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Solorg wrote:Some final food for thought regarding WYSIWYG and color choice. If I want my trukks to go fasta, I need to paint them red. If I paint them blue or green or yellow, no bonus. I've either painted it the right color or I haven't. And I can paint any way I want, they are my models. But I suffer the game consequences of my choice if I choose the wrong colors.

As much as I love historical wargaming, Warhammer 40k is not a historical game.

You suffer the game consequences of choosing the wrong colors for your fictional space man army? This idea is not only completely unnecessary, but it also runs completely counter to the creativity the game is supposed to encourage. The open-ended creative opportunities is one of the major draws of the game when compared to historicals. I mean let's get real here....Anyone who isn't living entirely within the GW bubble isn't playing 40k just for the rules.

brettz123 wrote:

Solorg wrote:Really??? The Space Marine Codexes don't specify color schemes for the different chapters??? For some reason, I was so sure that there was a complete list of chapters out there with all the colors specified.

Thats funny perhaps you would like to list all 1000 of them then? Oh thats right they have never all been listed. Perhaps you should learn the fluff before you lecture others on what is and what is not fluffy. There is nothing worse than a fluff lawyer who doesn't know what they are talking about. THERE ARE 1000 CHAPTERS NOT 102.

Woah, easy there Brett. I'm not suggesting that all the chapters are shown, although my point is that Marine Players, no matter what color they like, already have their paint scheme likely represented.

What I am suggesting is that if your Chapter does appear on this chart, that I would imagine that it is for a reason. So if the colors mean nothing, why bother having a chart?

So essentially I am challenging you to explain how this chart fits in if, as you suggest, these aren't the recognized colors.

Hey, I am an Ork player, not a marine player. But I have a feeling that if I pick up a copy of the new Blood Angels dex that I will find the same red paint scheme on every Blood Angels model in the book (except the Death Company, of course). Space Marine players know better than I what is allowed re: painting schemes and what isn't - but I'd like to have someone cite a reason why any color goes other than "no one said I couldn't" or worse "because I want to."

As an Ork Player, all marines look basically the same to me anyway - they all have terminators, they all have landraiders, they all have Rhinos, and so on. To me, the only thing that differentiates one Marine army from another is paint scheme continuity. Take that away and it sort of shatters the illusion for me that there even are different chapters.

Can someone confirm either that the color chart for Space Marines is either legitimate or not? If GW has changed its position on marine chapter colors, when did this happen?

The chart is just for fluff and inspirational purposes. You can take it or leave it, or modify it to suit your purposes. It doesn't have anything to do with the rules. Just like the artwork, short stories, and other fluff pieces in the codices don't have anything to do with the rules.

Solorg wrote:

brettz123 wrote:

Solorg wrote:Really??? The Space Marine Codexes don't specify color schemes for the different chapters??? For some reason, I was so sure that there was a complete list of chapters out there with all the colors specified.

Thats funny perhaps you would like to list all 1000 of them then? Oh thats right they have never all been listed. Perhaps you should learn the fluff before you lecture others on what is and what is not fluffy. There is nothing worse than a fluff lawyer who doesn't know what they are talking about. THERE ARE 1000 CHAPTERS NOT 102.

Woah, easy there Brett. I'm not suggesting that all the chapters are shown, although my point is that Marine Players, no matter what color they like, already have their paint scheme likely represented.

What I am suggesting is that if your Chapter does appear on this chart, that I would imagine that it is for a reason. So if the colors mean nothing, why bother having a chart?

So essentially I am challenging you to explain how this chart fits in if, as you suggest, these aren't the recognized colors.

Hey, I am an Ork player, not a marine player. But I have a feeling that if I pick up a copy of the new Blood Angels dex that I will find the same red paint scheme on every Blood Angels model in the book (except the Death Company, of course). Space Marine players know better than I what is allowed re: painting schemes and what isn't - but I'd like to have someone cite a reason why any color goes other than "no one said I couldn't" or worse "because I want to."

As an Ork Player, all marines look basically the same to me anyway - they all have terminators, they all have landraiders, they all have Rhinos, and so on. To me, the only thing that differentiates one Marine army from another is paint scheme continuity. Take that away and it sort of shatters the illusion for me that there even are different chapters.

Can someone confirm either that the color chart for Space Marines is either legitimate or not? If GW has changed its position on marine chapter colors, when did this happen?

You forgot one similarity my fellow Ork. They all die squisjy deaths beneath the feet of our Ork Superiority!

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:You forgot one similarity my fellow Ork. They all die squisjy deaths beneath the feet of our Ork Superiority!

Hur hur hur Solorg happy now

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:Many other ork players I know of still use the "red makes things go faster" rule for orks, but we just change the name. I for instance paint most of my models black with white skulls in regards to my boy Frank Castle, so I call mine "Black goes faster" No one really cares about the EXACT color, as long as it is "counted for" As long as you can tell it's "special" or something thats obvious enough most players wont care

blasphemy any proper ork knows red ones go faster. I think black ones should move slower, just for being a heretic to proper ork fluff.

Privatesmucker wrote:

Warlordron'swaagh wrote:Many other ork players I know of still use the "red makes things go faster" rule for orks, but we just change the name. I for instance paint most of my models black with white skulls in regards to my boy Frank Castle, so I call mine "Black goes faster" No one really cares about the EXACT color, as long as it is "counted for" As long as you can tell it's "special" or something thats obvious enough most players wont care

blasphemy any proper ork knows red ones go faster. I think black ones should move slower, just for being a heretic to proper ork fluff.

Ah but what you dont know is the first ork that figured that out was actually colorblind, and a gretchin told him it was "red" to make fun of him. When he found out a day later, it was too late, so he just killed the gretchin, popping its head like a grape, and only his tribe know the truth, that BLACK makes things go faster...

Solorg wrote:Hey, I am an Ork player, not a marine player. But I have a feeling that if I pick up a copy of the new Blood Angels dex that I will find the same red paint scheme on every Blood Angels model in the book (except the Death Company, of course). Space Marine players know better than I what is allowed re: painting schemes and what isn't - but I'd like to have someone cite a reason why any color goes other than "no one said I couldn't" or worse "because I want to."

Can someone confirm either that the color chart for Space Marines is either legitimate or not? If GW has changed its position on marine chapter colors, when did this happen?

Are you even reading anyone else's posts?

As I already said, I play as Lamenters. They are a Blood Angels successor chapter. They are YELLOW. According to some fluff, they may or may not have "cured" the Blood Angel curse. Either way, the BA Codex is a perfectly legitimate army book for them.

They are right there on your colour chart. Yellow with black and white checks, and a dripping Valentine's heart as Chpater logo.

The chart is a creative piece of art/decoration/fun, not a definitive set of rules.

Voodoo Boyz wrote:So this is what the DIY chapters did after they got rid of Traits in 5th Ed 40k?

I feel far less like a unique snowflake than I did 10 minutes ago, Thanks Frazz!

Heck, Jervis Johnson himself commented that his generic grey marines have been just about every chapter since the start of third edition. So, it's Jervis approved!

I think more people did that in third, when it seemed like each new marine codex was (well, except DA) were even more powerful than the last.

In fifth, I think you can still pull it off, but I think it's getting harder. SW and BA both have some unique units that make it harder to pull this off. But, if you can, more power to you.


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Solorg wrote:Can someone confirm either that the color chart for Space Marines is either legitimate or not? If GW has changed its position on marine chapter colors, when did this happen?

There is a color chart. It's pretty. There's probably 100-200 chapters that have color schemes.

And then, GW has also said that the Codex Astares (the tome which specifies how a marine does everything and anything) allows for commanders to change colors, unit markings, adopt camoflage, or do whatever they want. It even notes that changing unit markings, rank insignia, etc. is a great way to confuse enemy snipers (from the Insignia Astares book that Black Library did).

Ultimately, they are your models. And you should paint them how you want. Want red Ultramarines or blue Blood Angels? Go for it.


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MagickalMemories wrote:The fanboy elitism of telling people how they have to model or paint their (imperative word; THEIR) models both infuriates and amuses me simultaneously.

I get amused that someone gets so anal and nitpicky about something as simple as ornamentation or color, but infuriated that they take it (and themselves) so seriously as to think these things *really matter* and would think negatively of the person doing so.

As long as there is no GW created rule that your models have to meet a certain color scheme or use wargear that meets a certain appearance (think "Sanguinary Guard using regular looking jump packs," NOT "las pistols counting as lascannons"), people need to just get over it and themselves.

Eric

It's because some people are easily confused. I'm not saying it is the people in this thread, but some are. As long as the OP isn't doing something like using quad bikes as TWC and attack bikes at the same time, I could care less what he does. If it's a good looking conversion, kudos to him.

A friend of mine used to make up silly gimicky special rules just for fun long ago (IG genestealer-launcher cannon that fired an angry captured genestealer into HTH for instance)... one of the funnier ones he came up with was the "Blood Angels Lava Roll". This was 2nd. ed before AoD came out so all marines used the same army rules... So he distincted his Blood Angels by using the "Lava Roll" where whenever they are charging down an elevation, they get +1 S... picture a bunch of red marines in 1 ton suits of armor rolling down a hill at you. Funny stuff. Nobody minded back in those days we all just thought it was fun.

Solorg wrote:What I am suggesting is that if your Chapter does appear on this chart, that I would imagine that it is for a reason. So if the colors mean nothing, why bother having a chart?

So essentially I am challenging you to explain how this chart fits in if, as you suggest, these aren't the recognized colors.

Much like the 30-odd Chapters featured in the Space Marine Codex, they are suggested hooks to allow one to do something a little different with one's Marines without having to come up with something entirely new. The Marine book makes it very explicit that DIY Chapters are perfectly acceptable and that the 30ish Chapters featured (and, for that matter, the 100 or so that you linked) are not intended to be any kind of limiting factor.

e: For that matter, the 6 Orky Klans aren't supposed to be the entire extent of Ork groupings either. I'm beginning to suspect you're either trolling or don't know the fluff too well.

Solorg wrote:

So essentially I am challenging you to explain how this chart fits in if, as you suggest, these aren't the recognized colors.



Can someone confirm either that the color chart for Space Marines is either legitimate or not? If GW has changed its position on marine chapter colors, when did this happen?

Since you are obviously trolling I will explain this very simply to you.

1. The chart is legitimate but it does not do what you seem to think it does.

2. It shows the official color schemes for about 100 Space Marine Chapters.

3. Those are not all the Chapters that exist.

4. Those are not all the paint schemes that exist.

5. Those are not all the Chapter insignias that exist.

6. GW published the chart to give gamers something to look at and get ideas from.

7. It was never intended or stated that this was the only way you could paint your marines.

8. GW has continually and officially stated that the remaining 900 or so chapters are specifically there so that people can paint their miniatures in any color scheme and with any insignia that they want to.

Now are you really so dense that you do not understand that or are you really just being a troll? If you need further explanation please let me know what part you have failed to comprehend. The codex you use has absolutely nothing to do with the color scheme you use on your marines.

This is my contribution to this discussion:





Go ahead, tell me the painting schemes are wrong.

Hordini wrote:Solorg, what about successor chapters? That seems like a pretty good reason to use chapter-specific rules with an alternate color scheme.

As far as I'm concerned, as long as the weapons, equipment and vehicles are basically WYSIWYG, I don't have a problem.

That's the beauty of DIY chapters though. I'd much rather see a selection of nicely painted marine armies with custom color schemes that all use the Blood Angels codex (or whichever other codex), rather than one more of the same red marine army.

I agree with this wholeheartedly, and I think that this was the intention of the game's creators. GW has never attempted to define every chapter, or successor, because they want players to make yellow Raven Guard Successors, pink Hello Kitty marines (actually a Dark Angels successor! Who'd have guessed...), black, blue, green, and purple Blood Angels, or whatever will make them happy. Remember, the game is supposed to be fun, a pretty big part of that is playing the army you want to play.

If people bitch because they think you are using the wrong codex for your army, don't waste your time with them; the game will surely suck anyway when they nitpick every rule, and chastise you for not modeling krak grenades on all your marines, or painting sergeant's hair the wrong color.

Marines are marines. After playing at my store for so long and people constantly shifting gears to the next bandwagon marine army I've stopped caring if a guy rolls up with orange marines with green trim and says they are space wolves. I just want to see that he actually knows the damn rules for said army.

Colors don't - can't - matter. Ever. Is anybody really going to object to somebody painting their pink horrors of Tzeentch green, on the grounds that they're not properly pink? (Personally, mine are pink. But if I ever realized somebody I was playing against was the kind of person who would object to green ones, I'd pack up and leave.)

That said, I do agree that any counts-as models for one kind of unit need to be distinguishable from counts-as models for another kind of unit, and should have reasonable wargear representations. And outright non-WYSIWYG proxying should be discouraged after one to two games.

The way I always imagined it - vanilla marines, any color you want.

Named Chapters - possessed of an official color scheme.

Named Chapters with differing color schemes - "Fun" armies for the modeler's enjoyment, maybe for friendly games

Well, I see now after reading through the comments here that color is actually not a part of a Space Marine's identity since any chapter can have any color, and that what I perceived as a chapter's required color scheme is, at best, a suggestion.

Well, go figure.

Solorg wrote:
Well, I see now after reading through the comments here that color is actually not a part of a Space Marine's identity since any chapter can have any color, and that what I perceived as a chapter's required color scheme is, at best, a suggestion.

Yes. This. As long as you tell your opponent what set of rules you are using (Vanilla, BA, DA, BT, GK, SW) and the models can be easily distinguished to be whatever they represent. You can use any set of rules for any set of marines.

Dashofpepper wrote:This is my contribution to this discussion:





Go ahead, tell me the painting schemes are wrong.

Yes... yes... they are extremely wrong. In a good way. You would probably a lot of fun to game with.
I have no camera, but I have a chimera with a license plate on the back that says "This Job Sucks", and a heavy weapons team where the shouting pointing sidekick guy is pointing at the gunner guy and on the base it says "haha! you totally missed!" nobody ever minded when I brought those things out they are quite good for a laugh. I heard a rumour that famous comedian Robin Williams has an army of gay pink orks too. My little brother painted daisies and pink and neon green armor on his IG army and posed them doing the can-can dance (all legs kicking up in unison)... he calls it the 'Cadian Cabaret'... 'wrong' modelling and absurd color schemes is great fun, but no matter how goofy or unfluffy your models may look, the rules in the codex still apply. Of course I wouldn't be scared by a Leman with a big pink daisy painted on it... until the battlecannon fires.


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Solorg wrote:The way I always imagined it - vanilla marines, any color you want.

Named Chapters - possessed of an official color scheme.

Named Chapters with differing color schemes - "Fun" armies for the modeler's enjoyment, maybe for friendly games

Well, I see now after reading through the comments here that color is actually not a part of a Space Marine's identity since any chapter can have any color, and that what I perceived as a chapter's required color scheme is, at best, a suggestion.

Well, go figure.

oh good lord, it takes this long to figure that out? Hey supposedly the Saim-Hann craftworld uses lots of jetbikes too... So if I make a red color scheme on my Eldar does that mean I need to take more jetbikes to stay legit. This is so silly.

I am all for it. 80% of stuff looks and usually functions the same anyways - rhinos are rhinos, bolters are bolters etc. With some careful planning for the cost of two armies (a core + extra bits for each codex) you could have an army capable of being vanilla, BA, DA, BT, SW, even CSM. Rock on. It's an expensive hobby, I do not begrudge anyone seeking to save some money while at the same time offering me a more diverse pool of armies to face.

IMO it's not far off from what many marine players do now, though it's mostly through SC selection - Vulkan vs. Pedro vs. Lysander, all with their Ultramarines or custom chapter. It's just taken a step further. May as well get upset at a Black Legion player who swaps out icon bearers in different lists.

And how is it really much worse than someone with 5K+ pts of vanilla marines, who can take a dreadbash force one week, a troops-biker list the next, pod-heavy scoring sternguard the next, etc. etc. etc.?

And besides, in a number of ways swapping codexes is actually helpful in playing some MORE fluffy SM forces - Deathwing for 1st company, BA with Troop assault squads for some of the Assault Companies, etc.

For me, variety is good and fun. I don't want to play out the exact same matchups and missions over and over. Bring it on.

Well my final thought on the matter is I don't like it, I believe in one codex per army, not that I would not play against someone who did this as long as they played bye the rules and were wysiwyg but I would never go that route I think it's scraping the gutter, and believe armies should be built with a fair amount of fluff in mind. If I wanted to use a dark angles codex and play doublewing for instance, I would build a dark angles army or a proper chapter that came from there gene seed. I do understand it is legal, but I dont think that was the intent, and at least where I play wich is in california where we have alot of players and have attended lots of tournaments, most players stick to one codex and take pride in building a fluffy army and would'nt go that route iether.

Hey I love me some fluff too, but the fact is that models are expensive, the game is constantly changing. Oh yeah... it's meant to be fun too. Some people have fun by beating the snot out of other people with hyper-efficient armies and gloating about their tactical genius. Other people have fun just playing with their little toy space men. If I have to play a compet game I will probably not use my SM as SM because they are simply outmoded by other more modern codex... but at the same time, I aint shelling out a thousand bucks better spent on guitar strings and rent, just so I can be legitimate as an official SW. I guess in my mind what it comes down to is 'People please, stop taking this so seriously its a fething game'.

First of all,

Guitardian wrote:I love Aspergers syndrome in gamers. Is it not conceivable that some chapter that isn't necessarily characterized by their armor being light blue (or 'space wolf grey' if you want to get really picky about specifics) could concievably also develop an honor and valor pecking order way of life entirely unrelated to viking culture. Maybe samurai? Maybe pirates? Gloating and jibing about who killed the most or whatever. And it would also be possible that said chapter would adopt ferocious hand-to-hand combat for this or that reason of personal glory. I don't see a problem with them being pink with olive colored trim for all I care.

Don't knock us Apsy guys! Most of us are fine! Really!
Secondly,
SM Battleforce + BT sprue + SW sprue + DA sprue + BA sprue + Blender = bestest chapter ever?