing against cool conversions. Having a well-executed and creative conversion lets people get away with a lot, at least in casual gaming.

Hey when in doubt make fun of there spelling and capital letters. We all know thats how to win a argument on wether space marines should use whatever codex they want no matter how they are painted right?

Guitardian wrote:Hey I use 'doom eagles' color scheme, red trim on iron armor look. (mostly cuz its an easy paint and i'm lazy). Now if that dab of red lets me play a certain company of them using BA codex rules then so be it. Now, I won't go using my regular tactical marines as Sternguard either, those guys get a gold color helmet and a little 'scope' made of a bit of cylindrical sprue on their bolter. Just so the opponent knows what's what. I wouldn't like if people denied me their use just because they aren't the specific 'sternguard' models.

As long as they stand out as different from regular tac marines I don't see what the problem is. Likewise for dreadnoughts. You don't need a ven-dread model to field a ven-dread, you just need to model it in some way that it stands out from a regular dread. Add a banner, some different ad-hoc armor plates, or a couple of purity seals, or a fancy paint job, or some ridiculous kill markings, just so your opponent knows what it is meant to be.

Past that, who cares which codex the army uses for its core rules so long as it obeys the codex. So the first company is deathwing-style, the 2nd is ultra, 3rd is BA style, 4th is SW, etc. If anything it gives a chapter more possibility for fluff if each company has its own specific quirks and personality.

I completly agree with you on modeling, I paint my veteren helemts white and put a terminator crux on there right shoulder pad to clearly identify them as stern guard, I use regular bolters, I add as many scopes as I can find, for combi's I convert the out of plasma pistols and melta guns.
As far as swaping out codex's at will, I don't agree.

Lamenters do not suffer from the red thirst and follow the codex strictly, not the blood angels codex fluff wise, they were a test chapter to get rid of the red thirst, wich worked but had some side effects.

There are some incredibly whiny bitches in this thread. If you cannot remember something as simple as 'which Codex is the other person using for this game', then 40k is probably too mentally taxing for you to begin with. This is not to say that one should put up with playing against a proxy horde, where bolter Marines magically sprout melta-guns and that plain-Jane unit of Assault Marines suddenly turns out to stand in for highly-decorated Sanguinary Guard, but at the same time as long as models a) have weaponry and detailing which makes them visually distinct from similar but differently-equipped models, b) are on the correct base size (no 25mm Daemon Princes etc.) and c) can reasonably be said to represent the unit they are intended to be (i.e. guys with jump packs and big power swords could easily be Sanguinary Guard or Vanguard Vets with relic blades but probably shouldn't be used as regular Assault Marines) then there is no good reason to deny someone the chance to use them based on 'it's not WYSIWYG!'

Seriously, if the person simply refused to paint their models would you be ok with that on the basis that not being painted red means you won't 'get confused'?

There, the Adeptus Astartes chart demonstrates the colors required for all ten million chapters:



Is this no longer used?

And even better, right here on Dakka, this one is zoomable so you can get a good close look:
http://www.dakkadakka.com/gallery/75422-Chapter%2C%20Space%20Marines.html

Whatever colors you picked, there's a chapter on there that uses those colors.

Some final food for thought regarding WYSIWYG and color choice. If I want my trukks to go fasta, I need to paint them red. If I paint them blue or green or yellow, no bonus. I've either painted it the right color or I haven't. And I can paint any way I want, they are my models. But I suffer the game consequences of my choice if I choose the wrong colors.

There's 104 schemes on the DakkaDakka version of that chart, less 6 because there's a bunch of repeated Chapters which brings us to 98. That leaves 902 free Chapters for DIYs - more than enough.

Solorg wrote:It's simple. If you follow the chapter's color scheme, everyone knows what it is just by looking. If you don't, no one knows what you're playing until you explain it. Sounds like a WYSIWYG problem to me.

For what it is worth, other armies don't really have that problem since you get to pick your own color scheme, but Space Marines definitely have color schemes that identify them as being from one chapter or another - and more importantly, indicate the kinds of abilities that the army possesses. And sure, you can make up your own chapter with your own colors. But to make up your own chapter with its own made-up colors and then claim that they are "yellow Blood Angels" or whatever, well, you're going to confuse a lot of people.

As mentioned, I'd probably still play you, but yellow Blood Angels? Come on!

I play as yellow Blood Angels. Lamenters wear yellow, with a black-and-white checkers, and a red heart as a chapter badge. (Bottom left of your chart)

In the GW fluff, they have "cured" the curse, but something else bad is happening. In my personal fluff, that is a brewing civil war in the chapter between those who have embraced this "cure" and those who see it as the eradication of their culture, heritage and identity. Thus, I feel justified inusing the BA book or the Vanilla book, as I choose. So far, I see it as unlikely I will choose the Vanilla book very often.

Good to see some more common sense/non-elitism. There is hope!

I am actually disappointed nobody has the chart for the best ever space marines on here, gimme a few minutes to go find it, then you'll have the best space marines ever poster

here they are. Proof of the only marines worth while having in your army box.

Lol...
I use the Crimson Leaves - a bunch of Canadians pulled from a parallel universe who have little to no respect for correct structure, love 'special' massages from eldar ladies, hate Inquisitors, and wish to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Also, they are lead by a MotF, use Crimson and Grey as Chapter Colours, use a maple leaf on their left shoulder, and are an Ultrasmurfs successor chapter.

Solorg wrote:Really??? The Space Marine Codexes don't specify color schemes for the different chapters??? For some reason, I was so sure that there was a complete list of chapters out there with all the colors specified.

Thats funny perhaps you would like to list all 1000 of them then? Oh thats right they have never all been listed. Perhaps you should learn the fluff before you lecture others on what is and what is not fluffy. There is nothing worse than a fluff lawyer who doesn't know what they are talking about. THERE ARE 1000 CHAPTERS NOT 102.

JSK-Fox wrote:Lol...
I use the Crimson Leaves - a bunch of Canadians pulled from a parallel universe who have little to no respect for correct structure, love 'special' massages from eldar ladies, hate Inquisitors, and wish to redeem themselves in the eyes of the Emperor. Also, they are lead by a MotF, use Crimson and Grey as Chapter Colours, use a maple leaf on their left shoulder, and are an Ultrasmurfs successor chapter.

Mines much more pedestrian. Thanes of Alpharus-aka the Zinc Warriors. Illegitimate successor chapter to the Iron Warriors. White and gold with monocolored painted shoulderplates (easier for me to see the special weapons as they have a different color on one plate).

Solorg wrote:There, the Adeptus Astartes chart demonstrates the colors required for all ten million chapters:

1000 chapters not 10,000,000. Please show me somewhere on that chart or in the any book where it specifically says you have to paint a marine army a certain way to use a specific codex? We all know you can't so you are really just full of ****.

Solorg wrote:
Is this no longer used?

It never was used as the be all end all of chapter paint schemes. Way to totally misinterpret what it was meant for.

Solorg wrote:
Whatever colors you picked, there's a chapter on there that uses those colors.

Some final food for thought regarding WYSIWYG and color choice. If I want my trukks to go fasta, I need to paint them red. If I paint them blue or green or yellow, no bonus. I've either painted it the right color or I haven't. And I can paint any way I want, they are my models. But I suffer the game consequences of my choice if I choose the wrong colors.

There are no wrong colors in painting your marine army. Again stop making stuff up. Just because you want it that way doesn't mean it is meant to be that way.

Many other ork players I know of still use the "red makes things go faster" rule for orks, but we just change the name. I for instance paint most of my models black with white skulls in regards to my boy Frank Castle, so I call mine "Black goes faster" No one really cares about the EXACT color, as long as it is "counted for" As long as you can tell it's "special" or something thats obvious enough most players wont care