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Orlanth wrote:The authorities concern is justified.

Building a bunker is not a problem, while uncommon now. You can even buy one frfom companies, you could even do so in the UK where construction is very heavily legislated.

Normally this is done under the remit of nuclear shelters. While still legal companies building shelters were a relic of the cold war.

In the US with the freedom to bear arms, fortifying a home is not unreasonable step, in fact if you own a gun for the reasons given under the Constitution it is in fact logical to also find ways of securing a refuge within you own home.

The problems start with telling noone about it. The authorites had to come and look, you build underground mainly for privacy, once you rule out general nuclear war all other threats to your home can be countered with surface construction.

Why do you need an underground bunker that is not on any legal blueprints for the building?

Not trust guv'ment is not enough of an excuse sorry to say. You might be paranoid, or you might need the room to run a Josef Fritzl type dungeon, or to manufacture or stockpile WMD. Not good.

There are other serious concerns, though they pale compared to the above, but these are reasons to schedule an inspector, not to make a dawn raid.

Amaeteur excavatgions can seriously damage the foundations of the parent structure, or even adjoining structures. Can damage or steal resources from electric, gas and water piping, plus cause serious health concerns in doing so.

The authorities were not heavy handed.

This is whats wrong with society now. We have absolute property rights. As long as its on his property he should be able to try to dig a hole to China if he wants. If it kills him then too bad for him.

Miguelsan wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
There are other serious concerns, though they pale compared to the above, but these are reasons to schedule an inspector, not to make a dawn raid.

The authorities were not heavy handed.

I beg to disagree, the authorities were heavy handed. In a sane world you send an inspector to check a building code violation and a couple of cops in case the guy turns up a loonie, not the whole circus.
After all a guy carting of detritus from his house sounds like somebody doing some unauthoriced house renovation work not building WMD. Apparently the only thing missing was Bauer torturing somebody in a ticking clock scenario

M.

Sorry Miguelsan, the only thing missing was not Bauer but the human trajedy that might have been occuring there.

You can build a bunker quite legally. The only logical reason to build a secret bunker is to keep very dodgy activities from being uncovered, though it makes sense from a psychologists point of view for a paranoid survivalist to make a secret bunker it lao makes sense from the same psychologists view that the survivalist might overreact when it is uncovered.

In any even a multi level bunker might contain traps, or accomplices let alone victims or evidence. Its an unknown that raises too many risks. There was a fair likelihood the the polices mindset that the bunker was there to abuse captives or plot terrorism. A number of serial killers victims are held for days or weeks before being killed if the pervert has the faciltiies. We still dont know that is not why the bunker was made.

What would have happened if two cops and an inspector came along in a softly softly approach and they found a sarin factory and some well armed terrorist accomplices, or a girl missing for ten weeks/years chained to the wall, or even just suffered a cave in because the bunker was ill constructed. Sorry too risky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

This is whats wrong with society now. We have absolute property rights. As long as its on his property he should be able to try to dig a hole to China if he wants. If it kills him then too bad for him.

Taking different aspects in addition to the security concerns above.

He could have used his property rights to build a safe and legal bunker, however even if we omit usage (which I dont) its still too dodgy. The authorities didnt know what he was digging only that he was digging.

1. He could sell the house, the house might be undermined and a slowly closing deathtrap to the new occupants who would pay the price months or years later when it suddenly goes. Undermining is both a sudden and a long term problem simultaneously.

2. An underground installation might interfere with cabling and piping, water and power theft is a big problem in some areas. Imagine you frazzie had drilled to the local power and water utilities and leeched the resources you need, imagine you now shut of your water and electricity and just stole it instead by tapping the cables and pipes underground between junctions, where it would go unnoticed. You could be stealing month by month to the tune of 100% of your water and energy bills, fiscally thats a lot of crime over a period of time, yes.

3. Excavations might lead anywhere, and bypass the property borders spreading the risks to others.

This is why we have planning regs.

Orlanth wrote:

Miguelsan wrote:

Orlanth wrote:
There are other serious concerns, though they pale compared to the above, but these are reasons to schedule an inspector, not to make a dawn raid.

The authorities were not heavy handed.

I beg to disagree, the authorities were heavy handed. In a sane world you send an inspector to check a building code violation and a couple of cops in case the guy turns up a loonie, not the whole circus.
After all a guy carting of detritus from his house sounds like somebody doing some unauthoriced house renovation work not building WMD. Apparently the only thing missing was Bauer torturing somebody in a ticking clock scenario

M.

Sorry Miguelsan, the ojnly thing missing wass not Bauer but the human trajedy that might have been occuring there.

You can build a bunker quite legally. The only logical reason to build a secret bunker is to keep very dodgy activities from being uncovered, though it makes sense from a psychologists point of view for a paranoid survivalist to make a secret bunker it lao makes sense from the same psychologists view that the survivalist might overreact when it is uncovered.

In any even a multi level bunker might contain traps, or accomplices let alone victims or evidence. Its an unknown that raises too many risks. There was a fair likelihood the the polices mindset that the bunker was there to abuse captives or plot terrorism. A number of serial killers victims are held for days or weeks before being killed if the pervert has the faciltiies. We still dont know that is not why the bunker was made.

What would have happened if two cops and an inspector came along in a softly softly approach and they found a sarin factory and some well armed terrorist accomplices, or a girl missing for ten weeks/years chained to the wall, or even just suffered a cave in because the bunker was ill constructed. Sorry too risky.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Frazzled wrote:

This is whats wrong with society now. We have absolute property rights. As long as its on his property he should be able to try to dig a hole to China if he wants. If it kills him then too bad for him.

Taking different aspects in addition to the security concerns above.

He could have used his property rights to build a safe and legal bunker, however even if we omit usage (which I dont) its still too dodgy. The authorities didnt know what he was digging only that he was digging.

1. He could sell the house, the house might be undermined and a slowly closing deathtrap to the new occupants who would pay the price months or years later when it suddenly goes. Undermining is both a sudden and a long term problem simultaneously.

2. An underground installation might interfere with cabling and piping, water and power theft is a big problem in some areas. Imagine you frazzie had drilled to the local power and water utilities and leeched the resources you need, imagine you now shut of your water and electricity and just stole it instead by tapping the cables and pipes underground between junctions, where it would go unnoticed. You could be stealing month by month to the tune of 100% of your water and energy bills, fiscally thats a lot of crime over a period of time, yes.

3. Excavations might lead anywhere, and bypass the property borders spreading the risks to others.

This is why we have planning regs.

1. There's no point to building a bunker if everyone knows about. Thats rule #27 of the Zombie survival guide and the subject of an excellent Twilight Zone episode.
2. Unleashing the full force of the government here is way overkill. At worse we're talking code violations.
3. Again its a fundamental view oabout the rights of proerpty and right to be left the hell alone.

Frazzled wrote:
1. There's no point to building a bunker if everyone knows about. Thats rule #27 of the Zombie survival guide and the subject of an excellent Twilight Zone episode.
2. Unleashing the full force of the government here is way overkill. At worse we're talking code violations.
3. Again its a fundamental view oabout the rights of proerpty and right to be left the hell alone.

Maybe Texas is changing too, however if your point 1 is taken as a relevant defence is raises an interesting question: Is Texas in the Twilight Zone?

Dude we ARE the twilight zone, but with cheerleaders!

Dreadwinter wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:I thought Americans were a lot more lax on what you could / couldn't do in your own home? I was under the impression that you didn't really have obtrusive planning laws like we do over here in the UK for example and you could build whatever the hell you want as long as it's your property?

You need permits for pretty much everything. It also needs to be inspected by the city and checked to see if it's up to code. The work also has to be "professionally done".

So much for the pioneer spirit eh? I know that we here in the UK suffer from extremely anal retentive planning laws - didn't think you would have the same attitude. You learn something new every day!

I don't know if being concerned about the construction of a 35 foot deep bunker under some ones home in secret in the middle of a residential neighborhood is being anal. Especially when it's filled with grenades and oil drums.

Holy crap, lets take stuff way out of context. Inert Grenades from I am guessing when he was in Vietnam and Oil Drums that he used to take the dirt that he dug out away from his home.

Yes, I'm sure everyone was perfectly understanding of the fact that they were inert and empty when they were in HIS SECRET fething BUNKER.

I guess that means all those yankees with basements are crazy militia bunker guys too. I didn't know that we were bunker people when we had that basement in St. Louis.

There's a huge difference between an underground bunker complex and a basement rec room.

Frazzled wrote:I guess that means all those yankees with basements are crazy militia bunker guys too. I didn't know that we were bunker people when we had that basement in St. Louis.

No fraz. This isn't how logic works. Roll 'dem dice again.

Kanluwen wrote:There's a huge difference between an underground bunker complex and a basement rec room.

Yes. One has a construction permit, one doesn't .

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's a huge difference between an underground bunker complex and a basement rec room.

Yes. One has a construction permit, one doesn't .

Uh no. You could get the permits and build a fully stocked bunker complex, because they're not going to check if you turn it into the biggest armory outside of Fort Hood -after the work is done-.

Just don't be stupid and say "Hey guys, I need someone to help me build a basement rec room that would keep the cops out and turn into a killing field if they try to raid".

Kanluwen wrote:

Frazzled wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:There's a huge difference between an underground bunker complex and a basement rec room.

Yes. One has a construction permit, one doesn't .

Uh no. You could get the permits and build a fully stocked bunker complex, because they're not going to check if you turn it into the biggest armory outside of Fort Hood -after the work is done-.

Just don't be stupid and say "Hey guys, I need someone to help me build a basement rec room that would keep the cops out and turn into a killing field if they try to raid".

true that, however if you knew the City of Austin's byzantine zoning approval nightmare you'd do the same thing. There have been several scandals recently.

But in normal areas yea I don't see the deal. I'd have to get one from the HA anyway. In Austin I'd get someone else to build it too. You need a freaking one of these to cut a pool (seriously)

http://footage.shutterstock.com/video.html?id=38206

ShumaGorath wrote:

Dreadwinter wrote:

ShumaGorath wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:I thought Americans were a lot more lax on what you could / couldn't do in your own home? I was under the impression that you didn't really have obtrusive planning laws like we do over here in the UK for example and you could build whatever the hell you want as long as it's your property?

You need permits for pretty much everything. It also needs to be inspected by the city and checked to see if it's up to code. The work also has to be "professionally done".

So much for the pioneer spirit eh? I know that we here in the UK suffer from extremely anal retentive planning laws - didn't think you would have the same attitude. You learn something new every day!

I don't know if being concerned about the construction of a 35 foot deep bunker under some ones home in secret in the middle of a residential neighborhood is being anal. Especially when it's filled with grenades and oil drums.

Holy crap, lets take stuff way out of context. Inert Grenades from I am guessing when he was in Vietnam and Oil Drums that he used to take the dirt that he dug out away from his home.

Yes, I'm sure everyone was perfectly understanding of the fact that they were inert and empty when they were in HIS SECRET fething BUNKER.

Where else would he put them? The kitchen?

Non-secret bunker?

Pics from inside.
http://galleries.statesman.com/gallery/multi-level-bunker-found-under-home-051110/#83663

We have a local Anti-Gov "nut" around where I live that has a nice underground bunker complete with air tight submarine doors. I think his is legal though.

The man was a Vietnam Vet right? Could he not have been a Tunnel Rat or been stationed in a base with plenty of underground bunkers? Seems to me he may have just had a "Vietnam Flashback" moment and the only way to feel safe was to make his own bunker.

For the record, I would also love to have an underground complex under my house.

I would like a basement as well, but a real one. I need the extra space for a music room for the Once and Future King, and a room for reloading. More importantly there's the occasional tornado and I would like something secure for that purpose.

Frazzled wrote: More importantly there's the occasional tornado and I would like something secure for that purpose.

Roger that. By the time "your" (ie Texas) bad weather gets to Mississippi its GOOD and mad, especially this year. By the time it gets through us and into Alabama - look out.

Frazzled wrote:Pics from inside.
http://galleries.statesman.com/gallery/multi-level-bunker-found-under-home-051110/#83663

That bunker sucks.

I see cut pipes and meters that have been tampered with.

ShumaGorath wrote:

Frazzled wrote:Pics from inside.
http://galleries.statesman.com/gallery/multi-level-bunker-found-under-home-051110/#83663

That bunker sucks.

Yea, he really did need a contractor, or at least a how to manual.

The stroy continues to get weirder. Evidently the city had been out earlier and ok'd at least some of this construction. Typically Austin bizarre.

ShumaGorath wrote:

filbert wrote:

Kanluwen wrote:

filbert wrote:I thought Americans were a lot more lax on what you could / couldn't do in your own home? I was under the impression that you didn't really have obtrusive planning laws like we do over here in the UK for example and you could build whatever the hell you want as long as it's your property?

You need permits for pretty much everything. It also needs to be inspected by the city and checked to see if it's up to code. The work also has to be "professionally done".

So much for the pioneer spirit eh? I know that we here in the UK suffer from extremely anal retentive planning laws - didn't think you would have the same attitude. You learn something new every day!

I don't know if being concerned about the construction of a 35 foot deep bunker under some ones home in secret in the middle of a residential neighborhood is being anal. Especially when it's filled with grenades and oil drums.

Shuma, have you thought that said inert grenade might be one of those grenade shaped paperweights? Or could it be a deactivated grenade he brought from overseas? Obviously, if he's intruding on someone's property, that is a problem, but if his construction is safe and he legally owns his weapons, what is the problem.

I guess the thing is why not send an inspector and actually sit down and talk to the man. Why all the police? Of course, as usual, newspaper clips don't tell the whole story.

All those zombie attack posts finally got to someones head...

MUAHAHAHAHA not only will i make up a plan, ill implement it and post pictures... MUST WIN ZOMBIE THREADS!

Frazzled wrote:

This is whats wrong with society now. We have absolute property rights. As long as its on his property he should be able to try to dig a hole to China if he wants. If it kills him then too bad for him.

I disagree with you here Fraz. I think property rights have to have SOME limits for the good of society. I think those limits should be as unobtrusive as possible, but they're needed. In this instance, is it right to allow him to build a building that kills him if he is mentally ill and doesn't realize the danger of what he's doing? What if he invites someone into a property they don't realize is unsafe? Something I've actually run into is people who dump used oil on their property and justify it by saying its their property. My response is that yes, its your property, but it is our planet we have to live together on.

Don't get me wrong, I really think it sounds like its been blown out of proportion, and the guy should get to build his bunker, but I think an inspection isn't unreasonable.

It's too bad he didn't fortify the home against the black helicopter crowd.

If he had that much time, he could have put in a sh!tload of reinforced concrete for the upper level, welded in some I-beams against heavy breach attempts.

Then, when those black-clad SWAT guys come in, it's like a 'Nam flashback of VC in black pajamas...