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Is there a place here on Dakka for us to post the results of our experiences with different vendors? You always see these threads about different painting companies and online kit sellers; would be nice if we had a stickied thread or something where we could post up about how everythign went. Admittedly, such a thing would stand a high chance of devolving tino flame wars, but Dakka usu. has their flamers hot and ready anyway.

there is that 'painting service' sticky thread in swap shop

GMM, have you ever considered adding to your staff? The reason BTP does so much is he has a crew working for him. If you added even 1 person who was close to your skill level or even trainable, it'd be a great improvement to your bottomline.

It would probably be hard for them to reach the same quality, though- there have been some unsatisfied customers for BTP, but not that I've seen for GMM since he does it all himself.

True, but he could have someone else do all the flash removal, mold-lines, priming and other prep-work and focus entirely on doing an awesome paint-job, yes?

RiTides wrote:It would probably be hard for them to reach the same quality, though- there have been some unsatisfied customers for BTP, but not that I've seen for GMM since he does it all himself.

I think very highly of Shawn @ BTP, and don't mean this as a slight at ALL.
The problems people have with BTP are universal, regardless of painter. BTP has a painting "style" that some people just cannot stand. So, to be fair, the people who complain about one painter would probably complain about all of them, because they all use the same style.

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:True, but he could have someone else do all the flash removal, mold-lines, priming and other prep-work and focus entirely on doing an awesome paint-job, yes?

Quite true.
The only problem with that is compensation. He has to decide how much to pay the person. He also has to figure out precisely how much the person helps him speed up his completion time.
As much as I'd LOVE GMM to have a swifter turn-around (LOL), the fact is that it would probably be too difficult for him, as a 1 man operation, to find someone up to par for the high standards he's established.

Just my opinion.

Eric

The extra bodies won't automatically help either. Didn't Painter 6479(?) go under after sub-contracting?

Adding employee's means adding LOTS and LOTS of paperwork to your weakly routine.

Its more than just tracking hours and writing checks, you've got Unemployment to track, workers comp insurance, any state regulations needed to be followed.

Seriously 1 employee translates into about 3 hours of work a week just doing paperwork.

Now you could lease the employee from an employee leasing service and avoid it, but now your paying someone to do the paperwork.

R3con wrote:Adding employee's means adding LOTS and LOTS of paperwork to your weakly routine.

Its more than just tracking hours and writing checks, you've got Unemployment to track, workers comp insurance, any state regulations needed to be followed.

Seriously 1 employee translates into about 3 hours of work a week just doing paperwork.

Now you could lease the employee from an employee leasing service and avoid it, but now your paying someone to do the paperwork.

Feth all that noise. Don't employ them. Subcontract them for a project.

And then another.

And then another.

And then soon the whole world is yours!

Gamble wrote:The extra bodies won't automatically help either. Didn't Painter 6479(?) go under after sub-contracting?

Don't I know THAT well enough.

(I can't verify the accuracy of these statements, only that he made them)

Initially, he was only doing higher level painting. No tabletop.
Enough people clamored for tabletop that he brought in a couple friends and paid them to do the tabletop.
The friends were taking a long time to get stuff done, but kept promising them "soon." Eventually, the friends stopped replying.
When he finally got tired of the delays, he went to get the models and discovered that they were mostly untouched.
...and he never got the money back from the now former friends.

Where the "extra bodies" concept has the best potential to work is when you actually bring those bodies into your work space, and require them to come & go like a real job.

Eric



Automatically Appended Next Post:

WARBOSS TZOO wrote:

R3con wrote:Adding employee's means adding LOTS and LOTS of paperwork to your weakly routine.

Its more than just tracking hours and writing checks, you've got Unemployment to track, workers comp insurance, any state regulations needed to be followed.

Seriously 1 employee translates into about 3 hours of work a week just doing paperwork.

Now you could lease the employee from an employee leasing service and avoid it, but now your paying someone to do the paperwork.

Feth all that noise. Don't employ them. Subcontract them for a project.

And then another.

And then another.

And then soon the whole world is yours!

Subcontracting opens up a whole different can of worms. Shawn at BTP can attest to that.

Eric

Nuts to subbing.

I prefer knowing where all my clients' stuff is, and knowing I'm doing something they'll be happy with. I simply can't afford to pay someone else to clean flash for me, in time or money.

The fact is a lot of these 'commission' studios are great at art, but have no true business plan or formal idea of any execution strategy for the long haul business.
To even call them a 'studio' could be trivial - many are just one man - two man - three man? coop at most.

Many, are simply artists, and not business minded individuals. That becomes a severe amputation as they are not able to understand good business conduct and what needs to happen.

Now, this is purely generalizing - but in truth I am going to guess that majority of the 'small time' commissioners out there don't have a business license nor organized plan. It is a 'side' hobby - and extra as MM stated.

Its only people like GMM, BTP and such - who have both professional businesses and the long term goal - that makes them great commissioners in terms of business.
It is their bread and butter - their job and thus they take your business very seriously - they have a long term goal.

Local, or indy commissioners have short term 'quick money' generation goals. They 'hope' to be long term - but only as an added income to their other job.

The many sprouting commissioners are simply gamers like you and I.

Established commissioners do it for a living, or at the very least - understand the needs of customer communication, fast efficient turn around times, and more discipline.

There are several reasons I dont do employees:
- I like to work alone and I am very detail oriented and have to know what is going on. I probably couldnt handle minis in someone elses hands.
- I work at home
- There is no one locally that even paints to my Beta level AFAIK. I am not going to outsource to someone I cant meet in person. That is assured stolen minis and I cant go to their house to give them the business if they dont fork it back over on time.
- I dont get 100% of what that person makes of course, only a small fraction on the top for what I do. So it means 100% more computer work, organizing and upkeep for about 10% more income.
- As MM has said Alpha level is too high to train anyone. BTP is a great model for having employees and it is why he has around 8. He is a lower cost service that is more quantity over quality (nothing wrong with that). He can easily train people to paint to his level.

As for assembly I have tried to get my 17 year old brother to do my assembly and have offered full rates I charge (he gets all the fees) but he doesn't want to. I guess he needs to work a crappy retail job like I did to appreciate a fun job.

GMMStudios wrote:As for assembly I have tried to get my 17 year old brother to do my assembly and have offered full rates I charge (he gets all the fees) but he doesn't want to. I guess he needs to work a crappy retail job like I did to appreciate a fun job.

I think this is too true

It does give me an idea, though- what about a high school "intern"? One just started at my job this past week, and I've been showing him how to do some things. At my former job, we brought in a whole bunch for large scale assembly projects (engineering stuff, not wargames). But couldn't it work the same here?

Note- I'm only talking about the basics, not the paintings- mold line removal, perhaps priming... and since they're a student and it's a fun job, the pay doesn't have to be too high. The only problem is finding someone who can stand removing mold lines long enough... perhaps just a few hours a week to start (doing it on-site), and if they like it and do well, more?

RogueMarket wrote:The fact is a lot of these 'commission' studios are great at art, but have no true business plan or formal idea of any execution strategy for the long haul business.
To even call them a 'studio' could be trivial - many are just one man - two man - three man? coop at most.

Many, are simply artists, and not business minded individuals. That becomes a severe amputation as they are not able to understand good business conduct and what needs to happen.

Now, this is purely generalizing - but in truth I am going to guess that majority of the 'small time' commissioners out there don't have a business license nor organized plan. It is a 'side' hobby - and extra as MM stated.

Its only people like GMM, BTP and such - who have both professional businesses and the long term goal - that makes them great commissioners in terms of business.
It is their bread and butter - their job and thus they take your business very seriously - they have a long term goal.

Local, or indy commissioners have short term 'quick money' generation goals. They 'hope' to be long term - but only as an added income to their other job.

The many sprouting commissioners are simply gamers like you and I.

Established commissioners do it for a living, or at the very least - understand the needs of customer communication, fast efficient turn around times, and more discipline.

I have to agree on all your points. When I decided to do this full-time, I took in all the factors you listed. I am a gamer, and a one-man operation. I also have close to 20 years of retail experience in gamestores; 4 different FLGS, GW, WotC and Toys R Us, so I know a little about customer service. Customer Service with gamers no less, so I do know exactly what I'm getting into.

I am just astonished at these threads about mulit-month wait-times and lack of, or no communication at all. I am in it for the long-haul, haven't seen any want-ads for figure painters out there. Just waiting to land my first commission so I can get my name out there and generate some referrals.

I don't really think the wait time is the issue. If you're doing quality work, people are generally happy to wait their turn and understand that a rush job will be inferior. I'm booked solidly for months in advance, and I still get enquiries and new bookings for slots well in the future.
What is important is honesty - I let my clients know what's ahead of them in the queue - I let them know whether things are slipping or gaining time, and I don't make promises I can't keep.
As for getting those first commissions, loss leaders on ebay work to kick-start things, as does simply posting lots of step-by-steps and quality shots of what you do, everywhere. Basically, communicating with your potential customers. One happy customer leads to another, and so on.

Le Grognard wrote:

RogueMarket wrote:The fact is a lot of these 'commission' studios are great at art, but have no true business plan or formal idea of any execution strategy for the long haul business.
To even call them a 'studio' could be trivial - many are just one man - two man - three man? coop at most.

Many, are simply artists, and not business minded individuals. That becomes a severe amputation as they are not able to understand good business conduct and what needs to happen.

Now, this is purely generalizing - but in truth I am going to guess that majority of the 'small time' commissioners out there don't have a business license nor organized plan. It is a 'side' hobby - and extra as MM stated.

Its only people like GMM, BTP and such - who have both professional businesses and the long term goal - that makes them great commissioners in terms of business.
It is their bread and butter - their job and thus they take your business very seriously - they have a long term goal.

Local, or indy commissioners have short term 'quick money' generation goals. They 'hope' to be long term - but only as an added income to their other job.

The many sprouting commissioners are simply gamers like you and I.

Established commissioners do it for a living, or at the very least - understand the needs of customer communication, fast efficient turn around times, and more discipline.

I have to agree on all your points. When I decided to do this full-time, I took in all the factors you listed. I am a gamer, and a one-man operation. I also have close to 20 years of retail experience in gamestores; 4 different FLGS, GW, WotC and Toys R Us, so I know a little about customer service. Customer Service with gamers no less, so I do know exactly what I'm getting into.

I am just astonished at these threads about mulit-month wait-times and lack of, or no communication at all. I am in it for the long-haul, haven't seen any want-ads for figure painters out there. Just waiting to land my first commission so I can get my name out there and generate some referrals.

And, I know it was generalizing for me to say - but a good commissioner - or a reliable one doesn't even need to be full time - though its just that people full time are way more SERIOUS about this business. I know a lot of good friends who are good at commissions, do it part time - and ARE fine. I'm just saying the overall indy commissioners - that there is a true trend. Not EVERYONE is faulty - but there is a growing number who are....

BTW good luck with your services will be seeing you around ;P

Interesting. If I were commissioned to do something like a tac-squad and they were worried about getting ripped I'd send them a tac squad as a placeholder while I have theirs, both so they can use it if they need it for their gaming and so they cant be utterly ripped off. Shipping would drive the price up a bit tho :/

Alot of good points and ideas brought up Gents. The biggest problem I faced and what I see in 90+% of complaints is lack of communication. It's very rare that people are unsatisfied with the work that gets done or how fast. A vast majority of the complaints revolve around Painter X or Sculptor Y not responding to questions.

Any ideas on how to avoid that?
Any ideas on how to reset comms if they do stop answering?

My issue was just recently completed. Initially, everything was going smoothly and then thhp... nothing. I followed up my e-mail a week later. Within 2 weeks of the 1st ignored e-mail I located the user on several boards and contacted them via PM. After those were read, and ignored, I sent a courteous message explaining how I knew he was reading the messages and that I was tracking when he logged on to various sites. Would you believe I got a response and an e-mail with pics of the completed work within 24 hours. The guy did great work and I'd love to use him again, but I'm a subcriber to screw me once shame on you/ screw me twice shame on me.

I'd suggest:
1) Stay curteous, no matter how bs wrong they are.
2) Multiple ways to contact them.

Phone #
E-mail
Usernames on various sites.

I think BTP would take issue with somebody calling out the quality of his work. He has a good staff who do a fine job and within a reasonable time frame.

GMM while nobody may paint at your level locally, there are certainly other things you can do. Your suggestion of outsourcing assembly isn't a bad plan. Heck, BTP would do that for you if you wanted. Your creating your own competition by not being able to work in what I'd consider a timely manner. Your already a luxury item. The folks using your talents for large products can likely afford some extra cash for an assembler.

Sarge wrote:I think BTP would take issue with somebody calling out the quality of his work. He has a good staff who do a fine job and within a reasonable time frame.

Depends on what you mean by "calling out."
While it's been a while since I spoke with Shawn, there was a time when we spoke quite often and in depth.

What I KNOW about Shawn (from back then, at least) is that he knows exactly where he sits in the "World of Commission Painting." Shawn's work falls solidly in the realm of tabletop to above tabletop. His focus is on creating armies that look good on the tabletop and doing it fast. His niche is not the same as some others.

One of BTP's typical minis isn't going to win a Golden Daemon. He knows that. That isn't what he's going for.

Now, I'm certain he'd take exception to the use of words like "shoddy" or "cr@p," but who wouldn't? Heck, he's such a good guy that, even while "taking exception," he'd be extremely nice about it.


Eric

Sarge wrote:I think BTP would take issue with somebody calling out the quality of his work. He has a good staff who do a fine job and within a reasonable time frame.

I think everyone who has posted in this thread would agree with you?

Sarge wrote:

GMM while nobody may paint at your level locally, there are certainly other things you can do. Your suggestion of outsourcing assembly isn't a bad plan. Heck, BTP would do that for you if you wanted. Your creating your own competition by not being able to work in what I'd consider a timely manner. Your already a luxury item. The folks using your talents for large products can likely afford some extra cash for an assembler.

I do work in a timely manner. I paint an army a week at GT best painted quality. Demand is just too high is the "problem." But in this economy that is the very last thing I am going to worry/complain about, I appreciate it very much.

Outsourcing assembly doesnt mean I am going to get more armies painted it means I will just have a little more free time each week. Im certainly not going to start painting 2 2k armies a week I DO have a life outside of painting

GMMStudios wrote:Im certainly not going to start painting 2 2k armies a week I DO have a life outside of painting

Pffft.

Slacker.

GMM do you find time/energy to paint stuff for your own use?

Oh yeah. I usually assemble them in spare time then take a week off to paint an army of my own.

I *could* paint them in spare time, but I have grown to hate half painting something then letting it sit. If I start painting something I prefer to not stop until I see it through. Im just so used to doing that through regular work I guess.

I dont do a whole lot of personal stuff. I get "painting enjoyment" out of work painting, so all that is left to be filled is "gaming enjoyment" and the several armies I have fill that role. Im starting fantasy now though and working on Khorne and looking for a second army, so we will see how those go. I am the type of player that prefers to have several 2k armies (rather than how a lot of people have 5k+ of one) and IMO fantasy is much worse than 40k when it comes to the same army vs same army stagnation.

GMM I stand corrected. I had your timeline much more similar to Shawn's. If your doing an army a week and have everything booked until I believe, July, kudos to you sir!

Thanks Sarge.

But Shawns timeline is because he is more about a quick turnaround and he has so many employees. I think his studio puts out at LEAST four armies a week? So if he is booked out a month that is...12 armies he has booked. Equivelant to me being booked out 3 months. So in Shawn time I am booked out two and a half months? Not that much different, as I think he is booked a month and a half at any one time.

GMM's booked until Nov sir, and going strong!