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I have always wondered about this. It appears that people don't use a CSM lord that often, it is usually Princes and Sorcerers in the lists.
Are Chaos Lords bad? Or are there some lord build that can be useful?
Thanks in advance.

Chaos Lords really only bring more combat muscle.
In general I'd say 77% or more of the list has combat muscle.

So the Chaos Lord is redudent.
In addition, his 'unique' option for Daemon Weapons is a double edged sword...paying for something that's not that spectacular with the chance of hurting/killing him makes it IMO poo.

So... he's just not as shiny or useful as the other two options. Combat muscle is NOT what the CSM army needs more of.

You can say he's too one-dimensional and offers no Army-Wide Bonuses, nor changes and FOCs...he does nothing pretty much...

Chaos Lords can be very very good. The trick is to play to their strengths rather than making them small weak Daemon Princes.

Most obviously they can take Daemon Weapons, which are cool (especially the Death Scream in terms of user-friendliness, utility, and reliability), but more importantly they can have a Personal Icon, take Daemonic Steeds (really only useful for those with the Mark of Tzeentch), Bikes, and Wings.

Of Jump Packs, Wings, and Discs of Tzeentch I personally prefer the Disc since it's essentially the Mark of Khorne and a Jump Pack in an electric blue and yellow wrapper. Jump Packs have the benefit of being wholly immune to the Jaws of the World Wolf, that that's pretty much outweighed by the Wings allowing the Chaos Lord to join a unit inside of a transport for that double layer of protection...with Wings.

An important note on usage: While Daemon Princes are there to bully units, open transports, and generally draw fire, Chaos Lords are there to enable your units to wreak havoc and to co-ordinate with the teleporter elements of the army.

Something worth mentioning is the opportunity to possess a Chaos Lord with a Greater Daemon. If your Chaos Lord is fit as a fiddle, out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing, or there is a better vessel available, this is a bad idea. However, if your Lord is on his last legs, or facing down a group of large burly Assault Terminators, it's very definitely worth it to throw away your Lord in favour of avenging his impending doom with a Greater Daemon.

So, do you have Lesser Daemons in your army? A Greater Daemon? Terminators coming in by Deep Strike? Obliterators doing the same? These are all units with good synergy with a Chaos Lord. Likewise a Lord adds oomph to units of Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Bikers, and Raptors.

Interesting note: If you plan to Deep Strike a Lord in Terminator Armour, give him some Obliterators to make the drop with, as bodyguard and giving the unit all the firepower of the Terminators with the close-combat power of the Chaos Lord.

ok, I think I have got it now.
I do not however have any daemons, mainly for fluff reasons, but maybe I should add them anyway...
Thank you both.

Huh. I was expecting to come in to this thread and see the usual bitch fest, but Nurglitch surprises me and even points out some new uses for Lords I'd never considered.

Looks like I need to add some Oblits to both my Chaos armies. I wonder how well a Death Screamer and some Plascannons will sync...

I have recently started running a Dp instead fo a Chaos Lord.
but havign read Nurglith's post i may have to start takign a Termei Lord to support my 'Blitz.

@ Nurglitch - thanks for the input and hints.

I fail to see how a chaos lord with a Death Screamer is better than a sorcerer with Doom Bolt, especially if you give the sorc mark of Tzeentch and warp time.

The sorc is better shooting, better in CC, and won't ever stand around like an idiot while his weapon tries to kill him.

Nurglitch wrote:Chaos Lords can be very very good. The trick is to play to their strengths rather than making them small weak Daemon Princes.

Most obviously they can take Daemon Weapons, which are cool (especially the Death Scream in terms of user-friendliness, utility, and reliability), but more importantly they can have a Personal Icon, take Daemonic Steeds (really only useful for those with the Mark of Tzeentch), Bikes, and Wings.

Of Jump Packs, Wings, and Discs of Tzeentch I personally prefer the Disc since it's essentially the Mark of Khorne and a Jump Pack in an electric blue and yellow wrapper. Jump Packs have the benefit of being wholly immune to the Jaws of the World Wolf, that that's pretty much outweighed by the Wings allowing the Chaos Lord to join a unit inside of a transport for that double layer of protection...with Wings.

An important note on usage: While Daemon Princes are there to bully units, open transports, and generally draw fire, Chaos Lords are there to enable your units to wreak havoc and to co-ordinate with the teleporter elements of the army.

Something worth mentioning is the opportunity to possess a Chaos Lord with a Greater Daemon. If your Chaos Lord is fit as a fiddle, out in the middle of nowhere doing nothing, or there is a better vessel available, this is a bad idea. However, if your Lord is on his last legs, or facing down a group of large burly Assault Terminators, it's very definitely worth it to throw away your Lord in favour of avenging his impending doom with a Greater Daemon.

So, do you have Lesser Daemons in your army? A Greater Daemon? Terminators coming in by Deep Strike? Obliterators doing the same? These are all units with good synergy with a Chaos Lord. Likewise a Lord adds oomph to units of Plague Marines, Noise Marines, Bikers, and Raptors.

Interesting note: If you plan to Deep Strike a Lord in Terminator Armour, give him some Obliterators to make the drop with, as bodyguard and giving the unit all the firepower of the Terminators with the close-combat power of the Chaos Lord.

A Sorcerer Lord can do all of "important" things you mentioned (Icon, Demonic Steeds, etc), and has almost every single one of the synergies listed.

The only thing he can't do that a Lord can is use a Daemon Weapon, which if reading the actual RULES for the Daemon Weapon didn't tell you so, are a terrible choice. The Deathscreamer can hurt you even when shooting it, let alone when attacking with the thing.

Compared to a Sorcerer who can take a similar psychic power, which has only a 1/36 chance of harming the user (rather than the 1/6 chance for the Daemon Weapon).

To answer the OP, yes, the Chaos Lord = Not Useful. There is a very good reason why you don't see many of them in a competitive list. A DP gives you a nice MC who can cast Psychic Powers, but is a MC and all the drawbacks that entails. For everything else, take the Sorcerer.

A Chaos Sorcerer has WS5 instead of WS6 that the Lord Has, but otherwise the Stats are nearly identical for combat, and he comes with a Force Weapon standard.

I love the Chaos lord specially for nurgle. I strap wings and a combi melta with a daemon weapon and launch him at a unit that I need dead. Sure he often ends up dead in the process but he can kill DPs, Termis, entire squads w/e is needed he is a beat stick counter attack unit.

willydstyle:

The Deathscreamer has several advantages over Warp Time and Doombolt, namely that he isn't going to get shut-down by anti-psychic wargear, longer range and potentially more shots than Doombolt. He's also about 20pts cheaper. The Lord also has a slight edge against WS6 &WS5 opponents (harder for WS6 opponents to hit him, easier to hit WS5 opponents) when Warptime can't be used.

It's not really advantages vs disadvantages as stretching the risk/reward matrix up and to the right.

From a fluff perspective I rather like the way that the Lord, the non-psychic one, is Fearless because he's crazy enough to take the risks that the non-psychic have to take to attain immortality as a Daemon Prince. The Sorcerer, on the other hand, has a pretty good idea about the fate that awaits him should he fail in the bid for immortality, and while seeming like an esoteric madman to lesser mortals, is clearly rational enough (i.e. Non-Fearless) to run away and fight again another day.

I'm laid up after surgery and was perusing the chaos codex for lack of anything better to do this weekend. I noticed that the lord can take a combi-weapon without it replacing anything, so you can have a guy with two lightning claws who can also fire a BS5 melta once per game. Thought that might pertain to this discussion.

Voodoo Boyz:

I'm sure that if you check the rules, you'll notice that the numbers you've cited for the reliability of Psychic Powers and Daemon Weapons are false, if only in detail.

Psykers suffer Perils of the Warp on 2 or 12, which is 2/36 or 6% of the time. If a Sorcerer of Tzeentch suffers Perils of the Warp, they have an Iv4+ re-rolling success for saving 1/4 or 25% of those Perils of the Warp. So 4.5% of the time a psychic power will blow up in the face of the Sorcerer and cause a wound. Of course that power will naturally not be cast 17% of the time, and if affected by a Psychic Hood or Runic Weapon will only go off 42% of the time. To break it down further, 2.25% of the time it will be cast and inflict a wound on a caster of Tzeentch, and 2.25% of the time it will not be case and inflict a wound on a caster of Tzeentch. That chance of suffering a wound from Perils of the Warp goes up to 2.84% of the time if the Mark of Tzeentch is not involved.

Piling a Doombolt on top of a Warptime increases the chance of suffering Perils of the Warp on either test additively (12%), and adds the risk of losing two wounds in total (5/100s of a percent).

The Deathscreamer prevents a Chaos Lord of Tzeentch from shooting 17% of the time, and causes a wound 9% of the time. And then it prevents him from attacking 17% of the time, and causes a wound 9% of the time. That's a 34% chance of doing nothing with at least one mode of attack, an 17% of suffering at least 1 wound, for a combined likelihood of neither shooting nor fighting of 3% of the time and suffering two wounds 0.75% of the time.

So we have two sets of rules, both of which affect a model's shooting and combat, both with the potential to cause two wounds, and both with the potential to fail partiall or totally. It's rather tidy.

So that's the low end. Obviously the Sorcerer is more reliable until he runs into psychic defense, and someone else can run the numbers for Eldar and Tyranid psychic defenses.

What about the top end?

Shooting wise there's 0.69 likelihood that both Warptime and Doombolt will go off, unmolested. So 3 shots, 2+ to hit re-roll failures, 4+ to wound Space Marines re-roll failures, and AP3. It's 0.83 likelihood that just Doombolt will go off unmolested. Which would be as above without the re-rolls.

A Deathscreamer would hit on 2+ and wound on 4+, with the weighting for variable shots (x/2+/4+/-):

6 = 2.49
5 = 2.075
4 = 1.66
3 = 1.24
2 = 0.83
1 = 0

So expected Space Marine Tactical casualties:

Doombolt: 1.03
Deathscreamer: (avg) 1.38
Warptime+Doombolt: 1.51

Of course between 18"-24" the Doombolt and Warptime+Doombolt combination levels out at 0.

Following a blasting, the Chaos character may have the chance to follow up with an assault.

The Sorcerer has 5 attacks, hitting on 3+ re-rolled, wounding on 4+ re-rolled, no saves if weighted by the 0.83 frequency of a successful uncontested Warptime. 0.17 for no re-rolls.

Active Warptime: 3.34
Inactive Warptime: 1.68

The Lord has [6, 7, 8, 9, 10] attacks hitting on 3+ and wounding on 4+, no saves, weighted as below:

0 attacks = 0
6 attacks = 2.01
7 attacks = 2.345
8 attacks = 2.68
9 attacks = 3.15
10 attacks = 3.35

Deathscreamer: 2.26
With Warptime: 3.06

Basically casting both Warptime and Doombolt together is about as reliable as using a Deathscreamer in both ranged and close combat, so long as there's no psychic interference, the psychic powers are safer to use, and you can get a higher return from the Deathscreamer.

Point being that the Sorcerer brings more utility and the ability for Instant Death via Force Weapon, and can take other options since there are plenty of other ways to get AP3 or AP2 firepower in the CSM list, where as the Sorcerer or DP is the only place to get things like Lash of Submission or other useful spells.

Also, the sorcerer still gets to fight if he fails a psychic test.

Yeah the lord is a bit iffy. Although i still run from time to time a Nurgle DP lord (usually with wings), as he goes pretty strong in CC always wounding on 4+and rerolling against pretty much most infantry (those that he isn't, he wounds on a 4+ anyway), although the other lord i run is a khorne lord with a powerfist/sword in a landraider with 9 Bezerkers, powerfist champ and plasma pistols if you feel like it. He simply works as extra muscle power, and doesn't bring anything else to the table.

Having said that, sometimes he brings a very very surprising amount of muscle...

Voodoo Boyz:

The Sorcerer brings more utility to the role of directly supporting the army, such. Likewise the Lord brings more utility to the role of indirectly supporting the army and doing so in an environment high in anti-psychic wargear.

Even without anti-psychic wargear you're better off with a Lord with the Mark of Slaanesh and a Blissgiver if you want to murder stuff with Instant Death, particularly since a Sorcerer with the Mark of Slaanesh has to choose whether to use Warptime or Force Weapon, and can't use the Lash of Submission in close combat.

That's not to say that the Lord is 'better' than the Sorcerer or more useful in general: they're each most useful for their own role, with the particular combination defined by the other elements in your army. After all, it's not a problem that the Lord with a Mark of Tzeentch adds to the AP3 firepower of the army because he's there to maximize the killing power of the army in both shooting and close combat.

willydstyle:

It's interesting that people bring up the fact that the failure of a psychic test does not prevent the Sorcerer from fighting in close combat. Consider, however, that the Sorcerer is just as likely to fail a psychic test as the Lord is likely to roll a 1 for his Daemon Weapon. If the Sorcerer fails a psychic test for Warptime, or the power is negated, then he's less likely to cause casualties.

If you're going to concentrate on the results that matter, the casualties, rather than the number of attacks, then a Chaos Lord with a Daemon Weapon that isn't the Bloodfeeder* should be expected to cause more casualties than a Sorcerer both with and without Warptime.

So if you're worried about your Lord with a Daemon Weapon rolling a 1 for his attacks, then you should equally be worried that the Sorcerer's attempt to cast a power will fail (Ld10 on 2D6 and 2+ on 1D6 are equal!) and that his attacks will miss. The floor for Sorcerers, Lords, and Daemon Princes is all the same: 0 casualties.

*Interesting note: While Lord, Sorcerers, and Daemon Princes all have utility, not all variants within those options are equal. Bloodfeeders are simply not as good as Deathscreamers, for example.


Automatically Appended Next Post:
Incidentally I thought I'd throw in the numbers for a Daemon Prince with Warptime in close combat for the sake of comparison. Against Tactical Space Marines with the charge that's five attacks hitting on 3+ re-rolling misses, wounding on 2+ re-rolling failures, no saves. Remember 0.83 to pass psychic test including the same chance of sustaining a wound from Perils of the Warp, and the same chances of anti-psychic wargear taking effect, as the Sorcerer.

Inactive Warptime: 2.78
Active Warptime: 4.31
With Warptime: 4.05

Also, I thought I might chuck a Disc of Tzeentch on top of those Deathscream calculations [please note I've corrected those calculations to reflect whether the psychic test goes off for Warptime]:

0 attacks = 0
7 attacks = 2.345
8 attacks = 2.68
9 attacks = 3.15
10 attacks = 3.35
11 attacks = 3.685

Deathscreamer+Disc of Tzeentch: 2.54

willydstyle wrote:

The sorc is better shooting, better in CC, and won't ever stand around like an idiot while his weapon tries to kill him.

Better in CC? Not sure I agree with that one.

I think the other use for a chaos lord that I saw that made some sense is a barebones HQ (something like a chaos lord /w combi-melta and that's it) so you can spend your points elsewhere. If you aren't running lash(which really isn't a smart choice anymore) it can be a great way to save points for our strong troop and heavy support sections.

i don't like sorc just because they are more points, worse CC, the ONLY non-fearless HQ, and the daemon weapons give up to 6 more +1 str. power weapon attacks which depending on the mark the lord is given can give from 12 attacks, instant death, poisoned, or a D6 AP3 assault weapon. sure you dont get a psychic attack, but a psychic-hood, or any other anti-psychic items might stop them cold. its rely up to personal choice if you like him or not. i just dont like sorc's.

@maxpower3579:

Similarly equippeed, the Sorc is cheaper than the lord.
Lord + PW is more points than a stock Sorc.

Fearless or non-fearless it doesn't matter for the IC most of the time because he/she/it will be with fearless or non-fearless units that care not.

In addition, for clarification: the +1Str is not in addition to a specific mark, it just looks like it's lumped in from the way it's written IMO.

you do mean a daemon weapon, right? because a power weapon wielding lord is just 5 points over the point cost of the sorc before he takes the mandatory psychic ability so he is more right of the bat, but with the DW he costs more, depending on the mark, but if the sorc takes MOT and a second psychic ability might just put you over the lords cost. again its all up to personal taste. i just feel that the lord is of more use than the sorc.

As for the equipment part, true, then you have 105 vs. 110, Lord hits better but libby has a better gun and can instant kill, pretty nice for the minor cost.

In addition, why the Sorc hate from the previous post of mine above? I mean, if you dont' like Sorc's you can always count as something else...

i just feel that the lord is of more use than the sorc.

Funny, cause as I see it, the Sorc brings more utility and alternate usage while the Lord is pretty one dimensional:

1. Combat muscle that is not needed.
2. Wound Sponge that a Sorc can do as well.
Of the DW only 3/5 are efficient.

Maybe Lords are just easier to apply...?

In the current Meta, the DP is good for one thing - taking fire away from your Rhinos.

With all the anti-psker stuff flying around (Eldar/Nids/SW/BA - i'm looking at you here) you have very little chance of getting lash to stick and with all the Mechanised Units about you have no targets until their transports have been destroyed.

Same goes for Sorcerers.

ATM, the Chaos Lord is the top choice, just for the amont of pain he brings.

Hmmmm, Two Lords of Nurgle with Plaguebringer with a unit of Plague Marines in a Land Raider. THAT'S NO MOON IT'S A SPACE STATION!!!

EDIT: Better yet - Typhus, Terminator Lord of Nurgle with Plaguebringer, with a unit of Plague Marines in a Land Raider. NOW THAT IS A DEATH STAR!!!

@Radiohazard:
True, there are many things that counter lash, but it doesn't change the fact it still does what it does well enough... and regardless of lash included or not, the CSM army will be focused on kicking the enemy out of their transports, so in that 'mech' regard, it should be moot.

Lash is cheap enough to throw in and use when the oppurtunity presents itself. The noobs play a game where they rely on lash, the competitive players that win tourneys win with the army and use lash as a tool when appropriate.

As for the eggs in two baskets, I've never been a fan of them. While Typhus is IMO a step down on the competitive scale.
You lose sweeping and you have more points dumped onto a guy that can still go stupid in combat and get fisted in the face.

Sanctjud wrote:Chaos Lords really only bring more combat muscle.
In general I'd say 77% or more of the list has combat muscle.

So the Chaos Lord is redudent.
In addition, his 'unique' option for Daemon Weapons is a double edged sword...paying for something that's not that spectacular with the chance of hurting/killing him makes it IMO poo.

So... he's just not as shiny or useful as the other two options. Combat muscle is NOT what the CSM army needs more of.

You can say he's too one-dimensional and offers no Army-Wide Bonuses, nor changes and FOCs...he does nothing pretty much...

Sanctjud has pretty much hit the nail on the head. Princes are more attractive for that slightly increase in points and sorcerers are favoured for the lash and can stay hidden in a rhino.

The lord isn't too bad, they add in combat and have a variety of builds. Its just other units can do what they do for better.

The Lord isn't even very good in close combat. His invul is 'stuck' at 5+ and he has no option for EW or FNP so he dies both to torrent and to high Strength or armor-ignoring attacks in the majority of cases. You can marginally improve his performance by upgrading equipment, but then you lose any attraction from the 'cheap HQ' perspective.

His attack characteristic isn't high enough to really be threatening to elite CC units or hordes.

His upgrade options, at least the ones needed to bring him up to something resembling par when compared to similar generic SM/SW/BA HQ options, are still rather mediocre and inflate his cost so that he becomes more expensive and still has no force multiplication factor.

The only 'Lord' type characters even worth bothering with are Kharn and Abaddon; in just about every other situation you've got a character that requires the same sort of babysitting as Kharn/Abby in terms of retinues and transports, but have far less combat yield once they get into a fight.

So what if the lord doesn't have EW or FNP, he's not a Space Wolf. Most army commanders don't have EW or FNP unless they are a special character, a DP or a SW Lord.

Lets look at these two beauties:

CSM Terminator Lord = 170.
MON, Plaguebringer, Combi-Melta.

Ok, this guy attacks at the same time as most MEQ characters and wounds on a 4+ like a MEQ character, but has a distinct advantage - the Daemon Weapon adding D6 Attacks. The fact he could fail shouldn't bother you as it is (as I have said before) only a 1/6 chance. To get results you have to put effort or risk in. This is the risk and the fact that this character can murder anything he sets his mind to is the result.

CSM Terminator Lord = 155
MOS, Blissgiver, Combi-Melta.

This is a different kind of monster. First of all, he is hitting before most characters at his initiative of 6. Coupled with the fact that if he wounds a model and it has no INV save or doesn't have EW, it is brown bread dead. Initiative 6 is a massive boost here.

And for those who think that I ignore the Sorcerer entry...

CSM Sorcerer Terminator Lord = 150
MOS, Warptime, Combi-Melta, Force Weapon.

For five points cheaper and a lot less risk than the other two, you can have this little beauty. There is a downside however, as you can only use one psychic power per turn and you can't use the Force Weapon's power in the same turn as Warptime, so it is more difficult to pull off an insta-kill.

The Lord is not a bad character. As Sanctjud said, you have to find the synergies to make him shine.

Are we taking into account the sorcerer MUST take mark of Tzeentch for both warptime AND doombolt to come into effect? Therefore instakill arguments are obsolete, unless he stays in combat for more than one turn. And with a Mark of Tzeentch, he's probz gonna cost more points. While we're at it, can anyone give me advice for my chaos lord? I run him in power armour with deathscreamer in a mechanised melta spam army. gonna get a termie lord...any ideas?

Nope.


Termy Lord isn't a huge upgrade...it's just pretty much:

Pros: Better Armor.
TL Bolter
Deepstriking.

Cons: Points...
Loss of Sweeping.
Loss of extra attack unless 2 Claws.
Can't get in rhino.
Takes up 2 spaces in LR.
No frag or Krak grens...
No acces to wings/jump pack/bike/steed.

Other than that laundry list...

It doesn't matter about the loss of attacks as he will gain +D6.

@Sanctjud- did not mean for the post to come out sounding like it did, noticed it after rereading it.

the termi lord- depends on who you plan on running him with, and what mark you want. as much as i like MON the DW for that is just horrible but the others are good for certain moments.