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KamikazeCanuck wrote:As for that old codex. consider them retconed out. That was before the HH books when things were more mysterious. All legions are accounted for now and there is only 18.
The Black Library guys have said on numerous occasions that their novels aren't intended to be 'cannon'
Nothing published in any of the codexes so far has contradicted what was printed in Codex Ultramarines.
I like the Female Primarch Idea. Could work. They could have gone rouge BEFORE the heresy, so they were erased to keep away the idea of rebellion. Obviously that failed.
Happygrunt wrote: They could have gone rouge BEFORE the heresy
They were erased from Imperial Records because they wore make-up?
For what it's worth, the 2nd and 11th were deleted from Imperial Records after the Heresy. Which lends weight to the 'fought on Horus' side and were completely destroyed' theory.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/11 23:47:08
I just don't think 11 out of 20 Legions turn traitor. They always say "fully half". They could have destroyed each other but more likely there was a problem with the Gene-seed and those legions never really took off. The Emperor's Children were also almost destroyed like that.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I just don't think 11 out of 20 Legions turn traitor. They always say "fully half".
And of those for which there are records, fully half turned traitor.
They could have destroyed each other but more likely there was a problem with the Gene-seed and those legions never really took off.
Except that they participated in the Great Crusade...
And if they had simply died out, what would be the point of erasing all record of them? And why do so after the Heresy, rather than when it actually happened?
Whatever the story winds up being, if GW ever get around to telling it, those two Legions have to have done something to warrant being erased from history.
No, I think they just took part in the Terran part of the Great Crusade. All the Legions existed: that's why they're numbered but I think The Emperor needed the Primarchs to replenish losses for 3 of his Legions due defects. He found one, Fulgrim, but the other two could not be saved.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think The Emperor needed the Primarchs to replenish losses for 3 of his Legions due defects. He found one, Fulgrim, but the other two could not be saved.
Toeko wrote:I mean hell we could say that the other two were so amazingly badass that they imploded due to awesomeness. anything could explain them.
One of the Chaos Gods Stole them and are keeping them "hostage"?
They had AIDs?
None of which would be reason to remove all record of them.
If you consider the word "flawed" and think about how the Sisters of Battle are supposed to be sort of like weaker female SPace Marines, the possiblility that #2 is female makes sense. They were found on a distant world IIRC, so it would make sense.
As for #11, one could infer that he was so terrible and cruel that he was wiped from the records entirely.
H.B.M.C wrote:
I mean just look at the recent bumbling acts of marketing childishness we've seen in just the past year! Iron Man 2. All the trailers, previews, interviews, Comi-Con panels, tie-ins with burger joints and whatnot. None of that should have happened. The real way to market a movie like Iron Man 2 is to not tell anyone you're making it until a week before its release and then BAM, you hit 'em with the movie. You get everyone to sign NDA's that are punishable by forfeiture of all the person's assets and/or the death penalty, you hire hitmen to kill journalists that sneak in to take photos, you threaten local towns with forced sterilisation should they blab that something's filming in their town, and then then you say nothing about the movie at all and, in fact, even go so far as to deny you're making it.
Avatar. Another great example. All that hype about it being the most expensive movie ever made, the genius of the special effects, and so on. James Cameron should have denied he ever intended to make a movie after Titanic and then zzzzzzzzaaaaaaappp, Avatar - Realease Date - 1 week from now!
That's the real way to market. None of this preview/trailer/hype bull gak. You say nothing, you deny everything, and you leave everyone guessing as to what the hell you're doing until you physically are no longer able to.
Think of just how much money Avatar and Iron Man 2 could have made if we'd never known they existed until they were already in theatres? Hundreds more. Possibly even hundreds of billions more. Why is GW the only one who gets this?
Disposable Hero wrote:and think about how the Sisters of Battle are supposed to be sort of like weaker female SPace Marines,
...except that they're not.
Sisters of Battle are nothing whatsoever to do with Space Marines. They're female because the Imperial Church isn't allowed to have 'men under arms' and they wear power armour because the church can afford it, and because they want their military force to be better than the Guard.
They're not Space Marines, and have none of the Marine enhancements.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think The Emperor needed the Primarchs to replenish losses for 3 of his Legions due defects. He found one, Fulgrim, but the other two could not be saved.
Toeko wrote:I mean hell we could say that the other two were so amazingly badass that they imploded due to awesomeness. anything could explain them.
One of the Chaos Gods Stole them and are keeping them "hostage"?
They had AIDs?
None of which would be reason to remove all record of them.
ya never know, AIDs is serious stuff lol
Disposable Hero wrote:
and think about how the Sisters of Battle are supposed to be sort of like weaker female SPace Marines,
Sisters of Battle were never to be compared to Space marines, they are literally Nuns with guns.
earlier I had mentioned the Sisters of Silence but as far as I am aware they are a completely separate. and they are supposed to be extremely Badass
insaniak wrote:The Black Library guys have said on numerous occasions that their novels aren't intended to be 'cannon'
Have you got a quote for that? Sorry, but I've never heard that before. Marc Gascoigne from the Black Library has had the opposite to say, specifically that "anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex";
Keep in mind Warhammer and Warhammer 40,000 are worlds where half truths, lies, propaganda, politics, legends and myths exist. The absolute truth which is implied when you talk about "canonical background" will never be known because of this. Everything we know about these worlds is from the viewpoints of people in them which are as a result incomplete and even sometimes incorrect. The truth is mutable, debatable and lost as the victors write the history...
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumor that may or may not have any truth behind it.
Let's put it another way: anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex... and at least as crammed full of rumors, distorted legends and half-truths.
I think the real problem is that the topic as a "big question" doesn't matter. It's all as true as everything else, and all just as false/half-remembered/sort-of-true. The answer you are seeking is "Yes and no" or perhaps "Sometimes". And that's the end of it.
Now, ask us some specifics, eg can Black Templars spit acid and we can answer that one, and many others. But again note the answer may well be "sometimes" or "it varies" or "depends".
But is it all true? Yes and no. Even though some of it is plainly contradictory? Yes and no. Do we deliberately contradict, retell with differences? Yes we do. Is the newer the stuff the truer it is? Yes and no. In some cases is it true that the older stuff is the truest? Yes and no. Maybe and sometimes. Depends and it varies.
It's a decaying universe without GPS and galaxy-wide communication, where precious facts are clung to long after they have been changed out of all recognition. Read A Canticle for Liebowitz by Walter M Miller, about monks toiling to hold onto facts in the aftermath of a nuclear war; that nails it.
KamikazeCanuck wrote:I think The Emperor needed the Primarchs to replenish losses for 3 of his Legions due defects. He found one, Fulgrim, but the other two could not be saved.
Toeko wrote:I mean hell we could say that the other two were so amazingly badass that they imploded due to awesomeness. anything could explain them.
One of the Chaos Gods Stole them and are keeping them "hostage"?
They had AIDs?
None of which would be reason to remove all record of them.
Dude everything in the rulebook has an inquisitorial purge on it. If a guy mentions he like the colour of an aliens hat there's a big stamp on it from the Inquisition saying. "Purged. Author executed. His whole family executes and everyone he know and everyone he talked to ever. Purge purge purge!" It doesn't take alot for the inquisition to sweep in.
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Commander Endova wrote:I don't know why there's an argument about this, still. Abnett all but confirmed that they were left vacant so players could invent their own legions.
Second question. Skip to 1:12.
He says some stuff at first about how they may come up with a definitive answer eventually, but as it stands, they're a gap for the players to fill.
Agreed. It very obvious. However now a days when we're getting so many answers from our new-fangled Bl Books and Codexes hey should cave and just tell the story.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/12 16:55:40
insaniak wrote:The Black Library guys have said on numerous occasions that their novels aren't intended to be 'cannon'
Have you got a quote for that? Sorry, but I've never heard that before. Marc Gascoigne from the Black Library has had the opposite to say, specifically that "anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex";
I think that may have been the quote that I was thinking of, although it would appear I misremembered it slightly. The important part, though, is this:
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumor that may or may not have any truth behind it.
So, essentially, the novels are 'canon'... but may or may not be chronicling 'actual' events.
I had thought there was a statement from someone at the BL, answering a query about C.S. Goto specifically, to the effect that the background books are canon whilst novels and the like are not, but I can't find it now.
insaniak wrote:The Black Library guys have said on numerous occasions that their novels aren't intended to be 'cannon'
Have you got a quote for that? Sorry, but I've never heard that before. Marc Gascoigne from the Black Library has had the opposite to say, specifically that "anything with a 40K logo on it is as official as any Codex";
I think that may have been the quote that I was thinking of, although it would appear I misremembered it slightly. The important part, though, is this:
Here's our standard line: Yes it's all official, but remember that we're reporting back from a time where stories aren't always true, or at least 100% accurate. If it has the 40K logo on it, it exists in the 40K universe. Or it was a legend that may well have happened. Or a rumor that may or may not have any truth behind it.
So, essentially, the novels are 'canon'... but may or may not be chronicling 'actual' events.
I had thought there was a statement from someone at the BL, answering a query about C.S. Goto specifically, to the effect that the background books are canon whilst novels and the like are not, but I can't find it now.
Yes, I think its wrong to Dismiss BL stuff as not Cannon. HH in particular has the most editorial oversight of anything they've made. They put the line out there for "little" things like Horus having a storm bolter....or anything written by C.S. Goto.
I was always under the impression at least untill the late 90's that one of the missing primarch was actually Sigmar, he of the Empires fantasy godhood status.
And that the fantasy and 40k time lines were running at the same time so any whfb games were taking part after the HH, with the warp gates at either pole ect. and the dark prince being a full god.
or did i just dream that?
far too many points and still painting...
74th @ Caledonian Uprising 2011
104th @ Caledonian Uprising 2014 (and STILL best General in Pure Codex:IG)
Back when 40K was first created, there was a mention in one of the books that the WHFB world was a world in the 40K universe, cut off from the rest of the galaxy by warp storms. This was by way of explanation for the similarities between the two settings.
Since then, the studio has gradually moved to separate the two. They occasionally throw in 'linking' bits and pieces for fun (the BL Chaos books, scifi wargear in the WHFB Lustria campaign, and the like) but the official line from the studio since 2nd edition has been that the two settings are unrelated. However popular the theory may be online, Sigmar is not a Primarch.
This message was edited 1 time. Last update was at 2010/05/13 03:16:09
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Anyway ya, going theory right now is that the Warhammer world is just some planet somewhere in The Eye of Terror.
No. Again, that was the original story. It's not the current idea.
Quirky rumor of the day: The Lizardmen are the Old Ones! (or at least their descedants) They need a 40K army stat!
Not so much a rumour as more old fluff. The Slann, back when they were actually a part of the 40K background, were sometimes referred to as the Old Ones. This is in contrast to the WHFB version, where the Slann were servants of the Old Ones.
far too many points and still painting...
