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Necroman wrote:Anyways, I think a much better way the story would have gone would be this.

The Necrons and Blood Angels are fighting, the Tyranids land. The Necron lord calls for a truce, and they start fighting nids because the Necrons are desperate to keep a portal open for their forces to teleport in, while the Blood angels know the Tyranid force is too large for one side alone to defeat. They win against the Tyranids, but the Necrons turn on the Blood Angels. The Death Company, outraged by this betrayal, attacks the Necron portal directly and destroys it at the cost of their lives, leaving the Necrons without reinforcements. The Necrons eventually lose, the Blood Angels eventually win.

There. Fits both sides better and makes both sides not look like numbskulls, serves a purpose, has the Blood Angels win in the end (This IS their codex), and uses a specific Blood Angels unit so that it can't just by any Space Marine chapter. Of course, it isn't written to be an actual story (More of a summary).

I was on the fence, but since you put it like that I now think Matt Ward was onto something.

Anyhow, kudos to Xyptc for explaining how that tidbit of background fits into the larger background. We really need more posters like him, or at least fewer who use words like "lame" and "gay" in reference to the background.

I'll add that if anyone bothered to read the Necron background in the 5th edition rulebook they'd know that GW was re-writing the Necron background so that Necron Lords have specifically defined roles, so that a Necron Lord whose role it was to collect resources from a particular planet would do everything in his power to collect those resources in order to contribute to the upkeep of the Tombworld regardless of whether his actions actually contributed to the Tombworld.

Indeed, in Codex: Tyranids (I think) Necrons intervene to destroy a Hive Fleet attacking a Tau-held world, after which they wipe out the Tau.

Personally I like this bit of background because it has the combatants acting rationally: they abandon an immediate conflict in the face of a greater threat, and then withdrawal after they've ground themselves down defeating that threat.

Nurglitch wrote:I was on the fence, but since you put it like that I now think Matt Ward was onto something.

Either you got the wrong quote here, or my idea was so awful it convinced you to choose the other.

Nurglitch wrote:Indeed, in Codex: Tyranids (I think) Necrons intervene to destroy a Hive Fleet attacking a Tau-held world, after which they wipe out the Tau.

But you see, that fits the Necrons perfectly; they want the resources, so they stop the Tyranids from getting them.

The Necrons have an actual goal that is easily seen and that fits into their established fluff.

Nurglitch wrote:Personally I like this bit of background because it has the combatants acting rationally: they abandon an immediate conflict in the face of a greater threat, and then withdrawal after they've ground themselves down defeating that threat.

The problem here is that we don't know why; why did the Necrons fight the Tyranids instead of retreating, yet retreat when they were done? Why were they not turn on the Blood Angels afterwards, when Necrons generally don't have a problem with sacrificing mooks, as they have done before? We don't know if their numbers were down enough to really matter (Battle-weary was a bad choice of words on Ward's part). We don't know if the Lord and Space Marine leader had some sense of honor still left in them.

Speculation is nice if it isn't caused by actual holes in the plot. The description given makes it seem as if the Necrons and Blood Angels parted as best of pals, when that is obviously not the case. Unfortunately, the omission of details really stopped the fluff from making sense.

Finally: Why does the random story exist? It's doesn't reveal anything about the Blood Angels, it doesn't really explain anything on the part of the Crons, and it really seems like an unnecessary fusion.

Necroman wrote:Finally: Why does the random story exist? It's doesn't reveal anything about the Blood Angels, it doesn't really explain anything on the part of the Crons, and it really seems like an unnecessary fusion.

I would argue that, badly written as it is, this particular entry in the BA book is there to highlight something that's clearly often overlooked by we the playerbase and readers of GW materials; namely that, despite the brutality and futility of life in the grim future, sometimes people can make the smart, rationale choice and benefit from it accordingly. It serves the Blood Angels especially well, since they are being increasingly portrayed (by the players) as bloodthirsty maniacs akin to Khorne Berzerkers* rather than martial warriors who think through what they do. Perhaps the Necrons were an odd choice, but again it's not entirely out of place - the majority of recent Necron fluff entries have drawn attention to Necron Lords having personality, memory and flaw. Remember, both the Necrons and the Blood Angels are incredibly successful factions in their owns ways, and you've got to admit that occasionally being shown to act rationally does wonders for their credibility. I appreciate that WH40k is largely a PlanetOfHats, but we've got to remember that going too far down that path can really damage a setting - this sort of fluff entry slows that descent.

*Note on Khorne Berzerkers, even these frothing madmen have been given a little fleshing out beyond blind charges no matter the odds. There's a wonderful little passage on the latest CSM book which has a squad of them bunkered down in a ruin to avoid massive incoming fire, rather than blindly charging into it for no reason.

Xyptc wrote:It serves the Blood Angels especially well, since they are being increasingly portrayed (by the players) as bloodthirsty maniacs akin to Khorne Berzerkers* rather than martial warriors who think through what they do.

That is true, but don't they get enveloped by a sort of bloodlust when the fighting gets really tough?

Xyptc wrote:Perhaps the Necrons were an odd choice, but again it's not entirely out of place - the majority of recent Necron fluff entries have drawn attention to Necron Lords having personality, memory and flaw.

The Tau or Eldar probably would have been a better choice here, I mean, it's not unheard of for SM to cooperate with these races when it's the wiser choice given certain circumstances, but I do still have the question: Why were the Necrons there in the first place? As mentioned earlier, if they are sent to retrieve an artifact and/or 'cleanse' a planet, they usually follow through with it, and get it done.

Xyptc wrote:*Note on Khorne Berzerkers, even these frothing madmen have been given a little fleshing out beyond blind charges no matter the odds. There's a wonderful little passage on the latest CSM book which has a squad of them bunkered down in a ruin to avoid massive incoming fire, rather than blindly charging into it for no reason.

And lol. I love Khorne Berzerkers

There have been examples of Necrons having other goals than just "kill everything in sight" (Cain's Last Stand).

Maybe they awoke to recover or destroy an artifact that would benefit/harm their entire race. Now, while they were searching the planet, the Blood Angels arrive, tipped off by some of the local nobles, and assume that the Necrons are just out on their usual omnicidal spree. The Necrons will fight in self preservation, but this is still a setback they would much rather avoid.

So, when the Tyranids come, they really can't afford to get locked in an attrition war with an entire hive fleet if they're to have any chance of completing their objective in the foreseeable future. Logic dictates they join forces with someone. Logic also dictates Tyranids are the bigger threat, and that they make no deals, ever.

Hence, a truce is called, and after the joint victory, the Necrons sense that the Blood Angels are too weary to fight and happily disengage in pursuit of their endgame.

Now, I don't know about you, but the fact that Necrons would shy away from killing their allies makes them a bit more frightening to me. I mean, if they are willing to go out of their way and join forces with someone, then it's a pretty safe bet we won't like their plan when they put it in motion.

And if there is no bigger plan, and this was just some spark of the Necron Lord's martial honor, then it doesn't really mean they're less intimidating. It leaves out the possibility that the Necrontyr might have been an honorable race (albeit prone to bitterness), and it just makes what they are now a hell of a lot more scary.

As for Dante? He would most certainly join forces with anyone, if it benefits humanity. He's been defending it for so long, that he's become the SM version of a radical inquisitor. Minus the ruthlessness.

And it stands to reason that if you want to really show that someone is a badass in WH40K - where even guardsmen can singlehandedly kill dreadnoughts - you don't just give them something bigger to singlehandedly kill (Fulgrim and Calgar, here's looking at you, kids). You work on giving them audacity as well, and maybe a rebellious attitude. Grimnar, Tu'shan, Dante. Good examples of chapter masters. Calgar? Not so much...


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ExarchCain wrote:
That is true, but don't they get enveloped by a sort of bloodlust when the fighting gets really tough?

Yes, which is exactly why they struggle to do the honorable thing whenever else they can. They're probably aware that going too far down that path leads to a fat man on a throne of brass and skulls.

Xyptc wrote:I would argue that, badly written as it is, this particular entry in the BA book is there to highlight something that's clearly often overlooked by we the playerbase and readers of GW materials; namely that, despite the brutality and futility of life in the grim future, sometimes people can make the smart, rationale choice and benefit from it accordingly. It serves the Blood Angels especially well, since they are being increasingly portrayed (by the players) as bloodthirsty maniacs akin to Khorne Berzerkers* rather than martial warriors who think through what they do. Perhaps the Necrons were an odd choice, but again it's not entirely out of place - the majority of recent Necron fluff entries have drawn attention to Necron Lords having personality, memory and flaw. Remember, both the Necrons and the Blood Angels are incredibly successful factions in their owns ways, and you've got to admit that occasionally being shown to act rationally does wonders for their credibility. I appreciate that WH40k is largely a PlanetOfHats, but we've got to remember that going too far down that path can really damage a setting - this sort of fluff entry slows that descent.

*Note on Khorne Berzerkers, even these frothing madmen have been given a little fleshing out beyond blind charges no matter the odds. There's a wonderful little passage on the latest CSM book which has a squad of them bunkered down in a ruin to avoid massive incoming fire, rather than blindly charging into it for no reason.

Dang, I can't argue with logic here.

It's the rational thing to do for the Blood Angels. They save some of their own, the Necrons leave, etc. The Necrons though? It'd have to mean the lord felt some sort of reason to keep its soldiers from dying, or its goal was already done. Which could be interesting, I guess.

Necroman wrote:

Dang, I can't argue with logic here.

It's the rational thing to do for the Blood Angels. They save some of their own, the Necrons leave, etc. The Necrons though? It'd have to mean the lord felt some sort of reason to keep its soldiers from dying, or its goal was already done. Which could be interesting, I guess.

It makes the Necrons a little more scary with the thought that they are now able to plan and reason beyond their masters reckoning.
It could make them a little more... devious. Iunno.

Bottom line is: now they can fully realise the true extent of their powers, and are probably able to more fully utilise the resources they have at hand, which will probably be reflected upon in the new codex, with new units etc.

Flayed Ones plastics would be pretty cool IMO, imagine the conversion possibilities!

ExarchCain wrote:Flayed Ones plastics would be pretty cool IMO, imagine the conversion possibilities!

I'd personally prefer plastic immortals. Plastic flayed ones are already easily possible with converting Necron warriors and adding greenstuff. Immortals? Not so much.

Necroman wrote:I'd personally prefer plastic immortals. Plastic flayed ones are already easily possible with converting Necron warriors and adding greenstuff. Immortals? Not so much.

True, mind you, they pretty need all their models updated, in fact, the Wraith models are pretty cool, they could definitely make plastics of those.

I find it really hard to imagine Necrons allying with anyone. They exist to exterminate all life!!! In fact Tyranids are the only things they don't fight because they also extrminate all life. Although Tyranids are alive the Necrons seem to be aware that if The Tyranids ate the galaxy they would simply move on. leaving them with a nice sterile galaxy so they could take this Eon off from their job's as Galactic Life exterminators.

p.s. Blood Angels fall under catagory of living things.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:I find it really hard to imagine Necrons allying with anyone. They exist to exterminate all life!!! In fact Tyranids are the only things they don't fight because they also extrminate all life. Although Tyranids are alive the Necrons seem to be aware that if The Tyranids ate the galaxy they would simply move on. leaving them with a nice sterile galaxy so they could take this Eon off from their job's as Galactic Life exterminators.

p.s. Blood Angels fall under catagory of living things.

In the Tyranid codex, the Necrons actually fought against them... So that they could get all the tasty souls of the Tau the nids were attacking. Yum.

Necrons have no use for souls...

Ya were's all this Necrons eat souls stuff coming from? That's Dark Eldar. The red harvest was to find Pariahs I thought.

Nurglitch wrote:Necrons have no use for souls...

The C'tan eat souls like fat kids eat twinkies. Necrons have plenty use for souls.

Try reading p.26 "Visions of the Sleeping God", Codex: Necrons. Souls are specifically what the sleeping god in question is not consuming. Honestly, have you even read the codex?

Nurglitch wrote:Necrons have no use for souls...

Nurglitch wrote:Try reading p.26 "Visions of the Sleeping God", Codex: Necrons. Souls are specifically what the sleeping god in question is not consuming. Honestly, have you even read the codex?

I'm confused. So you think necrons have no use to gain new souls? or have their own old ones?

Dr. Cheesesteak wrote:

Nurglitch wrote:Necrons have no use for souls...

Nurglitch wrote:Try reading p.26 "Visions of the Sleeping God", Codex: Necrons. Souls are specifically what the sleeping god in question is not consuming. Honestly, have you even read the codex?

I'm confused. So you think necrons have no use to gain new souls? or have their own old ones?

Necrons (or more accurately, the C'tan) harvest and devour "life force" (whatever that is). The important thing is thhat this "life force" is in our dimension, where as the "soul" (in WH40k) is found in the Warp. The C'tan do not like/cannot touch the Warp. Proof of this is found within the Necron Codex, which discusses Daemons feasting on the souls set adrift in the Warp by the Dragon feasting on humans on Mars.

Whether or not the Necrons have "souls" left inside them is not really known one way or another, but it has never (to the best of my knowledge) been suggested that they (like their C'tan masters) would have any use for Warp-based souls. If you can direct me to text which features the Necrons harvesting "souls" (actual souls, not simply the word soul as metaphor for poor unfortunate victim) then we have more to consider...

I gotta chime in and say that this fluff is just awful.
Necrons have nothing to lose by fighting BAs to the last man. Even if they get wiped out, they just download and repair. BAs, however, don't recover so easily and Necrons know this.

I suppose perhaps we could be missing pieces from the new Necron fluff... But as far as Necrons as we know them, this story is Goto quality stuff.

Archonate wrote:
Necrons have nothing to lose by fighting BAs to the last man. Even if they get wiped out, they just download and repair. BAs, however, don't recover so easily and Necrons know this.

While it's true that they have nothing to lose and nothing to fear, we only hear this story from the Imperial perspective, which assumes the Necrons are too weary to fight on.
Let me rephrase that. If the Necrons didn't break the truce, there is a perfectly valid reason for that. They had more to gain by not attacking than otherwise. Whether that was just time and effort or whether there really was a bigger fish that they were concerned with, we don't know.

We also don't know if the Necrons attacked the Blood Angels in the first place, or whether they just found out that they'd waken up on an Imperial world, when big, red Land Raiders suddenly began to fall out of the sky, shooting first and asking questions later. Because if it's the latter version, things suddenly make a lot more sense.

I think the flying Land Raiders scared them off.