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Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

I drop from the Dakka ether to chime in on a personal pet subject of mine.

Having been a historical wargamer for many years now, I was weened on fully painted armies. Bringing an unpainted force to the table seemed to me to be almost boorish behavior back in the day. I felt very strongly that half of the interest in miniatures was not necessarily beating the opponent to a pulp, but the discourse and the grandiosity... the spectacle if you will. If someone played in an event and called the historicity "fluff" it would immediately raise a cacophony of gags, gasps, old men having heart-attacks and most tragic of all, yes it's true, spilled beer.

I would more often than not rudely ignore or chastise gamers because of the state of their miniatures. I appreciated almost any paint job though. Any effort to represent a historical unit was welcome as it showed that the individual enjoyed the hobby as I did. But darnit if you showed your face to an event with naked metal the gloves were off. Half of the fun is seeing a miniature battlefield... why else do we play historicals? I don't wanna see someone show up with a pink dinosaur (let alone an unpainted pink dinosaur!) exclaiming I need to suspend disbelief because it's really the Duke of Wellington.

Yes, I know it was cruel and inhuman, color me THAT guy.

To all those egos I destroyed over the years, I sincerely apologize. I hope you eventually came back to miniatures...

I have come to realize that GW games, Warhammer 40k in particular, are prone to rules of the month syndrome. You don't often find this happening in the historical world, though we DO have the 'semi-annual' rule SYSTEM of the month syndrome (historical players will understand). I can't imagine a friend of mine running up to me with that venomous glare "I've got the NEW German Codex. Your Imperial Japanese are MINE!"

Nope, just doesn't happen. Umm, unless you play FOW in which case all bets are off. *cue fingernails on the chalkboard*

Pure marketing genious.

Some would say, and they'd be right, why paint a very expensive model only to find your build is flawed in some way necessitating a sale perhaps or a trade? After all, who would want to trade for that $50 dollar PLASTIC dreadnaught after you painted it with a Q-Tip?

Not I says me...

With that in mind and the transient nature of many 40k gamers (I call 'em Codex Nomads... or Codex Creeps affectionately), we must realize that our fellow's army as it stands will morph for many reasons. If we forced all gamers to paint the minis or not play our base would disintegrate or devolve into a ubiquitously popular colors schema acceptable to all palates. I for one do not want to face off against the "unoffensive apartment color marines", the "Avocado Angels of death" or the notorious "Pastel Tyranids". In a hugely expensive game rife with contant updates to army lists I therefore cut 'em a lot of slack so I don't have to play by myself.

I will, however, whip out my trusty hand-torch (no, not a flashlight) and your mini if it's still in a package. I have my limits.

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

I've literally cringed at some of the paintjobs I've seen. In that sense, sometimes I prefer bare plastic/metal or a spray-primed army - at least the figures are recognizable and I can appreciate the sculpts. That said, I applaud the effort, if there's any indication that effort was applied (a crusty glob of garish colors is far more permissible from a 7 year old who wants to play armies with daddy than from an adult that says "I can't paint" without ever trying to improve).

As to the OP, I'd always prefer pictures in a battle report for the simple fact that they provide clarity that words cannot (without writing a dozen dry pages of coordinates after carefully marking an unsightly grid system on the table). Sure, nicely painted armies and terrain make it prettier, but if I'm reading a batrep then I want to know how the game went down. If I want to see impressive paintjobs, I'll go to the Dakka gallery or CMON and I'll look at the highest rated images. A bit of bare plastic won't cause me to have an aneurysm. Heck, I'm so busy between school, work, and the various and sundry responsibilities of daily life that I can count my fully painted models on one hand (hey, I'm trying! I need to use my toes, too, if you count WIPs ).

Kanluwen wrote:

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

Sorry man, "time managment" goes right out the window when children are involved,a three year old could care less if your "army men" need painting.

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

Sorry man, "time management" goes right out the window when children are involved,a three year old could care less if your "army men" need painting.

Do you have time to drink, or watch TV late night, etc?

If so:
You've got time to paint/model.

I absolutly hate playing with unpainted miniatures and would preferr it immensely that my opponent have similer standards, but i am not going to refuse a game because you don't paint your models.

i realise that just because i can paint a warhound in 4 hours doesn't mean other people can.


one guy in my group has 4k points of SWs and only about 1/10th are completely painted, but he is making progress and that is great(they are turning out really good too)

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

Sorry man, "time management" goes right out the window when children are involved,a three year old could care less if your "army men" need painting.

Do you have time to drink, or watch TV late night, etc?

If so:
You've got time to paint/model.

Its called different people having different priorities.

Learn other's priorities and preference exists.

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

Sorry man, "time management" goes right out the window when children are involved,a three year old could care less if your "army men" need painting.

Do you have time to drink, or watch TV late night, etc?

If so:
You've got time to paint/model.

Its called different people having different priorities.

Learn others' priorities and preferences exist.

Take your own advice there sweetheart.

Some of us don't choose to spend time drinking or playing video games in our precious free time, but instead read books or paint our models.

There's really no excuse for unpainted models. Everyone has some form of free time. If you choose not to use it painting? That's not "I have no time to paint!".

That's "I choose not to use my free time painting".

Kanluwen wrote:
Take your own advice there sweetheart.

Some of us don't choose to spend time drinking or playing video games in our precious free time, but instead read books or paint our models.

There's really no excuse for unpainted models. Everyone has some form of free time. If you choose not to use it painting? That's not "I have no time to paint!".

That's "I choose not to use my free time painting".

If you truly respect other's preference and priorities , we wouldnt need to constantly see
condescending posts from you like

Kanluwen wrote:
Time management.

Learn to use it.

Treat others with respect and politeness or stop posting.

Whether someone truly have "time" or not is purely subjective
To one that enjoys painting they can see the 3 hour as "time" to do the painting they enjoy.

To ones that dont like the hobby aspect , they see the 3 hour as another "chore" hence the 3 hours of
"free time" is no longer "Free"

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

Sorry man, "time management" goes right out the window when children are involved,a three year old could care less if your "army men" need painting.

Do you have time to drink, or watch TV late night, etc?

If so:
You've got time to paint/model.

Well,I can watch TV lying in bed and basicly not paying a great deal of attention to it,neither of wich I can apply to painting.
My main point however was that once children become part of your life "time management" is at best a "template",but your children,for the most part,are going to throw a million monkey wrenches into your "well thought out plans",it's part of their job. .

Now,to adress the OPs points,I myself prefer fielding/playing against fully painted armies,but I don't come unglued if an opponent has some unpainted units...I do howver draw the line at units/minis still in the packaging,I mean,you gotta draw the line somewhere.

I wanna see a battle report where EVERYTHING is still MIB
Surprised GW doesn't encourage this sort of thing. You could play test a unit, and say NAH doesn't fit my play style, and pop it back on the shelf no harm done.

Think Ugavine has it summed up

Always good to see well painted models, but sometimes you need to just let things ride a wee bit.

Kanwellan
I commend the way you choose to spend time constructively. However, it is not everyone's priority as it is yours.
And life tends to get in the way of hobbies. I have free time right now but there are reasons why I ain't hobbying.

LunaHound wrote:There are hobbyist and there are gamers.

Hobbyist have the patience to finish painting their army before putting it on the table to play because their focus was on the hobby itself.

A gamer's focus was never about painting the army , its about putting the mini together and weeee game.

Different people , different priorities . I respect them both

Luna pretty well summed it up for me.

Alot have summed it up already. Not everyone likes to paint. Now i agree that there should definitely be attempts made but some people could either think their paintjobs suck or dont want to spend every waking moment of their life painting little men because it takes them awhile to paint one model.
I had this problem when i first started some of my first models took me 4-5 hours to paint one single infantry model. That really burns you out when you keep looking at it and keep seeing something wrong with it. It drove me nuts until i finally figured out how to properly paint and my painting time went way down. Now it only takes me 45 minutes but you have to just understand that not everyone enjoys painting models.

FITZZ wrote:
Well,I can watch TV lying in bed and basically not paying a great deal of attention to it,neither of which I can apply to painting.
My main point however was that once children become part of your life "time management" is at best a "template",but your children,for the most part,are going to throw a million monkey wrenches into your "well thought out plans",it's part of their job. .

Now,to address the OPs points,I myself prefer fielding/playing against fully painted armies,but I don't come unglued if an opponent has some unpainted units...I do however draw the line at units/minis still in the packaging,I mean,you gotta draw the line somewhere.

Oh, I know that time management is at best a guideline

Nobody, however, ever has really said they'll refuse a game against an unpainted army(barring circumstances which I'll mention after this paragraph) though. This argument comes up alot from the folks who tend towards the whole "But I'm in college and I'm partying and I have to study too, I have no free time!" or "I'm in high school, and in between video games and watching TV I just don't have the free time to be painting!".

The only time it really comes up is if there's a tournament or an event where painted armies are a requirement--and that's when things get really fuzzy in my view.

Do you really want to see some guy who basically just slapped 3 colors on so he doesn't get disqualified for being unpainted?

Would you rather see someone who shows up to a local RT with everything basecoated and fully modelled(at the least), and then the next he shows up with detail work and basing done, etc or the whole "Rawr! These are my bling marines!" style of 3 color rush jobs?

Like was earlier said:
It's nice having fully painted armies taking to the field, but there tends to be a bit more leeway given when playing amongst a closely knit gaming group rather than being a tourney power-'dex hopper.

I take wwaaaaaaayyyyy too long to paint my minis, so I often field unpainted or partially painted units. I'm mostly in this game for the strategy, but i also enjoy painting & modeling, which is partially why I take too long. i don't want my guys looking like crap just so that I can have a fully painted army. I am sorry If you have a problem with that.

I feel like I should add that the painting/modeling aspect of 40k is my favorite part,I do enjoy painting /kit bashing/etc quite a bit.
However,children & "time managment" aside,there are times when I would much rather go interact with "real people" (go to dinner,the movies,concerts or clubs)when I have free time,over sitting at my desk playing with my "little men".

FITZZ wrote: I feel like I should add that the painting/modeling aspect of 40k is my favorite part,I do enjoy painting /kit bashing/etc quite a bit.
However,children & "time managment" aside,there are times when I would much rather go interact with "real people" (go to dinner,the movies,concerts or clubs)when I have free time,over sitting at my desk playing with my "little men".

I agree , i only do the model aspect of warhammer and dont game at all.

Under such behavior i should be with the crowd that is against unpainted miniatures.

However i know what i enjoy or like is irrelevant , because i acknowledge and respect the preference of others.

Thus until the day Warhammer is listed only as a Hobby without the "wargame" label , i will continue to acknowledge and respect
the existence of the gamers in Warhammer.

/end

LunaHound wrote:

FITZZ wrote: I feel like I should add that the painting/modeling aspect of 40k is my favorite part,I do enjoy painting /kit bashing/etc quite a bit.
However,children & "time managment" aside,there are times when I would much rather go interact with "real people" (go to dinner,the movies,concerts or clubs)when I have free time,over sitting at my desk playing with my "little men".

I agree , i only do the model aspect of warhammer and dont game at all.

Under such behavior i should be with the crowd that is against unpainted miniatures.

However i know what i enjoy or like is irrelevant , because i acknowledge and respect the preference of others.

Thus until the day Warhammer is listed only as a Hobby without the "wargame" label , i will continue to acknowledge and respect
the existence of the gamers in Warhammer.

/end

Nicely said Luna.
Each person has their own way of enjoying the hobby,and that's exactly as it should be.

The OP would hate my ass. The only army I have that is fully painted is Uruk-Hai. I have had my dark Angels for for nearly three years now and I still have a squad a rhino and some random dread parts to paint. I absolutely hate painting. I would rather cut my nails poorly for a month and deal with the ingrown gak that comes out of that than actually attempt to paint my miniatures more than a basecoat and wash. I used to let my little Brother do it, as he actually loves to paint and will bug me to paint my models when he has nothing else to do. But he stopped doing that now so I have to go and find some green spray paint.

Kanluwen wrote:

LunaHound wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

FITZZ wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

skelerate wrote:Absolutely USED to agree with the OP. that said, dude have a wife and 2 kids under 7 and see if you can field a fully painted 2k at a monthly, never mind weekly, game and stay married or a parent for more than 3k worth of painting.
40k is fun but it ain't life!

Time management.

Learn to use it.

Sorry man, "time management" goes right out the window when children are involved,a three year old could care less if your "army men" need painting.

Do you have time to drink, or watch TV late night, etc?

If so:
You've got time to paint/model.

Its called different people having different priorities.

Learn others' priorities and preferences exist.

Take your own advice there sweetheart.

Some of us don't choose to spend time drinking or playing video games in our precious free time, but instead read books or paint our models.

There's really no excuse for unpainted models. Everyone has some form of free time. If you choose not to use it painting? That's not "I have no time to paint!".

That's "I choose not to use my free time painting".

This post really annoyed me and I think Kanluwen you make a stupid point. Most people especially parents have more things in their life than one hobby activity. They have a need to balance their family life with their professional and social life and unless your wife and kids play 40K then you painting and gaming excludes them. Of course there is an excuse for unpainted models it is not a matter of prioritising your time. If you only have two hours of free time per week you are not going to get a huge amount done and when your three year old toddles up to you with a book and wants you to read to them you would have to be a total a***hole to say 'No Daddy's playing with his toys'.

You need to wake up to real life and realise that a lot of people who play 40K aren't just school/college kids who use the excuse they had to go out drinking. Some of us go to war for real six months at a time and when we come back and have missed seeing our kids take their first steps then you realise what time priority is!

Your argument is as idiotic as it is immature. Grow up

Ed_Bodger wrote:
This post really annoyed me and I think Kanluwen you make a stupid point. Most people especially parents have more things in their life than one hobby activity. They have a need to balance their family life with their professional and social life and unless your wife and kids play 40K then you painting and gaming excludes them. Of course there is an excuse for unpainted models it is not a matter of prioritising your time. If you only have two hours of free time per week you are not going to get a huge amount done and when your three year old toddles up to you with a book and wants you to read to them you would have to be a total a***hole to say 'No Daddy's playing with his toys'.

You need to wake up to real life and realise that a lot of people who play 40K aren't just school/college kids who use the excuse they had to go out drinking. Some of us go to war for real six months at a time and when we come back and have missed seeing our kids take their first steps then you realise what time priority is!

Your argument is as idiotic as it is immature. Grow up

Don't your kids have a bed time?

I know plenty of married gamers with kids who somehow manage to get their painting time in. That leads me to believe one of two things. Either you don't like painting, but don't want to admit that, or feel some guilt about not doing it, and are trying to mask this by ranting about not having time... or you're really really bad at this whole "life balance" thing that you mention above. Because life balance includes making some time for yourself.

I'm an older gamer. Most of my gaming group are married and at least half have kids, and none of them have problems finding painting time (or gaming time, for that matter). In short, your argument is simply BS. If you don't like painting, man up and say you don't like painting. Don't blame your failings on your kids.

Wouldnt it depend on what type of work they do?

I know bunch of adults are always so busy with their work they dont even have time to eat ( some of them even get ulcers from not having time to eat lunch ).
They would go from client to client and the only
time they have time for themselves are between their destination points or if possible they discuss the meeting in a restaurant.

They wouldnt even return home for dinner because when they want to seal a deal they would treat their client .
Then they return home drunk and sometimes even too tired to shower.

Not everyone have the same job , not everyone have the same extra time.

Busy people are busy. Why would you guys not believe that?

Redbeard , Say Ed_Bodger is one of those busy people , and with his last ounce of energy at the end of the day .
he could chose to spend that with his children , vs spending it on painting.

Its not fair to say he is just making excuses!

Ok lets talk about life balance.
Some line of work isnt your typical pay cheque job.
They literally shape the company with their own 2 hands.

What if they want to make extra money to insure their children can get into good university
What if they want to make extra money to buy gift to their significant others as sorry they have been so busy

Because some job are solely depending on reputation and fierce competition between rival companies that also want to
make deals , its pretty much you snooze you lose.

Competitive companies with unpace-able schedule literally prosper or get destroyed by competition if you dont take the opportunity while you can.
"life balance" and " time management " ? Its nothing but a luxury they can only dream of.

My father tried to balance his companies with staying with me , when he used to visit me in canada , the 3 months he isnt there to take care of things in person,
everything gets into chaos. Competence and experience are vital. Cant rely on luck to keep things in good shape.

Hence , a) there are people with type of work that they need to take opportunities while they can
and
there are b) people with type of work that is steady schedule , everyday generally follow the same routine.

Please respect the existence of Type A .

Luna, the truth is that life does not normally fall into such simple and easy dichotomies. There are people who have such busy and stressful lives that they cannot afford time to themselves or hobbies, but those people aren't playing or collecting 40k in the first place.

While I think Kanluwen oversimplified and was excessively harsh, the core point remains, and I believe Redbeard is 100% correct. As an adult, even with kids, one of the core skills needed to have a tolerable life is time management. And any person who has sufficient free time to collect & play with WH models, and to post on here, DOES have sufficient time to paint if they so choose.

Mannahnin wrote:Luna, the truth is that life does not normally fall into such simple and easy dichotomies. There are people who have such busy and stressful lives that they cannot afford time to themselves or hobbies, but those people aren't playing or collecting 40k in the first place.

While I think Kanluwen oversimplified and was excessively harsh, the core point remains, and I believe Redbeard is 100% correct. As an adult, even with kids, one of the core skills needed to have a tolerable life is time management. And any person who has sufficient free time to collect & play with WH models, and to post on here, DOES have sufficient time to paint if they so choose.

The examples i gave are not exactly fitting because i was trying to make a point.
However , even if they do have a tiny bit more time to play a game once in a blue moon , that stilll doesnt mean they have enough spare time
to work on hobby when ever they feel like.

The time spent on painting could be spent on playing for example.
Even if its maybe 4 hours per week in the weekend.


Hope you understand what i mean. There simply is nothing to debate about on this matter.
We are simply discussing the varying degree of one's spare time. Everyone is different.

Yes he is as usual excessively rude , makes me want to slap him on the face to teach him abit on manners

LunaHound wrote:
However , even if they do have a tiny bit more time to play a game once in a blue moon , that stilll doesnt mean they have enough spare time to work on hobby when ever they feel like.

The time spent on painting could be spent on playing for example.
Even if its maybe 4 hours per week in the weekend.

I agree. If they have a tiny bit of time, they could prefer to play the game, instead of paint. And I wouldn't think poorly of them. That's their choice, it's their time, and if someone prefers to game than paint, that's fine. But if that is the case, say, "I prefer to spend my free time gaming", not, "I don't have any free time because I have kids".

See the difference? The first statement takes personal responsibility for ones own decisions. The second statement implies that you have no choice in the matter and blames your children for your own choices.

Redbeard wrote:

LunaHound wrote:
However , even if they do have a tiny bit more time to play a game once in a blue moon , that stilll doesnt mean they have enough spare time to work on hobby when ever they feel like.

The time spent on painting could be spent on playing for example.
Even if its maybe 4 hours per week in the weekend.

I agree. If they have a tiny bit of time, they could prefer to play the game, instead of paint. And I wouldn't think poorly of them. That's their choice, it's their time, and if someone prefers to game than paint, that's fine. But if that is the case, say, "I prefer to spend my free time gaming", not, "I don't have any free time because I have kids".

See the difference? The first statement takes personal responsibility for ones own decisions. The second statement implies that you have no choice in the matter and blames your children for your own choices.

I see the difference , however i looked at it from another perspective.

That he chose to spend his valuable time with his kids , instead of painting.
Which is what i think he conveyed ( well thats what i read )

I believe this part of the sentence shows he is choosing to prioritize his time with his children.
and NOT blaming the lack of time on children.

Some of us go to war for real six months at a time and when we come back and have missed seeing our kids take their first steps then you realise what time priority is!

You're both correct but talking about different things. Luna is using a specific example while Redbeard is speaking in general terms.

For Luna
Ed_Bodger, alluded to the fact that he is military and is away from home for 6 months at a time. I would certainly respect his desire to spend as much available time with his family and if the odd free moment presents itself, I wouldn't hold it against him if he chose to play the game instead of painting.... I mean, most of us do play the game, right? It is a game after all; I know I would rather put the little army men to the use I purchased them for rather than spend what time I had painting them.

For Redbeard
Your point is equally valid, in a general sense; most people will have available time regardless of life commitments. Personally, I'll do a bit of painting during the week and then play on a Saturday evening a couple of times per month.

LunaHound wrote:
That he chose to spend his valuable time with his kids , instead of painting.
Which is what i think he conveyed ( well thats what i read )

Which is cool - to an extent.

Kids need to go to bed at some point. It's just as irresponsible, as a parent, to keep your children up because you want to spend time with them, as it is to not spend time with them. Any parent who says they need, or want, to spend their every waking moment with their children is lying, and if they act on this desire, they're hurting their children as well. And this is part of that whole life-balance thing. Young children need their sleep, and should leave the parents several hours in the evening where the parents can pursue whatever non-child activities they want. Older children are unlikely to want to spend all their time with their parents, and need to spend time socializing with other children - again creating time in which a parent can do non-child activities.

I'm not saying that someone should feel bad that they don't spend this time painting. But they should acknowledge that this is a choice they're making. It's not a state of existence forced upon them by their children. Own your choices, don't make excuses for them.

Yes Red, i know there are lazy people ( especially like me ) that cant be bothered to paint. And yes there are people that make excuses to validate not painting it due to laziness. Im not disagreeing with you there.

I just dont think Ed is like that. Hence i felt that the little bit of hostility against him isnt fair for him. Its almost like he is been grouped with the lazy excuse type.