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I agree. The new poisoned rules are rather nice > But I play alot MEQs so I won't get too many re-rolls :/
Cheers anyway guys

@Radiohazard:
It's not just +D6 attacks, it's +2 to 6 attacks, while introducing no attacks for a 1 rolled.

Can you get +D6 attacks for 15 Points?
Can you get it for only 30 points?
A +1 attack or just a regular claw is infinitely better if we are going for the cheap-o Lord.

What about the rest? Want to weight in on the rest of the issues with going with T. Armor?

The rest goes on personal preference and army construction.

Do you have a Land Raider???
Oh look - stick some buddies in it with a CSMTL and away you go.
Frag and Krak grenades??? No other Terminator has them.
In fact - woop de fething doo to the other problems.

IMO - I would take the Nurgle Lord in Termie Armour with a DW, because it is better at taking out things like MC and IC. I have a lot of MC in my meta, so for me, he is the best choice.

MC ignore armor saves.
Most IC's will ignore armor saves.

What does T. Armor get you? A better armor save.
__________________________

Losing sweeping is a 'woop di' for you? Ok.
Frags: you go I1 when assaulting cover, that's not good.
No Kraks means he stuck at str 4 should he need to do AT work...minor issue I will agree.

There are termies with frag equivalents...Typhus comes to mind lol.

radiohazard wrote:
Hmmmm, Two Lords of Nurgle with Plaguebringer with a unit of Plague Marines in a Land Raider. THAT'S NO MOON IT'S A SPACE STATION!!!

EDIT: Better yet - Typhus, Terminator Lord of Nurgle with Plaguebringer, with a unit of Plague Marines in a Land Raider. NOW THAT IS A DEATH STAR!!!

Sorry, neither of those two units are "Death Stars" in any sense. Death stars are incredibly powerful, expensive units that can cause a lot of damage/look dangerous on the tabletop.

Plague Marines are not, and cannot be a Death Star. Their power comes from resilience. Extra T, FnP. Offensively, they're just more expensive CSM with crappier Initiative.

Let's compare your unit to a true Death Star, Lysander and some TH/SS terminators. They will shrug off the vast majority of your Lords' attacks (even moreso for the PM attacks) and Instant Death away at your PMs/Lords with no FnP.

Either way, my Lord tends to catch a Lascannon to the face before he does much. If he doesn't die right away, he can do some real damage (I run a Night Lords pattern, jump pack, LCs, meltabombs). But more times than not, I end up using a DP, who does much, much more damage.

radiohazard wrote:So what if the lord doesn't have EW or FNP, he's not a Space Wolf. Most army commanders don't have EW or FNP unless they are a special character, a DP or a SW Lord.

Lets look at these two beauties:

CSM Terminator Lord = 170.
MON, Plaguebringer, Combi-Melta.

Ok, this guy attacks at the same time as most MEQ characters and wounds on a 4+ like a MEQ character, but has a distinct advantage - the Daemon Weapon adding D6 Attacks. The fact he could fail shouldn't bother you as it is (as I have said before) only a 1/6 chance. To get results you have to put effort or risk in. This is the risk and the fact that this character can murder anything he sets his mind to is the result.

CSM Terminator Lord = 155
MOS, Blissgiver, Combi-Melta.

This is a different kind of monster. First of all, he is hitting before most characters at his initiative of 6. Coupled with the fact that if he wounds a model and it has no INV save or doesn't have EW, it is brown bread dead. Initiative 6 is a massive boost here.

And for those who think that I ignore the Sorcerer entry...

CSM Sorcerer Terminator Lord = 150
MOS, Warptime, Combi-Melta, Force Weapon.

For five points cheaper and a lot less risk than the other two, you can have this little beauty. There is a downside however, as you can only use one psychic power per turn and you can't use the Force Weapon's power in the same turn as Warptime, so it is more difficult to pull off an insta-kill.



The Lord is not a bad character. As Sanctjud said, you have to find the synergies to make him shine.

Well you can take a the cost of anything you have listed here, add 220 to it, and thats its real minimum cost. So as far as i can tell your "cheap and effective" chaos lord minimum price is 370. I can run two daemon princes with wings, mark of nurgle/tzeentch, warptime for 350. A daemon prince outshines a chaos lord in all ways except its ability to hide. Mark of nurgle on a lord makes him T5, princes start out T5. MOS + daemon weapon makes for instant death. Unfortunately at strength 4 the chances for him to actually instant kill something with a good amount of wounds (tryanids MC's and the like) is low since he cant wound them in the first place. To me the fact people have to specially design their lists just to make a lord useable justifies they arent worth taking. If you are going to design a list around your HQ it better be amazing, not average. Daemon Princes inject awesomeness to whatever list they come across.

mrwittwer wrote:
A daemon prince outshines a chaos lord in all ways except its ability to hide.

I think you're underestimating the ability to not get the hell shot out of your unit before they can do anything. A lord (or sorc) allows you a bit more protection for your expensive HQ to keep him in the game long enough to get into CC and hurt something. If those 170pt DPs go down before they cast a spell or swing a sword they aren't worth it. Certainly a lord/sorc can have the same problem of dying before delivering the goods, but they are definitely much less likely to suffer that fate.

mrwittwer wrote:
To me the fact people have to specially design their lists just to make a lord usable justifies they arent worth taking.
If you are going to design a list around your HQ it better be amazing, not average.

I think the point he was trying to make was that a lord can be a good choice for certain army builds but may not be the best choice for everyone. Any smart army builder will build an army that supports the units he brings.

mrwittwer wrote:
Daemon Princes inject awesomeness to whatever list they come across.

I disagree with this completely. DPs are not going to help any list they join. They are a great choice if your list supports them, but there are plenty of lists that their points would be better off spent on sorcerors or lords to better preserve their point costs.

As I said previously the lord also gives you the option to take a barebones lord (as per stelek's list) and spend those HQ points on more troops, heavy support, or whatever else your army needs. It just isn't always the smart choice to drop 300ish points on two monstrous models.

Well, 300ish is true. I'm only at 260 . Exactly at 300 is I go the MoN route.
I disagree with:

DPs are not going to help any list they join.

When in cover and at T6, they provide target saturation (near Armor saturation levels).

It just isn't always the smart choice to drop 300ish points on two monstrous models.

I can agree with this, and so it then comes back to the Sorc vs. Lord when the Daemon Prince is not chosen...

The answer is: depends on if you want a daemon weapon or a pychic power...both can be unreliable or over the top in performance.

Totally agree with your last statement there Sanctjud.

I would take one Nurgle DP and a Nurgle Lord.

The Nurgle DP pretty much takes on the Sorcerer's role, but adds a beat stick to it.

Yea, but it loses out on IC.
I was wanting to just focus on IC vs. IC and leave the MC out of it for the time being...

Actually... the DP takes on both the Lord and Sorc's role...

Halsfield wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:
A daemon prince outshines a chaos lord in all ways except its ability to hide.

I think you're underestimating the ability to not get the hell shot out of your unit before they can do anything. A lord (or sorc) allows you a bit more protection for your expensive HQ to keep him in the game long enough to get into CC and hurt something. If those 170pt DPs go down before they cast a spell or swing a sword they aren't worth it. Certainly a lord/sorc can have the same problem of dying before delivering the goods, but they are definitely much less likely to suffer that fate.

Very rarely do any of my daemon princes get shot, much less wounded, before they enter CC. With an 18" assault range i have a lot of room to hide. I dont use lash princes but for those who do its pretty simple. Turn 1 daemon prince flys forward into heavy cover or hides if possible. Hopefully shooting cracks open some armor. Turn 2 daemon prince flys forward again, lashes, assaults. I should say IG players are a rarity where i play so i cannot say if IG gunlines make that big of a difference or not. But i do play against about everything else so and i have rarely had problems. And for every time they shoot at my daemon prince my rhinos are just that much closer. It evens out in the end.

Halsfield wrote:

mrwittwer wrote:
Daemon Princes inject awesomeness to whatever list they come across.

I disagree with this completely. DPs are not going to help any list they join. They are a great choice if your list supports them, but there are plenty of lists that their points would be better off spent on sorcerors or lords to better preserve their point costs.

As I said previously the lord also gives you the option to take a barebones lord (as per stelek's list) and spend those HQ points on more troops, heavy support, or whatever else your army needs. It just isn't always the smart choice to drop 300ish points on two monstrous models.

This might have been a bit of an extreme statement and i am in no way justifying taking two daemon princes every turn. I was just trying to state a lord in terminator armor is such a silly choice when for less points you could have two daemon princes. And at lower point games i agree daemon princes are probably not the best choice, but i dont believe they ever really hurt an army. They arent expensive, only a few points more than any sorcerer, and can really go and dish out pain by themselves if they really need to.

I do like the DP along with my lord, but the part where a termi lord is more than 2 DP is wrong, dont mean to keep sounding like this but 2 basic DP are like twice the cost of a termi lord.

anyways, my DP are nurgle with wings, maby warp time or WoC, but if fighting guard or other T3 armies then nurgles rot. you can hit lots of models with a 6" circle around the DP. the DP helps draw fire from the rest of the army.

maxpower3579 wrote:I do like the DP along with my lord, but the part where a termi lord is more than 2 DP is wrong, dont mean to keep sounding like this but 2 basic DP are like twice the cost of a termi lord.

For a terminator lord to be succesfully delivered it needs a transport which would be a landraider or a strong retinue of other terminators to deepstrike with. This makes the real cost of a terminator lord at least 350 point investment overall.

Ok then yes, he would cost more thanks for clarification.

Thought I might ask a few questions:

1. Can teleport units use a Daemon Prince's Icon?

2. Can a Daemon Prince Deep Strike on a unit's Icon?

3. Can a Daemon Prince causes 10 casualties in an enemy unit?

4. Can a Daemon Prince carry a Melta weapon? Or shoot without access to psychic powers?

5. Can a Daemon Prince enter a vehicle?

6. Can a Daemon Prince be Possessed by a Greater Daemon?

7. Can a Daemon Prince ride a Bike?

I think it really needs emphasizing that a Daemon Weapon has the same reliability as either a Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer casting a psychic power, or 0.83, and better reliability around anti-psychic wargear.

The Lord is threatened by a unit with a hidden Powerfist, but so is the Prince because Powerfists are great at removing wounds from T5(6) models. It's also easier for a Lord to get cover, get line of sight blocked, and accompanying a unit has more wounds to shed.

Nurglitch wrote:Thought I might ask a few questions:

1. Can teleport units use a Daemon Prince's Icon?

2. Can a Daemon Prince Deep Strike on a unit's Icon?

3. Can a Daemon Prince causes 10 casualties in an enemy unit?

4. Can a Daemon Prince carry a Melta weapon? Or shoot without access to psychic powers?

5. Can a Daemon Prince enter a vehicle?

6. Can a Daemon Prince be Possessed by a Greater Daemon?

7. Can a Daemon Prince ride a Bike?

I think it really needs emphasizing that a Daemon Weapon has the same reliability as either a Daemon Prince or a Sorcerer casting a psychic power, or 0.83, and better reliability around anti-psychic wargear.

The Lord is threatened by a unit with a hidden Powerfist, but so is the Prince because Powerfists are great at removing wounds from T5(6) models. It's also easier for a Lord to get cover, get line of sight blocked, and accompanying a unit has more wounds to shed.

1. Isn't the list filled with other units that have icons? And wouldn't the Lord be inside a unit that would have an icon?

2. Why is the Lord deep striking? Is he part of a Termicide unit? Why not just have another Terminator with combi for 100 points cheaper? Is he escorting Oblits? Why make the unit more expensive?

3. Can a Lord? (Answer: no; rolling max with a daemon weapon he'll kill about 3 MEQs)

4. Why are you relying on a Lord as a melta carrier? There's two in each squad and Terminators do it just as well for cheaper; far cheaper.

5. Does a Daemon Prince have to enter a vehicle because he's a slowpoke stupidhead hiking across the table?

6. For all practical purposes, neither can a Lord.

7. Chaos bikers are expensive and inefficient. If you're adding bikes to a list then the Lord's cost is implicitly higher, and he's still not as good in a fight as the Prince.

@Nurglitch

3. Yes, daemon princes are very good at sweeping advances.

4. A daemon prince rolls 2D6 to armor penetration with 5 attacks. Its not melta, but it always hits back armor.

7. Daemon Princes can gain all of the effects a bike gives. Relentless, +1 Toughness, and 12" movement. Tho i suppose not turbo-boosting.

However, I believe a Chaos Sorcerer can and more.

sourclams:

1. Indeed the list may have other units with Icons, and one imagines that any unit a Lord is likely to join will have an Icon. However, one of the points against Icons that frequently gets stated is that the Icon-bearer getting themselves killed deprives the unit of the benefits of the Icon.

Furthermore the list is filled with other units that can have Icons, Personal or otherwise, but the Personal Icon on a Chaos Lord or Chaos Sorcerer is the most reliable and most mobile Icon available. While the Chaos Lord has the advantage of being able to join a unit, it's not always necessary nor even wise. Lords with Wings can bother join units, and strike out on their own to be in position for reserves that come on next turn.

2. A Lord that Deep Strikes in combination with Obliterators, for instance, provides the Obliterators with an I5 close combat capabilities that alleviates one of their two chronic weaknesses: getting their firepower turned off by being trapped in close combat. A Chaos Lord in Terminator Armour can Deep Strike onto an Icon with an Obliterator or three and maximize their firepower by maximizing their close combat potential and minimizing the time spent in close combat. Making a unit of Obliterators more expensive is a good idea when it means keeping 350pts alive and shooting vs one turn of shooting by 225pts.

3. You mistake the expected number of casualties that a Chaos may kill with the potential that he can kill. By definition the majority of the time the Lord will kill about 3 Tactical Marines. A minority of the time he'll kill more. That's the point: there's a difference between being reliable and having a pretty good potential (5 casualties for a Daemon Prince not of Khorne), and being reliable and having a much better potential (10 casualties for a Chaos Lord not of Khorne).

4. There's an interesting difference between being able to equip a unit and relying on a unit. After all, we could rely on Termicide units, but the point of a Lord is about maximizing what you have available, and the Lord has access to non-psychic weaponry. Considering your point about "cheapness", you could buy another Terminator with Combi-Weapon for 35pts, or you could give your Chaos Lord a Combi-Melta for 10pts. Sure, that 25pt premium gets you another Terminator, but if your army is 2000pts and you have ten points left?

5. My point about vehicles is not about the Daemon Prince being slow. It's about survivability. If the Daemon Prince's speed and mobility is anything, it's equaled by that of a Lord with Wings, with the additional access to the protection of a transport vehicle.

6. For practical purposes, as I mentioned above, a Lord can be a perfect vehicle for a Greater Daemon. A Chaos Lord is a bad first choice, but a great last choice.

7. The inefficiencies of Chaos Bikers are greatly exaggerated, but that's neither here nor there. The point is that a Lord mounted on a Bike is faster than a Daemon Prince, and has synergy with teleport units such as Terminators, Obliterators, Lesser Daemons, and so on, and hence can do things that a Daemon Prince cannot. The Daemon Bomb may be dead, but this is the Chaos Space Marine Codex, so drop Terminators and Obliterators.

mrwitter:

3. Except casualties are caused in combat and go towards deciding whether the unit can be destroyed in a Sweeping Advance. In fact Chaos Lord and Daemon Princes are exactly equal when it comes to successfully engaging in Sweeping Advances.

4. I'm not asking whether a Daemon Prince can attack a vehicle in close combat. I'm asking whether he has Melta shots. He doesn't. Do you know what that means? It means that the Chaos Lord has 12" more effective range than the Daemon Prince. When factoring in the range, one S8 AP1 Melta shot at BS5 is more reliable than one round of five S6 Monstrous Creature attacks at 6+ to hit.

7. Daemon Princes gain neither Turbo-boosting nor a Twin-Linked Bolter. The Twin-Linked Bolter is pretty irrelevant, but the Turbo-Boosting is not (see the point above about the Icon).

Nurglitch wrote:
mrwitter:

3. Except casualties are caused in combat and go towards deciding whether the unit can be destroyed in a Sweeping Advance. In fact Chaos Lord and Daemon Princes are exactly equal when it comes to successfully engaging in Sweeping Advances.

4. I'm not asking whether a Daemon Prince can attack a vehicle in close combat. I'm asking whether he has Melta shots. He doesn't. Do you know what that means? It means that the Chaos Lord has 12" more effective range than the Daemon Prince. When factoring in the range, one S8 AP1 Melta shot at BS5 is more reliable than one round of five S6 Monstrous Creature attacks at 6+ to hit.

7. Daemon Princes gain neither Turbo-boosting nor a Twin-Linked Bolter. The Twin-Linked Bolter is pretty irrelevant, but the Turbo-Boosting is not (see the point above about the Icon).

Can a lord re-roll hits and wounds? Against MEQ's a prince is almost garunteeed 5 wounds on the charge. A daemon prince also doesnt have the chance to hurt himself and cause no wounds at all. And lords in terminator armor cant sweeping advance at all.

Again you dont factor in the daemon prince's abilities that make him better. With warptime a daemon prince can re-roll hits vs vehicles. And you ignore that Melta usually hits on front or side armor, daemon prince always hits on back armor. And a lord only has a 6" effective range to be comparative, since at half range he gains 2D6 armor penetration. Also, he only has 1 shot of Melta. You happen to roll a 1 and that is 10 wasted points. A daemon prince always has 2D6 to armor penetration and if he misses he gets re-rolls.

No he does not have turbo boosting. However as sourclams have stated, bikes are really irrelevant. And if you want to spend the points on a chaos lord with bike, plus bodyguard all to deliver an icon for deepstrikes that may or may not come when you want them to, be my guest. Its only less for me to worry about.

mrwittwer:

Actually, in order for a Daemon Prince to re-roll hits and wounds, he does indeed have to risk the chance to hurt himself and cause no wounds at all. The former is a factor of psychic tests, and the latter is the risk every model takes when they fight in close combat in 40k. Runes of Warding (that's the Eldar anti-psychic wargear right?) and the Shadow in the Warp will increase the risk of Perils of the Warp and no Warptime.

If you want to show that a Daemon Prince is more reliable at killing vehicles by moving into close combat and casting Warptime, as opposed to using a Combi-Melta shot, be my guest and run the numbers that prove my opinion wrong.

If you want to dismiss Bikes, well, if you're the kind of tactical genius that dismisses stuff out of hand rather than explaining and justifying your opinion, maybe a discussion forum on tactics isn't really your speed.

Sanctjud wrote:
I disagree with:

DPs are not going to help any list they join.

When in cover and at T6, they provide target saturation (near Armor saturation levels).

Target saturation is a good thing, but that doesn't make them the best choice for any list. There are times when DPs are the smart choice, and there are times when a lord/sorc is better. I know you know this so I think there was some miscommunication.

Sanctjud wrote:
The answer is: depends on if you want a daemon weapon or a psychic power...both can be unreliable or over the top in performance.

Well, I still think there are non-DW lords that are useful and cost efficient. Either the completely barebones lord /w just a combi-melta as his sole upgrade or a winged lord /w LCs(or some variation on the LC lord). I do agree that none of our HQ choices are far and beyond the best choice for all armies and so it comes down to playstyle, army list, opponents(ie tournament or FLGS meta), etc to determine what is best for that particular list. I think that was the entire point of my post though. Mrwittwer was saying DPs are good for any list and I was trying to show him why I think that is completely untrue.

mrwittwer wrote:
Very rarely do any of my daemon princes get shot, much less wounded, before they enter CC.

I would argue that this is not the case for the rest of the gaming world(simply by reading/watching lots of battle reports from around the world, listening to top tier tournament players, and reading these forums). Whether because you are facing a different meta with less long range firepower(as you say you don't play a lot of IG), you're playing opponents that don't know how to properly deal with DPs(not saying this is true, but a possibility), or some other reason. I could believe that you aren't being killed before entering combat by hiding/hugging cover, but not even being shot at? That isn't normal play for most competitive people/lists.

mrwittwer wrote:
This might have been a bit of an extreme statement and i am in no way justifying taking two daemon princes every turn. I was just trying to state a lord in terminator armor is such a silly choice when for less points you could have two daemon princes. And at lower point games i agree daemon princes are probably not the best choice, but i dont believe they ever really hurt an army. They arent expensive, only a few points more than any sorcerer, and can really go and dish out pain by themselves if they really need to.

Well thank you for tempering your earlier statement. I don't take lords in terminator armor so I can agree with you on some of that as well. Lords/sorcs should not be weighed down with a lot of big expensive upgrades. The more points you spend on any HQ the more likely your opponent is to focus his attention there. I'm never a fan of spending lots of points on one model. That is also the reason I'm not a big fan of 3x3man oblit squads + 2x expensive lash princes that people seem to enjoy.

I agree that adding a prince is never going to hurt your army,but I would always argue against anyone saying they are the best choice in any game. Whether you're taking a barebones token lord for ard boyz (to get more elites/heavy support/troops because DPs are going to be shot to pieces before they take a step at that point level) or hiding sorcs/lords in squads to get solid HQs without the giant target, they are useful at any point range if the list can make better use of them over a DP.

Nurglitch wrote:mrwittwer:

Actually, in order for a Daemon Prince to re-roll hits and wounds, he does indeed have to risk the chance to hurt himself and cause no wounds at all. The former is a factor of psychic tests, and the latter is the risk every model takes when they fight in close combat in 40k. Runes of Warding (that's the Eldar anti-psychic wargear right?) and the Shadow in the Warp will increase the risk of Perils of the Warp and no Warptime.

If you want to show that a Daemon Prince is more reliable at killing vehicles by moving into close combat and casting Warptime, as opposed to using a Combi-Melta shot, be my guest and run the numbers that prove my opinion wrong.

If you want to dismiss Bikes, well, if you're the kind of tactical genius that dismisses stuff out of hand rather than explaining and justifying your opinion, maybe a discussion forum on tactics isn't really your speed.

Again where you are wrong is that casting warptime and failing simply negates the use of the power and a wound that ignores armor saves. However a daemon prince may still make all of his attacks as normal, where as Daemon Weapons rolling a 1 for the attacks results in a wound that ignores armor saves and no attacks of any kind may be made by the model in question that turn. Its a big difference.

In all honestly i wouldnt know how to accurately mathammer the combi-melta vs Monsterous Creature tank killing ability. There are simply to many variables in which you again failed to recognize. I dont know how to accurately measure a Combi-weapon vs a special rule. Both serve the same purpose however a Combi-weapon is only 1 shot where as attacking as a monstrous creature lasts the entire time the model is alive, more often than not, the entire game. Both roll 2D6 however the combi-melta is AP1. A combi-melta must be within 6" and a daemon prince must be in base to base. These are generally the same as being within 6" is charge range anyways. However a daemon prince has better movements. I justify this as a daemon prince has wings which allow direct movements. Example, i can fly over enemy units, terrain, etc and assault a tank. Chaos Lord in a rhino must move around enemy units and such. More likely than not a combi-melta is going to be hitting front armor, possibly side armor and a daemon prince always hits back armor. This makes a significant difference as backarmor is generally 10 and front armor ranges anywhere from 14 to 10. This i also dont know how to accurately mathammer due to such variations. You also assumed the vechile had moved flat-out which is a neglegent assumption. Transport vehicles generally move flat out all of the time, but what about units like predators who generally sit still so they can shoot all of their weapons? Then i automatically hit with 5 attacks on back armor. A combi-melta still needs to roll to hit and then front or side armor. I dont know of many situations where combi-meltas would be shot at back armor and i find it to be a reasonable assumption to say combi-meltas hit front or side armor the great majority of the time. Then there is the issue of transports. Do we assume there are units inside or not? Is it worth shooting/assaulting the tank for either options. Chaos Lords have a weaker statline than daemon princes so how do we calculate the ensuing assault phase? What is the lord traveling with or is the lord deepstriking in terminator armor? What are the overall points invested into the lord and the daemon prince? These would need to be equal. And there are even many more basic variable beyond this for both sides before an accurate mathammer could be determined.

I have not dismissed bikes out of hand and if you would like an explanation i would be happy to oblige. First and foremost a bike lord is going to cost more than a daemon prince will. Having similar upgrades with a bike, icon, mark , and daemon weapon (only used since it has been used in every other scenario here) this comes out to anywhere from 170 to 185. A daemon prince with wings, warptime, and mark costs at max 175. Then is the biker lord going to just carry his personal icon alone? If he is then i will make the argument that anything strength 8 or more can one shot him easily. If not then he is going to need some bikers to come with him a bare minimum squad for him to join then ups his overall point total to 269. That is just 3 basic chaos bikers with no upgrades of any kind. Personally i think if you want a bike delivered icon simply take a min squad of 3 chaos bikers for 99 points with the 10 point icon of chaos glory. And if you want to use this as a possession vessel 15 points accomplishes that task which raises the points to 124 which is still less than your biker chaos lord. These facts alone should disprove why taking a biker lord is nonsense but for fear of you insulting my tactics again i shall go on. Since you stated you wanted to use the lord as an icon delivery method for deepstriking terminators, obliterators, and lesser daemons this means you will need to be close to the enemy. Reasons being - termicide only works within 6" of an enemy tank, oblits to kill tanks with Multi-meltas need to be within 12", 6" to use the twin-linked melta guns which are better for actually hurting the tank, and lesser daemons are only useful for assaulting from the deepstrike so he must be within 12" (6" summon circle, 6" assault). This doesnt sound so horrible except for the fact that deep striking is done before any other movements are made. What this means is the biker lord must be with assault range of an enemy unit the turn before anything is allowed to deepstrike from the icon. And since a chaos lord is an independent character even if he is joined to a chaos biker squad he can be singled out in close combat. And since he is a chaos lord a simple powerfist will be his undoing. And i shall formally apologize for not explaining this to you in the first place, i assumed you could figure it out on your own. Next time if you need a little help just ask nicely.

I won't say that the chaos lord is not useful. I'd rather say that there are better choices available.

Will a chaos lord make your list stink? No. Does a chaos lord have a place in a hard core tournament list? Probably not.

I think we're going to have a hard time lining a DP's abilities alongside a chaos lord and comparing them 1:1 whether with mathammer or logical discussion.

Is a combi-melta better than a DP? It all depends. Are you able to get within range and shoot at weaker armor? Will the DP be shot to death before he arrives or will he be able to hide and get up close unmolested? There is also the matter that the whole point of a lord/sorc is that they can be put into a squad, so shouldn't the squad be added to the equation? You wouldn't just be shooting at a tank with the lord's combi-melta, you'd probably also have either some terms with combi-melta, raptors with melta, or bikers with melta. All of those units can potentially get into position to fire at rear/side armor, but there are still more variables that make such a comparison difficult.

Feel free to try, but I think it will be ultimately fruitless with both parties developing situations where they are correct. Not to mention being a very large usage of time for something both parties are pretty solidly stuck on.

augustus5 wrote:I won't say that the chaos lord is not useful. I'd rather say that there are better choices available.

Lol. That is like saying: "We don't want to say our son is slowed, we just want to say he is less than smart". Maybe if you actually tried to back that statement up? I see plenty of situations/lists where a chaos lord could be useful and lots of people in this list (and tournament list builders) have as well.

augustus5 wrote:
Will a chaos lord make your list stink? No. Does a chaos lord have a place in a hard core tournament list? Probably not.

Would you believe lords have been used in competitive lists already? There is a very solid list from stelek that uses a chaos lord and zero DPs. It uses the saved points to spend on more troops/elites/heavy support instead of spending a lot of points on 2 models.

there has been alot of talk that a fist,lascannon,melta, str.8+ weapons instakill lords, they also kill sorcs too. its true you cant compare a lord to a DP apples to apples, so yes a DP has more tries to kill a tank, but the lord should hopefully have some buddys with him, so there might be 2 BS 4 meltas and 1 BS 5 combi-melta, then hopefully if in 6" get 2D6 and can charge, but wont be as good as the DP. and for the lord not being a tournament choice the other chaos player where i play runs one and has been up top for quite a while. he also has a DP so this adds too the list so why not a lord AND a DP?

maxpower3579 wrote:and for the lord not being a tournament choice the other chaos player where i play runs one and has been up top for quite a while. he also has a DP so this adds too the list so why not a lord AND a DP?

This is a good strategy in my opinion. A cheap winged prince (130 maybe 135 or 140 with MOS or MOK) to distract enemy units and attack anything mech while a cheap DW lord (130 points) + some KBs can lead a spearhead. In the hands of a smart player (and a good supportive list), this can be a great strategy and can give the player plenty of options.

So... my question is then...

DP + 'other' HQ.
How does Lord vs. Named Characters stack up then?
Most notably: Kharn.
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I generally go with 2 Cheap Princes...works for me anyway.
In addition, the reason I go for the second prince is because I don't have free space in any of my Rhinos...so there's no use in having a solo Lord...so that was an easy choice for me...

maxpower3579 wrote:there has been alot of talk that a fist,lascannon,melta, str.8+ weapons instakill lords, they also kill sorcs too. its true you cant compare a lord to a DP apples to apples, so yes a DP has more tries to kill a tank, but the lord should hopefully have some buddys with him, so there might be 2 BS 4 meltas and 1 BS 5 combi-melta, then hopefully if in 6" get 2D6 and can charge, but wont be as good as the DP. and for the lord not being a tournament choice the other chaos player where i play runs one and has been up top for quite a while. he also has a DP so this adds too the list so why not a lord AND a DP?

Because some of the discussion has revolved on not taking a DP and instead taking a lord to save points.

The problem with the 'pro lord' crowd, is that they are taking a cheap lord hq selection and making him expensive by 'adding some buddies' or making him even more expensive than a dp BEFORE 'adding some buddies'.

If you are going to take a single hq choice to keep him cheap, are you not defeating your purpose by not keeping him cheap?

I don't chaos has any real good hq choices, especially when compared to other codices, but I think the dp is the best bang for the buck, followed by a sorcerer.

Kharn is effective (hitting on 2s is an incredible asset) but the problem is that he eats your own allies and feeding him a 21 point bezerker on average a turn is expensive (and running him by himself is a problem). Now if a player rolls multiple 1s, it is both funny and terrible to see an Kharn decimate your entire unit. There is a great thread on warseer called "Today Kharn Killed". I suggest everyone reads it before fielding Kharn.

The other HQ's in my opinion are expensive for not much gain. The only named chaos HQs I would consider would be Abaddon (in high point games and eternal warrior is a huge plus), Fabius (Enhanced warrior lists are fun. Don't throw rocks at me for mentioning Fabius as this has been discussed to death already) and Arimahn (if he can get his mojo going). It is also sad to see a powerfist trooper being able to kill most chaos HQs, named or not, on a point cost scale of 90-250.

I believe you get more bang for your buck with unnamed Chaos HQs. Sure Abaddon is awesome but he also costs 275 points. For that I can take 2 cheap, effective chaos HQs.

candy.man wrote:Sure Abaddon is awesome buta loser, and he also costs 275 points. For that I can take 2 cheap, effective chaos HQsDaemon Princes.

Fixed that for you
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Basically, Kharn has the chance of killing his own guys, but still retaining his other attacks.
While, the DW Lord has the chance of wounding himself, but losing all other attacks.

DW is 'safer' but with lower output on the risk side of things, while Kharn's output is consistant...vs friend and foe that is.

In addition Kharn adds a unique blocking of some powers (most notably lash ).
I see Kharn well priced for what you get from him.
If one is that worried about feedback attacks, get some Inv saves going on on his posse .