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۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Heavily armoured assault dreads have existed for ages.

The Ironclad Dread did not exist in the rules until fifth edition. Same with every other unit and piece of equipment that I've listed. Let's face it, the fact remains that each new fifth edition codex has introduced brand new pieces of equipment, units, and vehicles that did not exist before.

GW is here to sell models, after all. So they create new units and try and sell them.


The Passion: Because that goes contrary to The Passion as it currently is in C:WH, the most recent rendition of the Sisters. In the current codex, The Passion gives +2 initiative. But then, it's kinda sucky right now and nobody uses it; ergo, I buffed it by also letting it give +1 attack. If Hand of the Emperor allows them to strike slowly and powerfully (IE, S5 / I1), then The Passion allows them to strike quickly, but with no added strength (S3 / I5 / +1A). Therefor, they are both equally useful, but in different situations.


Blessed Weaponi: Because it gives more options to players on how they want to build their blessed weapon. A Blessed Weapon is a unique and powerful artefact of the faith, from a giant axe, to a sword glowing with white fire, to a power flail with hooks in the end of its many chains, and so on and so forth.

Power stake: I've been wanting to redo this, as previously stated. What exactly would your ideas for it be?

Masterwork bolt pistols: With the exception of the weapons wielded by Special Characters, there are three items that are master-crafted in this codex. Mostly, however, MCBPs are used to represent a Heroine that has come from the ranks of Seraphim.


I don't have a gakky attitude, so much as I simply just don't have the patience or desire to deal with non-constructive posts. There's been enough of that crap over the nearly two years I've been building this codex; unhelpful people are annoying, so I don't apologize if they so happen to be offended by me not caring what they think.

Melissia wrote:

Martyrdom: Because I didn't like it? I fully admit that my biases towards the faction have come into this codex.

Fair enough. I don't suicide mine, so I don't run into it.

The Passion: The old one was merely +2 initiative.

Yeah, makes it a bit OTT. But I guess that's okay in comparison to other dex's if we trim

Acts of Faith: I actually kinda did, too. But that was one of the most requested and suggested changes, simplifying Acts of Faith.

5th does simplify, I can buy it.

Sanctified Sword / Blessed Blade: Because these are each unique and powerful relics, each one a unique and blessed relic of the Ecclesiarchy. Relic Blades appear to be basically just oversized power swords from what I've read.

The same can be said for marine weapons. I would make them roughly the same.

Power Stake: I was thinking of toning it down. But I DO want it to be powerful and unique. The current power stake is kinda lame.

How about using Witchblade rules and PW?

Marksman Autorifles: Because autorifles do a better job training the Novitiates for the use of bolters.

Meh. I can see where you're going... Shrug. I can buy it, I guess. I would still go with normal autorifles then. (Which have the lasgun stats)

Accurized Bolters: Because they aren't sniper rifles? They're basically this.

I can buy this using the new idea of Melta/Flame/Bolter/Pinning as a fourth pillar. This should be expanded upon.

Boltcannon: Because those weapons aren't bolter/flamer/meltagun. Yes, I do very much intend to stick with that holy trio.

I would expand to a 4th. Pinning. Think about how you can expand that. Mortars, Snipers and new Pinning weapons?

LR Vengeance: Yes. Which isn't actually underpriced in comparison to the Leman Russ. It gives up the large blast for AP1 and a 1/3rd chance to apply Melta (note that it ONLY gets Melta on a direct hit roll on the scatter die... which is a one third chance), and pays 30 points to increase to BS4.

Just don't like it. Have to agree to disagree. I would rather see something unique to Sisters than another LR variant.

Priestess of the Machine: More like a Techpriestess for the Sisters. Marines are not, and have never been, the only ones that get AdMech assistance. The statline is closer to the IG Techpriest, with better equipment options, which fits with how Sisters tend to be anyway, yes? Sisters need the assistance of the Adeptus Mechanicus. They are adept at maintaining their equipment, on that I would agree, but repairs or anything more complicated than stripping and cleaning I would expect to be the domain of the Mechanicus. This merely formalizes the relationship that already exists.

Not a fan. But it is your vision.

Celestine, the Living Saint: No. She comes back the at the beginning of the player turn, or that's how I intended it. If I worded it weirdly, please say which specific part you were confused about?

I may have missed something. I'll have to check later.

Celestians: Yeah, they are intended to be close combat veterans, the best fighters in an Order. If I am to simplify the entry, I would actually do so by removing the ranged options and making them a purely close combat oriented squad... but then that would leave Sarissas in need of inclusion elsewhere.

Noooo. Keep sarissas. I'm thinking they should have less CCW options and more just brutal Sarissa action. If that makes sense. They are CCWs with what they have, the natural SOB weapons of Bolter and fist.

Holy Hatred: Unless they could hit better naturally because of their WS4. Independent Characters have always been the exception to Holy Hatred, I assume because of their unique fighting styles.

Maybe tighten up the wording. It confused me.

Repentia: I don't see why they aren't. If they weren't faithful, they wouldn't join the Repentia to begin with. They are Faithful, but cannot use Acts of Faith. Basically they just grant one faith point for taking the unit.

Gotcha

Vindictors: They were originally intended to fill a Troops choice role, but were moved to Elites because people thought they fit there better. Their niche is pinning and mid-ranged power, and light anti-tank on the Ophelia Pattern Heavy Bolter.

I would maybe simplify the weapons choices to bolters and the Ophelia, drop the Sniper bolter and give them a special rule that says any wounds taken from the squad force a pinning check. Maybe add a special rule that they add a neg 1 for each wound above 1. Make them very different. Make some cool rule name for it. The combination of Pinning with the Holy Trinity would be awesome. Pinn a squad then flame them.

Novitiates: Lasguns would not properly train them for the use in bolter weaponry (lasguns don't have nearly enough recoil!). And they do get shotguns-- with special ammunition that allows them to appreciate the sight of an enemy burning alive

See above. Swap to straight up Autoguns for simplicity.

Conflagrator Light Tank: No, they are not hellhounds. They use the Immolator STC chassis (supposedly it has a unique one) to create a light tank capable of firing its weapons while moving at the speed of an infantry advance, or firing its main gun while moving at the speed of an armored advance.

Hmm. Then we need to differentiate it from Immolators more.

Blazing Sun Sisters:
1: TL Bolters are a Marine thing, an ancient relic left over from the Horus Heresy. Sisters started fighting five thousand years after that. They have no use for TL bolters when they could use Storm Bolters instead.
2: What part of the entry needs rewording?

1) I understand but it is still awkward. I still would prefer TL Bolters
2) I don't remember what I asked. I'll check later.

Nightflame: They're probably closer to vanguard veterans or sternguard than terminators. They're a collection of highly skilled and professional veterans, whom believe that the best way to kill heretics is up close and without warning.

More fluff for them so I can 'see them'.

Vengeance: Yes, but Land Raiders are generic, expensive (in more than one way), and most importantly, they're Marine vehicles.

They are Imperial vehicles made by the Mech. Rhinos are 'Marine Vehicles' but everyone else uses them too.

Dropship: Maybe. But at eighty five points, this transport needs something. And I don't really want it to be too cheap...

How about a rule where any unit within 6-12" (pick one) when it lands must take a pinning check as Holy Music and Fragmentation mines are blasted from the Dropship as it lands? Call it something cool (Too bad Descent of Angels is taken)

Immo: It's not a Chimera. It's an immolator, which is supposedly its own STC according to old fluff.

Right, but you largely made it a Chim with the changes.

Rhino: I just gave a name to the rule Marines have been using for a while.

No marines only have 2 Fire Points on Rhinos and none on Razorbacks.

The other Acts of Faith: I had actually considered dropping this entirely.

Cool.

Hierophant Siege Tank In its current draft, it basically instead has a multi-melta that always applies Melta as long as it hits (even at 24"). No blast, no template, etc.

Shrug. I can see it.

Faithful Citizens: If they were scared into action, they'd be Conscripts. These aren't so much scared into action as they are whipped into a religious rage, and then turned loose upon the enemy. Thus a faith point. However, they cannot use Acts of Faith.

Have to make a rule that says Faithful but not faith using. Could simplify entries. Like Faith Battery or something silly.

Zealots: Pfft, everyone Imperial has them. GUARDSMEN have Frag Grenades. Fearless IS a penalty in close combat.

Hmm. I still don't buy frags for Zealots.

Melissia wrote:I don't have a gakky attitude, so much as I simply just don't have the patience or desire to deal with non-constructive posts. There's been enough of that crap over the nearly two years I've been building this codex; unhelpful people are annoying, so I don't apologize if they so happen to be offended by me not caring what they think.

There is the problem though, some of them are giving well, thought out advice, though your head is stuck so far up your ---- fan-dex ---- that you just refuse to change it.

Melissia wrote:I don't have a gakky attitude, so much as I simply just don't have the patience or desire to deal with non-constructive posts. There's been enough of that crap over the nearly two years I've been building this codex; unhelpful people are annoying, so I don't apologize if they so happen to be offended by me not caring what they think.

you do not listen ANY post
so what you have made it two years that is not good excuse
and ever thougth that they are "annoing" because you are arrogant brat who wants everything and rages when you dont get that

Guys and Gals. Rule 1

pretre wrote:[snip]

Sanctified Sword / Blessed Blade: But then, if I made them more like Marine weapons, they'd be more like Marine weapons. Which is bad


Power Stake:

Marksman Autorifles / Sororitas Novitiates: I suppose I can do that, but then they'd need a reduction in points. Same with the shotgun special ammunition. Without either weapon they're kinda underwhelming.

Boltcannon: Eh... Mortars still aren't bolter/flamer/melta weapons. Unless you wanted a flame-based mortar

Celestians: Unless I change Sarissas to count as a second CCW, I really don't want to drop the BP+CCW change.

Vindictors: I'll see what I can work up for them.

Conflagrator Light Tank: It IS fairly different. It has a turret, a hull weapon, and can take sponsons. Which means it has no room for transport. Basically, as the Predator uses the Rhino STC to create a tank, so, too, does the Conflagrator use the Immolator STC to create a tank. The Sisters just have more use for a more mobile firebase even if it has less hitting power overall (in the sense that it can't have lascannons).

Nightflame: What kind of fluff? Like a longer description of the unit, or an example of how they might be used, or something else?

Land Raiders: Another reason I want to shy away from them is that supposedly they're restricted to only Marines anyway. Inquisitors can get them, but Inquisitors are bastards anyway.

Dropship: I suppose... but I'd rather have something that makes deep striking a bit safer myself... maybe not completely removing the risk, but still safer than normal, such as the ability to re-roll deep strike mishaps to try and get a more favorable mishap?

Immo: Except that it isn't? It's a Razorback with better front armor, effectively.

Rhino: IIRC, at one point anyway Marine Rhinos had one fire point but two Marines could fire out of it.

Faithful Citizens: I believe that's already in, but I'll take a look.

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:There is the problem though, some of them are giving well, thought out advice

Yes, and those that present a helpful, constructive post are getting responses from me giving my reasoning for the various decisions I've made, and even specifically asking them for their ideas on a subject that I know needs changing. Mind joining in on the conversations, instead of spamming this thread with whining about how I apparently don't listen to anyone?

Devastator wrote:you do not listen ANY post

Right you are. Carry on.

If you're never intending to play with this codex, why not post it up as a fanfiction somewhere? That way, nobody will complain about all the OP things, and you won't have your perfect codex insulted

Blessed Blade: I find the idea of this weapon op, but in practice, are any units over str 3? If they are, you should probably cut this crap, if not . . . well its a badass relic blade then.

Boltcannon: I still don't see why something bolt based suddenly gets stronger for no real reason. Just give them some autocannons and be done with it if you want str7 anti vehicle so bad.

Dropship: I like the pinning idea

72 inch melta cannon of doom? seriously?

1: Because I don't want to.

2: It's not perfect, nor did I ever claim it to be.

Melissia wrote:
Sanctified Sword / Blessed Blade: But then, if I made them more like Marine weapons, they'd be more like Marine weapons. Which is bad

Weapons are universal, tech is universal. It's how the imperium works. How an army uses that tech is important.

Marksman Autorifles / Sororitas Novitiates: I suppose I can do that, but then they'd need a reduction in points. Same with the shotgun special ammunition. Without either weapon they're kinda underwhelming.

They are 16 year old orphans. They should be underwhelming.

Boltcannon: Eh... Mortars still aren't bolter/flamer/melta weapons. Unless you wanted a flame-based mortar

Pillar of Fire type Mortar. Small blast ignores cover. Same as normal mortar. There you go.

Celestians: Unless I change Sarissas to count as a second CCW, I really don't want to drop the BP+CCW change.

Hmm. I'll think about it.

Vindictors: I'll see what I can work up for them.

Conflagrator Light Tank: It IS fairly different. It has a turret, a hull weapon, and can take sponsons. Which means it has no room for transport. Basically, as the Predator uses the Rhino STC to create a tank, so, too, does the Conflagrator use the Immolator STC to create a tank. The Sisters just have more use for a more mobile firebase even if it has less hitting power overall (in the sense that it can't have lascannons).

Okay, I can buy it.

Nightflame: What kind of fluff? Like a longer description of the unit, or an example of how they might be used, or something else?

Yeah, right now I just can't picture them. This may be my fault.

Land Raiders: Another reason I want to shy away from them is that supposedly they're restricted to only Marines anyway. Inquisitors can get them, but Inquisitors are bastards anyway.

hmm. Something new then. Vindicator Chassis a diff gun and Redeemer sponsons?

Dropship: I suppose... but I'd rather have something that makes deep striking a bit safer myself... maybe not completely removing the risk, but still safer than normal, such as the ability to re-roll deep strike mishaps to try and get a more favorable mishap?

Safe is for the weak of faith. The Emperor guides our drops, but the sight of us descending strikes fear in the hearts of the unfaithful and makes them tremble on the ground.

Rhino: IIRC, at one point anyway Marine Rhinos had one fire point but two Marines could fire out of it.

Yeah, they standardized, I believe.

pretre wrote:[snip]

Sanctified Sword / Blessed Blade: ... weapons aren't universal, and roughly the same tech doesn't always work in the same way when it isn't the exact same tech...

Furthermore, I quote second edition C:SoB in describing three examples of Blessed Weapons:
- The Axe of Retribution, a massive double-bladed power axe forged in honor of Saint Jason after his crusade against the Eldar on Huale.
- The Blade of Admonition, a perfectly forged power sword made from the finest materials known to man, whose mirror surface reflects the soul of its enemies.
- The Flail of Chastisement, a multi-limbed power flail, each individual head being a hook wreathed in a power field.

Each Blessed Weapon is unique.

Sororitas Novitiates: Lol... but they need to be useful as a unit.

Boltcannon: Heh... I'll think on it. I'm kinda shifting away from providing Sisters with any artillery, though...

Nightflame: Mn, I suppose not. I always imagined them as hardened veterans of many wars, who favor sneak attacks and ambush tactics because they do not believe the enemy is worthy of knowing that they are coming before they die.

Land Raiders: Vindicator is also a Marine vehicle... besides, you basically described the Heirophant, which isn't getting sponsons, but it's a siege tank like the Vindicator (but with a different, melta-based weapon).

Dropship: Safe is also for commanders that want to use the tactic to obtain victory.

Rhino: I can change it to two fire points on the rhino and none on the immolator if people think that'd be a better idea.

Melissia wrote:2: It's not perfect, nor did I ever claim it to be.

Hey, I agree with you there.

Melissia wrote:

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:There is the problem though, some of them are giving well, thought out advice

Yes, and those that present a helpful, constructive post are getting responses from me giving my reasoning for the various decisions I've made, and even specifically asking them for their ideas on a subject that I know needs changing. Mind joining in on the conversations, instead of spamming this thread with whining about how I apparently don't listen to anyone?

No, this is my last post in this thread, and hopefully, any thread that includes you. Good luck on getting any opponent to allow this abomination.

Good riddance.

So now that that subject is done, onto something I actually want to talk about!


The latest idea for changes to the Penitent Engines:

I dropped rampage. Instead, force weapons count as power weapons against them, and they have eternal warrior (this is mostly important for the Sword of Asur and Daemonhunters/Witch Hunters Force Weapons). Their statline is unchanged, however, so I'm unsure about the pricing.

in all honesty i believe it is well written, it just needs a few tweaks here and there as others have been commenting. though i must say if i were to go against you and you were using these rules i'd want to use my custom army (which it's weakness happens to be assaults unless you use the really expensive units), though i could see nids surviving just due to their sheer weight of numbers

Back from football, and its fething boiling outside -_-

Anywho, moving on:

The Ironclad Dread did not exist in the rules until fifth edition.

No, but an un-named armoured assault dreadnought did, they simply put a name to the face.
Alot of these "new units" are actually what used to be in fluff and pics, just simply put into model form finally.



Passion: Ill agree on this one then i guess, seems to make a little more sense, would just be nice with a universal rule rather than a dex special.

Blessed weapons: This is a problem, you cant really base the stats of a weapon on what people want to model, or to give them some fun building a new weapon.
Rules wise it has to fit the game, rather than the looks.
If it is going to do some serious damage, scale the points a tad and limit them.

Power stake: Keep in mind you wont just have a single attack with this, so chances are it will kill any model in a turn.
Maybe have it like this:

may choose how to attack:

1: As you have stated, but without the instant death.
2: May make a single attack, Any model wounded by this attack and not killed is removed from play.


by doing it that way if slows down the super killy effectiveness of it, but still allows it to have a use.
Also makes a player think about what they will be doing or assaulting that turn.

As it is its just too strong, EW needs to be there to help keep characters alive.
Its pretty rare as it is now, so it needs to be left alone.

MCBPs are used to represent a Heroine that has come from the ranks of Seraphim.

Vanguard get basic weapons as they are, they have to pay to upgrade, and its to a common place weapon.
They have also proved themselves in battle time and time again.


Again, i dont want to cause offence, unlike some who seem to have towards you, but you need to tone it down a tad.
Not everyone wants to attack your every post, you just seem to be hostile towards everyone.

Ive also seen alot of good posts and ideas ignored here, just try to keep an open mind, not everyone thinks the same, so people will have a very different view of things.

New units: Yes, but then Blessed Weapons technically speaking also have a lot of fluff behind them that isn't represented very well in the rules.

Blessed Weapons: They are pretty limiting. You pay as much for the first one as for a relic blade, but it's not as offensively powerful (only strength five), and the second one you pay five points more for than the Relic Blade, and it has the same strength. They ARE intended to be 0-1 per army though...

Power Stake: Hrm. That idea has merit.

MCBPs: Yes, but they're Vanguard. And therefor not applicable! MCBPs are only available to HQ units, after all (or that was the intent...)

An open mind is like a fortress with its gates unbarred and unguarded.

Melissia, fluff and game terms have to be different hun, if not, i think everyone would play marines of some form.
Describes marines as near impossible to kill and able to go against the odds of 100 enemies against 1 marine.
In game terms, this would be a piss take, so has to be cut down, hence why marines are strong, but not this strong.

Maybe add in a daemon weapon idea here.
Rolls of 1 to hit are struck against the user.
Fluff: Not good at this, so im just going with the fact that her faith built up to the point she lost all control, hacking away at everything in her path.

0-1 option, that i like, would give it a nice balance.


stake: Think of it this way, if your going to wound someone like dante a single time in 4 attacks, theres a 50% chance a 250 point model just got fethed over.

With the single attack, it drops that chance quite a bit, but then allows the player an option to try and wound him as normal.


MCBPs: You mean like honour guard for BA?
They too get no snazzy gear as basic, just simple vets who have kept the commander / model safe for god knows how long.
Maybe make it an upgrade that costs something, it doesent have to be a large amount, just something small to show they arent as standard.


Who is to say that a fortress with open gates has no traps left behind?
Was a common place strat. to lead enemy fighters into a castle courtyard, simply to trap them and ambush them

Also, i dont see why people have gone off the chain at you, just a case of talk nicely and no problems XD

On MCBPs: No, I don't mean like them. To be completely blunt and honest about my feelings on the subject, I don't even consider Marines at all; I don't care about them except as another enemy to be slaughtered mercilessly. They are boring, generic, and completely unlikeable and therefor I ignore them whenever I can. Not trying to be hostile or anything, just saying-- I don't really care what Marines have, what Marines think, etc, except in the case of making Sisters not like them (which is also my justification for the inclusion of the LRV).


As for the rest, I'll consider it. I don't think I'm gonna change Blessed weapons much, though, but the Stake? Definitely...

I was simply using a unit of vets as an example lol, relax
I could pick out any elite unit from any 40k army to use as an example, not just marines.

Also, on a side note, if you dislike spaz marines, why steal thier bikes?
I would have thought a small skimmer type bike (aka, jetbike) would work well for them.
Would possibly look better too and more dynamic.

May have to order some parts and put something together now, not a SoB player, but want to try my idea out lol.


Dont worry, i can understand you want them to be set apart from marines by miles, but they are still imperial to some form, so that would act as a base for thier weapons and armour.

Blessed weapon: Its not horribly over powered, just a bit stronger than most weapons so far.

Stake: Glad about that, just seemed far too strong as it was.


Edit: Quick thought, but not being a SoB player, im not known to the whole faith points thing.
Any way these can be used around the blessed weapon? (IE: uses some to work, or something along those lines)
That way its not a huge drawback, but it also makes it work fine.

I didn't? They aren't Marine bikes, as bikes are not unique to Marines.


Yes, Acts of Faith can be used with a Blessed weapon. Mind you, in order just to get up to merely S8 using Acts of Faith, the Sister has to become I1.


Faith Points are a unique element to the Sisters... in C:WH, you basically have one point per squad, and two points for a Canoness. And that's all you have for the entire game. Acts of Faith use up a faith point, and last only a single phase, and you must take a test to actually succeed the Act of Faith.

In C:WH, the test is based off of squad size-- the offensive Acts of Faith require a larger squad size to be more successful (roll equal to or under the squad size), and the defensive acts of faith require a smaller squad (roll equal to or over the squad size). This isn't all that complex, but people say it should be simplified, so I made it a simple leadership check instead.

The Acts of Faith themselves only last for a single phase, and often must be declared at the beginning of the phase. For example, Spirit of the Martyr, the infamous 3++ invulnerable save that people talk about, must be declared BEFORE the enemy declares targets if you want to use it in the shooting phase. So the opposing player chooses targets knowing which squads have the 3++ save and which don't.

ok, base models, which other army has an imperial bike?
Looted ones do not count for this since orks are stealing bastards.
Rough riders dont have bikes, they have those horses that you love soo much
All other bikes are of the jet variety.


I guess thats a downfall big enough, so now it is more like a fist in terms of use.

Ignore that then, if you cant regain faith points, having to use it to make a weapon work would be too much.

So all in all, the bigger the risk involved in the act, the more chance of it working?


So they pick around it.

In C:WH you CAN regain faith points because of Martyrdom. But I removed Martyrdom to balance out the changes to acts of Faith and because I don't like the rule to begin with.

But this isnt C:WH

Its your C:WH, which has no option of regaining those used faith points.
So all in all, i think thats about it lol.

Only real problem left is that 72" melta that will be causing a ton of damage early on in games.

Why did you remove Martyrdom? That is one of the most important things about sisters, it's one of their defining aspects that makes them unique.

Necrosis wrote:Why did you remove Martyrdom? That is one of the most important things about sisters, it's one of their defining aspects that makes them unique.

I already explained why in this thread....

1: I don't like it, because it encourages people to sacrifice their HQ units. Which is stupid, and goes contrary to the Sisters as an intelligent and capable force.
2: Balance.

۞ Jack ۞ wrote:Only real problem left is that 72" melta that will be causing a ton of damage early on in games.

It only has a 1/3rd chance of applying Melta.

Still though, its a ranged melta weapon, people will see it, then the range, then will have heart attacks lol.

Someone is bound to test run the list before long, ill get thier verdict on it.


Anyway, thats about it.
May have to get some painting done at some point today.
Nice talking to you anyway

It's okay, I tend to have that reaction every time I see the LRBT's main gun, which is utterly devastating to Sisters...

Try playing nids against BA raider spam hun
6 land raiders in 1 army.
Sure, i run a competative army, but anti-tank in nid armies is spread about, just have to hide and pick them off as you go.
Oh, and the land raiders deep strike.

Same when i run daemons, i guess ive picked the 2 armies that have pretty poor anti-tank lol.

Heh.

Regardless, something else that came up:

I've seen people whine about how Battle Sisters are BS4, and they claimed that somehow I was the one that made that change. Furthermore, other people have whined about how the veteran close combat fighters of the Orders Militant of the Adepta Sororitas-- IE, Celestians, Seraphim, and the like-- have WS4 and I4, and that somehow I was the one that made this change, too.

No. You people are wrong. Go get a copy of C:WH, and open it up to page 34. Read the entry for Battle Sister Squad, and look at the statline for the Battle Sister. Now, accept that you are wrong, and leave the subject well enough alone. In fact, you might notice that the statlines for the following units are entirely unchanged from C:WH:

- Celestian Squad
- Battle Sister Squad
- Seraphim Squad
- Dominion Squad
- Retributor Squad

They have new equipment, yes, but their actual statline is unchanged. Battle Sister Squads, for example, gained a bolt pistol and frag grenades. Bolt Pistols are standard equipment for Sisters in the fluff (alongside Bolters), and quite frankly if Imperial Guardsmen get frag grenades there's no reason Sisters wouldn't have them, too. Celetians gained the option to have BP+CCW, but that is both fluffy and not a statline change (they are close combat veterans, the most skilled fighters in an Order, they SHOULD have BP+CCW to emphasize this).

I like it. It's very good for a fandex, it holds the spirit of the SoB, and adds unique gear and units. Don't mind the haters too much, that's their usual reaction to 5th edition codex

A problem with the vengeance cannon is that, even though It's only melta on a hit, it's still AP 1 on anything it hits. I'm not sure if you already added points for that, just wanted to point that out.

Not so much added points for it, as it's part of the tradeoff for losing the Large Blast feature the LRBT normally gets.

So basically the difference between the two is:

Battle Cannon* is AP3, but Large Blast
Vengeance Cannon is AP1, Small Blast, Melta on direct hit.

I think it's a fair tradeoff. The LRBT can cause FAR more wounds to a large squad than the LRV.




*Mentioned for amusement's sake: a typo I had had this accidently be Cattle Cannon