Krak_kirby wrote:If I felt the the other guy was trying to pull a fast one on me I certainly would call him on WYSIWYG. But if the guy is a goober I thank my lucky stars and work on pushing through enough turns to get me the win.

targetawg wrote:
For my personal example, at ard boyz yesterday, there was a guy proxying his chaos army as a "counts as" spacewolves. I understand wanting to play a different army, I do, but to avoid utter confusion, wrong models, and just an obnoxious experience, if you want the new army you need to purchase it. He's played this army as the CSM's that they are for years btw, its not like he bought CSM to build into a converted 13th company.

carmachu wrote:

targetawg wrote:
For my personal example, at ard boyz yesterday, there was a guy proxying his chaos army as a "counts as" spacewolves. I understand wanting to play a different army, I do, but to avoid utter confusion, wrong models, and just an obnoxious experience, if you want the new army you need to purchase it. He's played this army as the CSM's that they are for years btw, its not like he bought CSM to build into a converted 13th company.

See now that I dont have a problem with. For a time I was doing the same thing: I had a IW army, before trading it off, that I was using the SW book for, becuase it had a much better warband feel then the crappy chaos marine books. I could almost see a WE army using BA, maybe. But until they bringback legion books or legion specific items, the CSM book just doesnt fit the big 9 fallen legions....

carmachu wrote:For one off games at home proxies are ok. At a tournment? You need to have the correct models....

targetawg wrote:My opinion goes for Ard Boyz and tournaments in general: proxies of any sort should not be allowed.
Edit: I mean proxies of the "this space marine is a gaunt" sort. If you did some super cool conversion to make alien-themed tyranids, I'm okay with that as long as its not confusing.

In friendly gaming, I'm fine with "my heavy bolters are lascannons, im still trying to get the bits". I understand updating armies takes time and you're working on it.

However, Ardboyz and tournies in general are the events you're preparing for, if you can't be troubled to finish your army like everyone else, you should be forced to play with what you have. No proxy, no counts as. If something broke off on the way over to the event, I understand. But large-scale proxies of weapons or rhino's as whirlwinds is total crap. If you wanted that model, then buy that model like everyone else. I also think TO's do themselves and their shops a disservice by allowing it. Tournaments are a motivating force for players to buy new models, after all, everyone wants to buy/play the new ish-list. Allowing people to just proxy an entire ARMY as the new-ish totally defeats the purpose, and is incredibly confusing.

For my personal example, at ard boyz yesterday, there was a guy proxying his chaos army as a "counts as" spacewolves. I understand wanting to play a different army, I do, but to avoid utter confusion, wrong models, and just an obnoxious experience, if you want the new army you need to purchase it. He's played this army as the CSM's that they are for years btw, its not like he bought CSM to build into a converted 13th company.

As an opponent, I have no idea whats going on in said army when EVERY model is a proxy. If you want to play with the new army, then buy it. If not, bring what you've got and be proud of it.

Arrathon wrote:Well if i am correct. I re read the rules and my buddy whom is pretty damn good with the rules told me flat out. No that Librarian Space hulk fig should of never been allowed in the game as it is not Logan Grimnar.

targetawg wrote:I'm okay with it as well...in friendly games. But the fact of the matter is if you have a given army, and you've played it as this forever, then a new book comes out and you don't want to buy the models so instead you just keep using your current army and call it the new army (in this case space wolves) just to get an advantage in the tourney from a more powerful rules set...thats sheisty.

Especially in a tournament that emphasizes mandatory wysiwyg.

imweasel wrote:

carmachu wrote:For one off games at home proxies are ok. At a tournment? You need to have the correct models....

What in the world do you do when there are no 'correct' models?

Not take the unit in question?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

targetawg wrote:My opinion goes for Ard Boyz and tournaments in general: proxies of any sort should not be allowed.
Edit: I mean proxies of the "this space marine is a gaunt" sort. If you did some super cool conversion to make alien-themed tyranids, I'm okay with that as long as its not confusing.

In friendly gaming, I'm fine with "my heavy bolters are lascannons, im still trying to get the bits". I understand updating armies takes time and you're working on it.

However, Ardboyz and tournies in general are the events you're preparing for, if you can't be troubled to finish your army like everyone else, you should be forced to play with what you have. No proxy, no counts as. If something broke off on the way over to the event, I understand. But large-scale proxies of weapons or rhino's as whirlwinds is total crap. If you wanted that model, then buy that model like everyone else. I also think TO's do themselves and their shops a disservice by allowing it. Tournaments are a motivating force for players to buy new models, after all, everyone wants to buy/play the new ish-list. Allowing people to just proxy an entire ARMY as the new-ish totally defeats the purpose, and is incredibly confusing.

For my personal example, at ard boyz yesterday, there was a guy proxying his chaos army as a "counts as" spacewolves. I understand wanting to play a different army, I do, but to avoid utter confusion, wrong models, and just an obnoxious experience, if you want the new army you need to purchase it. He's played this army as the CSM's that they are for years btw, its not like he bought CSM to build into a converted 13th company.

As an opponent, I have no idea whats going on in said army when EVERY model is a proxy. If you want to play with the new army, then buy it. If not, bring what you've got and be proud of it.

]
So, according to you, some units just can't be taken because no model currently exists for them?

Wow. That's not elitist at all.

Edit: I mean proxies of the "this space marine is a gaunt" sort. If you did some super cool conversion to make alien-themed tyranids, I'm okay with that as long as its not confusing.

insaniak wrote:

Arrathon wrote:Well if i am correct. I re read the rules and my buddy whom is pretty damn good with the rules told me flat out. No that Librarian Space hulk fig should of never been allowed in the game as it is not Logan Grimnar.

There is no problem with proxying another character as a 'counts as' special character.

While it's not mentioned specifically in the Space Wolves codex, the Codex: Space Marines actually specifically encourages this sort of thing, to enable people to build their own chapters.


Having said that, playing one Chapter with another Chapter's rules can be a little misleading for other players, as it can make it harder to remember what is what.

targetawg wrote:And in my post, I'm talking about proxying one entire army as another entire army. A range of models exists for the Space wolf army. If a unit doesnt have a model, of course you convert or proxy something reasonable for it, don't put words in my mouth.

imweasel wrote:

targetawg wrote:I'm okay with it as well...in friendly games. But the fact of the matter is if you have a given army, and you've played it as this forever, then a new book comes out and you don't want to buy the models so instead you just keep using your current army and call it the new army (in this case space wolves) just to get an advantage in the tourney from a more powerful rules set...thats sheisty.

Especially in a tournament that emphasizes mandatory wysiwyg.

Well if the models are WYSIWYG, what's the problem?

Suppose he had 'actual' space marine models and they were painted with a salamander scheme? Wouldn't that violate your very restrictive WYSIWYG rule?

I mean if he should build a complete new army, surely he should have to paint it, right? 'Cause that would be all confusing and stuff...

targetawg wrote:You as well, quit trolling and attempting to put words in a mouth to spark an argument. I clearly listed that there were exceptions, and that my issue was primarily with an entire army. The models in said army were not wysiwyg. They had CSM upgrades that clearly couldnt be taken by wolves "counting as" space wolf upgrades. There were literally 20+ different things you needed to rmember as an opponent that "counted as" something else.

Also, the rule: WYSIWYG has never applied to paint schemes outside of the "red paint job" upgrade for orks. Nor did I even mention paint. Also, contrary to your belief, WYSIWYG is not MY rule, its the rule for the tournament we both decided to play in. The other rule of that tournament is *gasp* THAT THERES NO PAINTING REQUIREMENT

Honestly you guys...