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Sanctjud wrote:It's a glass hammer... which essentially means everybody weights the two aspects differently.

It's a laughable kill point for some.
Dawn of War screws it.
Terrain dependant.
Opponent dependant.
Requires an opponent who doesn't know what it is capable of and wants an opponent to bunch up.

QFT - If I play against one I make sure it dies turn 1. Which takes fire off other targets but hey that's your tactical decision.

OverwatchCNC wrote: I write about how using 2-3 Thunderfire Cannons can be a good "bluff" style unit because they are cheap and your opponent can't ignore them because they shell out too much death.

It's not that they deal out too much death (because they don't) so much as it is good for throwing your opponent off-balance. Off-balance opponents do stupid stuff. Thus the point of a nuisance weapon.

I mean, if you turn on ignores cover, they still get their armor save, and if you turn on high strength, they still get their cover save, etc. Really, it's being able to say "oh, except you don't get a cover save" that makes your opponent question staying in cover, or saying "if you move your vehicle, it might be immobilized" that gets your opponent to question moving their vehicles.

It's not particularly effective in kill-power, but it can be unsettling in the psychological game, especially against newer players. Combine the cannon with 10x squads of deepstriking terminators and hordes of stuff coming out of drop pods, and the fear factor alone may well shake your opponent's strategy to bits.

The cannon has potential to shell out death. I once dropped 30 wounds on a tac squad after wrecking the transport.

Honersstodnt wrote:

Its also fair to note, that if your playing a foot ork player, the game will take significantly longer to play if you field a thunderfire, because he has to ensure he keeps his boys spread out. I know its a wierd reason to not field thunderfires, but it really makes fighting foot orks faster if you don't have them.

Bad call, every army needs anti infantry blast weapons. The hassle you are taling about only occurs if the ork player is a muppet and insists the maximises every orks base distance. Instead just move the orks and keep them spread apart, it doesnt take long. Play easy on the basing, if it looks like its in formation assume it ias, if it looks like it isnt remind him and let him nudge the model in a bot. Be fair play fair ansd you can deploy spread out horde units without taking extra time to move them.

Now that point is coverted you want the orks tio be spread about. Every army needs blast weapons to accomplish this. This is why I learned to love grenade launchers laclustre though they appear because they spread about my opponents gaunts. No blast means a concentrated enemy, this is bad news if you are facing an assault army. If a mob or brood of 30 models spreads out only a small fraction of the whole will be able to get into combat in an assault. Sure the unit may be max size but if it is large and spread out it will act as a unit half its size.
Play this to your advantage.

So if a Thunderfire is what it takes to spread about orks or nids take one, it may well be worth it. Marines have other options Vindicators come to mind, but noone wastes Vindies on gaunts/boyz unless they have nothing else to shoot at. Typhoons are expensive missile launchers are usually firing krak. Its up to you, but I can see a niche.

Ailaros wrote:

OverwatchCNC wrote: I write about how using 2-3 Thunderfire Cannons can be a good "bluff" style unit because they are cheap and your opponent can't ignore them because they shell out too much death.

It's not that they deal out too much death (because they don't) so much as it is good for throwing your opponent off-balance. Off-balance opponents do stupid stuff. Thus the point of a nuisance weapon.

I mean, if you turn on ignores cover, they still get their armor save, and if you turn on high strength, they still get their cover save, etc. Really, it's being able to say "oh, except you don't get a cover save" that makes your opponent question staying in cover, or saying "if you move your vehicle, it might be immobilized" that gets your opponent to question moving their vehicles.

It's not particularly effective in kill-power, but it can be unsettling in the psychological game, especially against newer players. Combine the cannon with 10x squads of deepstriking terminators and hordes of stuff coming out of drop pods, and the fear factor alone may well shake your opponent's strategy to bits.

None of these points apply versus orks and nids.

If you use no cover save mode vs those opponents they effectively don't have armour.
If they do have armour you can potentially kill them by using tremor which also stymies their advance.

Furthermore 4 BS4 blast templates will kill a lot of orks/bugs.

Yes, it isn't a tank killer but there are other units in the Marine list that can open the cans. The TFC deals with the contents. I think they'd be a fine addition to any gunline marine list.

Glass cannons are units that are easily destroyed for the point value sunk into them. A TFC deployed out in the open with no cover is a glass cannon. A TFC is not a glass cannon if it's deployed in 3+ cover which the techmarine can provide. A 100 point unit with a 3+ cover save is far from indestructible, but it can not be reliably destroyed with light amounts of firepower. Add to the equation a devastator squad or scout sniper squad with cammo cloaks and a 2+ cover save the TFC is not only a durable unit for it's point value, but it protects other units increasing their durability.

I'm hearing a lot of talk about how useless a TFC is against IG, and I must disagree. Against IG a thunderfire is only as good as it's used by the player. Let's review some of the ways to use a TFC against IG starting with the worst ways to use one, and ascending to the best ways to use one.

#6 Scratching at the AV12 front armor of a Chimera: This is a nearly useless and pathetic use of a thunderfire, we all know how the math hammer works. Before a SM player ever shoots at the front armor of a Chimera they need to stop and ask themselves a few questions.

Are there any better targets that I can shoot at? Take a better look at the battlefield and look for a juicer target.
Are there any other guns in my army I can shoot before the TFC? If there is anything that can pop a Chimera that has not shot yet shoot it first.
If the answer to those 2 questions is no then the last question should be the following: Where did I screw up? If a SM player finds them self in this situation the SM player screwed up. It doesn't mean they are a stupid noob or a bad player, it just means they made a mistake with their TFC and/or they have been out played by a skilled IG player. As long as a SM player learns from their mistakes they will continue to improve.

#5 Attempting to immobilize vehicles with a ground burst: This is only by the narrowest of margins better than scratching at the AV12 front armor of a Chimera. At best the ground burst will catch 2 or 3 chimeras if they are clustered together, or a single Valkarie. The Valk is probably the better option because it's most important asset to the IG army is the ability to move 24" with a scoring unit inside on turn 5, but it'st still not a good option. Once again ask the questions.

Are there any better targets that I can shoot at? Take a better look at the battlefield and look for a juicer target.
Are there any other guns in my army I can shoot before the TFC? If there is anything that can pop a Chimera that has not shot yet shoot it first.

#4 Coup De Grace a squad that has already taken 25% casualties: When a Chimera explodes it will usually wound 6 or 7 members of the squad inside. The IG player will allocate the wounds to normal grunts leaving the more dangerous special or heavy weapons untouched. A 3 man vet squad with 3 melta guns has as many melta gun shots as a 10 man vet squad with 3 melta guns. Being inside the ruins of an exploded vehicle they have a 4+ cover save which gives them reasonable protection against bolters and dakka preds. Against STR5 ignore cover airburst rounds they get wounded on a 2+ and die with no armor/cover saves. Depending on the location and fire power of the squad (say 3 melta guns and they are close to a land raider) this use of a TFC may be a better use than any subsequent uses I will list.

#3 Blow up a Chimera: Bla Bla Bla 4 Str 6 shots against AV 12 is useless and pathetic. Yes 4 STR 6 shots against AV 12 is useless and pathetic, but 4 STR 6 shots against AV10 is better than 2 STR 8 shots against AV10 and guess what Vehicle has a side AV of 10? If you fight Chimera Spam there will be plenty of opportunities to get a side shot on a Chimera if a TFC is deployed on a flank of the battlefield. Once a TFC gets a side shot on a Chimera it has a better chance of popping one than a Typhoon. Also note the effective range of melta vets 2D6 Pen is about 3" from the front of the Chimera, and the maximum range is about 9" from the front of the Chimera because the fire points are located about 3" from the front of the Chimera. That means Chimeras will often need to turn to the side for the extra 3" of range giving side or rear shots to the TFC.

#2 Kill and entire melta vet squad: If a Vehicle is destroyed by a roll of 5 on the penetrating hit table a Chimera only has 1 access hatch at the rear that 10 closely packed vets will be pouring out of. At this point the only thing they have going for them is the wrecked Chimera will give them a 4+ cover save. That won't matter when a STR5 airburst round starts wounding them on a 2+ and kills them with no armor/cover save. They might try to cluster really tight behind the Chimera to try to hide from LOS, but if the Tech Priest is on the 2nd level of a ruins clustering in an attempt to hide will only make things worse for the melta vets.

#1 Blow up a Chimera and kill a melta vet squad both at the same time: A Chimera can only move 6" and have melta vets fire from the access hatch that's 3" behind the front of the Vehicle, but it can move 12" and disembark the melta vets another 2" plus 1 more " for the base of the vet. That's going from losing 3" to gaining 9" for a 12" gain. It's often called the ass attack because the vehicle has to spin around and face it's rear to the enemy lines so that the melta vets can disembark towards their target. Many IG players are quick to give up the protection of a Chimera if they feel they need the 3 melta gun shots ASAP. A TFC can make that a costly decision by firing a STR6 ground burst at the back of the Chimera catching the Chimera's AV10 & the metla gun squad clustered at the access hatch in the templates. Resolve damage against the Chimera 1st in case it explodes and catches the vets, and when time comes to resolve damage on the vets they are probably not in cover. It's an ugly attack that has a reasonable chance of killing both the Chimera and the melta vets.

Thank you Schadenfreude, you saved me a ton of typing. The TFC is probably one of the most under or miss utilized weapons in the SM arsenal, when used/deployed correctly they are devastating and opponents who are used to the TFCs capabilities will spend 2-300 points of FP to kill it, so at the least they tie up inits from range and if it's not dead it will (when utilized correctly) kill a lot of little plastic army men.

"devastating"?

Schaedenfreude just showed how worthless it is with one exception: very tightly packed T3 units.

Remember, you're throwing out SMALL blast templates which means that your opponent can easily make you only score a couple of hits per shot. Given that they still get armor or cover, it's going to take a single TFC quite a while to kill off a unit, especially as the effectiveness of blast weapons goes down once a unit starts taking casualties.

Really, the only time the TFC is worth anything is when you catch your opponent flat-footed like right after they've deepstruck or when crawling out of a wrecked transport, or the like. Otherwise, as mentioned, it causes horde commanders who are extra concerned about casualties to spread out a little more (or cause them to make silly decisions a la my last post).

The TFC is very good and much more versatile than first realized. The cannon can put a torrent of wounds on MEQ units. Why would they be bunched up? Because the Long Fangs want to remain in cover and need to scrunch a little closer than normal to do it. Spread out in the open and the AP3 weapons take down the Long Fangs, scrunch up in cover and the TFC lays the str 6 pain onto the unit.

The TFC is great for wiping out those IG scoring units that come out of a transport and 'go to ground' every turn for a 3+ cover save. The TFC also takes care of Pathfinders in cover and Lootas behind a screen of Orks. No other weapon in the Marine codex can do this as easy and with such few points taken up.

I never base my army selection on whether it can kill a Chimeara. That is not a wise choice. If your current meta has 14+ armor 12 vehicles driving around then blow them up with the other 1750pts in the army. Those tank busting weapons will have little effect on the IG vet squad that is cowering behind a busted Vendetta in cover. The TFC will.

The superior range and small profile make the TFC easy to hide and protect. Not going first and need the TFC? Park it behind a LR first turn and fire it with ease as the LR drives away. Park the cannon in a corner deployment and watch the enemy shots fall short. Not every board has ruins to reinforce, but not every scenario allows the enemy to park an autocannon heavy weapon squad 40" away either.

The TFC is a problem solver and a game winner vs. certain units. In 9 games at last years Ard Boyz, I lost the cannon twice and only once did the Techmarine go with it. The TFC is not an easy KP to lose. It's a great gun.

I get good mileage out of mine by saving it for the end of my shooting phase and targeting a squad that was forced out a transport because it wrecked or exploded. Sometimes the terrain also forces an opponent to bunch up more than he wanted to. I've also found it good for going after SW Long Fang packs as even at max dispersion, causing 2-4 hits that wound on a 2+ and kill an important model 66% of the time makes it easier to take them down.

{EDIT} And fully agree with Darth Diggler.

Ailaros, why are you hating so much on the cannon?

Is it by far the best heavy support choice in the SM arsenal? No it isn't. But it is a good choice especially in my area. Not many people see the TFC and do not know what kind of punch it can pack. The cannon works well against MEQ's too. In my experience with marines, I get killed not with battlecannons and plasma, but wound saturation. Cause me to take soo many saves I fail enough. The cannon can do just that to many types of infantry.

Do I shoot my cannon at vehicles? Only when there is nothing else to shoot. I use speeders, vindis, tac squads, land raiders and other good things to open up the cans. Then use the TFC to hit the goodies inside of those cans.

Really the best reason to take it IMO is that many people do not see the cannon and therefore do not know what it is capable of. All of us know what how killy dakka preds can be and vindis, because we see these on the battlefield all the time. But how many TFC's do we see fielded. The only other TFC than my own I have seen fielded is one of my friends. I have played many SM players and they have the same opinion as others in this forum ("the TFC sux!!!!). After a game with them, their opinion usually changes after seeing how destructive it can be.

@DarthDiggler:
I don't know what kind of terrain you guys play, but taking cover doesn't auto-mean bunching up.

In addition, cover is not hard to 'make', and not everyone uses Sternguard, Stormtroopers, or Thousand Sons (with respect to the AP3 comment).

TFC is great at taking units that rely on cover saves, that is true, and it's essentially their role.

Park it behind a LR first turn and fire it with ease as the LR drives away.

Risk: the LR being immobilized or wrecked, in which case you still waste a turn.

Park the cannon in a corner deployment and watch the enemy shots fall short.

Juicey target for Outflankers 2/3 of the time, it's only really good on spearhead, other wise, the opponent can deploy pretty close to it and not in cross table positions.

The TFC is not an easy KP to lose.

Just to reiterate, YMMV.
Opponents who know what it is capable of will down it...and the durability of it is measure differently from person to person.
If it can be downed by a bolter round (no matter how unlikely) and can't hide...it's fragile. You can have saves and such, but generally you go into a game assuming thing will die, and it doesn't take much with respect to this unit.

So... back at Glass Hammer that fills a specific niche. Which is more of a 'taste' matter for people who use it.
____________________
Though on a less serious note:
I don't suggest this gun if you and your scatter die are mortal enemies.


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After a game with them, their opinion usually changes after seeing how destructive it can be.

It's a funny thing cause I get the same reaction when I use Lesser Daemons, Possessed, and Chaos Dreads.

Even with only three hits per blast, you're still firing four of those suckers. 12 wounds caused by a single volley from a 100 point unit is nothing to shirk at.

Blah, blah, scatter, blah, blah, my epeen is bigger, blah blah.

It's a fun unit to use, and won't win you a grand tournament. The end.

As a long time TFC player myself, I agree with Darthdiggler.

You have plenty of options to kill tanks in the Marine Codex, twin-linked melta, rifleman dreads, and the various other quality shooting options, you don't need every unit in the game to contribute to tank busting.

However, once tanks start hurting, follow up Thunderfire Cannon shots can make a huge difference.

I can't tell you how many infantry platoons have decimated from the ignore cover shot, or the amount of deamon units that have been immediately taken off the table because I forced them to test on their native save.

The Thunderfire most definitely has a place.

little known fact. Bolster defenses only works on Ruins.

this limits were you place it unless you always have a ruined building in your deployment zone and in the corners every single game.

play on a forest map and bolster defenses is useless

Yep also only one can effect one ruin at a time and the Techmarine doesn't have to stay there. Also that it can be deployed on the top floor, but lacks the ability to move up or down floors.

Also they open up the option to take a Servitor squad, but it cannot join unless the cannon is gone.

Servitors could be used to give it a backup plan if the cannon gets destroyed, or simply keep them cheap and use them for their servo arm attacks. Generally though the points are better off on another unit but at least you have the option if you really wanted to.

I agree with Darth and Mahu. I've seen it in action, and you definitely have to respect the TF's ability to screw with your armies plans of global domination...LOL. I'd definitely field one in a vanilla army if I played one...hell I'd love it if my Templars could get one.

pdawg517 wrote:Ailaros, why are you hating so much on the cannon?

I don't hate the TFC. It has a role as a harassing weapon. My bother is people who assume that it does monster damage, when it can only do even decent damage in a small range of circumstances, and very little in non-ideal circumstances.

As a marine player, I would consider taking one, but not for its damage output.

TheRhino wrote:Even with only three hits per blast, you're still firing four of those suckers. 12 wounds caused by a single volley from a 100 point unit is nothing to shirk at.

I mean, do we really need to mathhammer?

Out of 4 shots, 3 are going to hit more or less square on for 9 hits. Assuming the cover-ignoring shot, then 6 wound and 4 make it through GEq armor. The next turn, you're only attacking 6 models, which means it's easier to miss entirely, and you get fewer hits when you do land on troops. The next turn you're killing more like 3 and the turn after more like 2.

Why are people defining spending at least three turns of shooting to wipe out a single 50 point guard squad (of many, many guard squads) as "good"?

Ailaros wrote:Why are people defining spending at least three turns of shooting to wipe out a single 50 point guard squad (of many, many guard squads) as "good"?

Why are you shooting at the same, depleted squad for three turns with a single unit?

Also, how many times do you want to tempt the Dice Gods with the Morale tests invoked by those losses?

I'm with TheRhino, Shadenfruede, MonsterRain, Darthdiggler, Panzerleader, Mahu (etc.) on this one. It can be incredibly useful against units in cover, particularly ones with enhanced cover saves (like Scouts and Pathfinders, or really anything going to ground). There are multiple units like this out there which can make themselves near-impossible to shift off an objective unless you assault them. But with a TFC you can do it in shooting.

Even if that's not the situation you're facing, with S6 it can put a pile of wounds on a bunched-up marine unit. Definitely far more than any other 100pt unit. The mechanized metagame just means that the TFC is the "2" part of a 1-2 punch combination. Something else pops the transport, then the TFC pounds (and often, in the case of non-MEQ troops, completely eliminates) the squad which just got out. In addition to that, and tight areas of cover where your opponent bunches up a squad, you can also use tank shocks to force squads to bunch up. A good round of Hits against a tightly-packed unit can cause 20+ hits. Just one round like that can easily justify the points & HS slot for the TFC.

Shep wrote:

TheRhino wrote:I dunno. The S6 shot can still glance AV12 (Chimeras) and pen AV11 or less (Rhinos, Speeders, etc etc). You get four shots, with a BS of 4 to reduce scatter to stay on top of the metal box.
The Tremor shells also force a 1/6 chance of immobilizing ANY vehicle if it attempts to move. If even one sliver of one of those four templates touches the targeted vehicle, it must make the terrain test, as the description of the Tremor shot says "hit", not "wounded" or "damaged."

I understand these points. I play mech guard and I have a friend with a thunderfire fetish. Strength 6 can glance a chimera, which is just about as important as saying that a railgun can kill a devastator marine in cover. Would you prefer to shoot a 90 point land speeder typhoon at my chimera? Or would you prefer the 4 shot thunderfire cannon?

The tremor shot is also another thing that CAN be used to affect vehicles, but now you've tossed away your strength 6 for strength 4. That strength 6 had the possibility of immobilizing the vehicle anyway.

Either way, there is SOMETHING you can do with the thunderfire cannon if there are no infantry on the table. But if there was infantry on the table that would be your preferred shot, and there are MANY other ways to spend 100 points that are better at killing tanks.

Like I said before, in a world with more infantry, the thunderfire is king. But as of now, both the strength 6 shot and the tremor shot are VERY low percentage consolations for you not being presented with the appropriate target.

Actually, I find that provided you can cover your AT bases elsewhere, the Thunderfire can still have its role; you *know* how Exploded transports have this tendency to result in all the infantry being very clumped up in prepackaged template formation? Ork Battlewagons and Guard Chimeras are two of the prime examples. Seems an awful shame to let such good shots go to waste, no? (And yes, I do use Grotzooka Kans in my armies for this reason; Lootas pop transport, Kans pop infantry).

I've played against them several times and wasn't impressed.

When all my guys are in rhinos (as they usually are), they bounce the templates like spitwads. Since it doesn't have indirect fire, I put anybody I don't want to get shot by it (scouts) out of its LoS. Since it can't move & shoot, there's time to move out of LoS again if it tries to move for an angle.

Mostly though it has the same weakness as all other artillery--most of the hits on the unit are pretty likely to kill the gun. Most armies have some kind of high-volume, str6+ heavy weapon with a range (or mobility) enough to overwhelm the 3+ cover save. The tech marine is hard to kill. But one burst from a hydra, assault cannon, typhoon or scatterlaser will nearly always kill the gun. A predator or even a whirlwind in cover is much harder to kill--and cheaper.

The tremor round on vehicles thing doesn't impress me at all as a good use of 100 points and a heavy slot. Even if your vehicles don't have dozer blades and you don't feel like risking the roll, all you have to do is not move for a turn.

Against footslogging orks, probably very effective.

I think the thunderfire is one of the things that keeps regular space marines strong. I used two in a 2500 vulkan list I threw together and they worked like a charm.


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Adding on to my above post several hours later.....
I recall an incident in which a pair of my land speeders killed an ork battle wagon, and the thunderfire obliterated the squad that was in the wreckage. For 240 land speeders and thunderfires make one hell of a tag team.

I recall an incident in which my Ork Trukk shot its Big Shoota at a Thunderfire cannon and my opponent failed his 3+ cover save.

If you focus on the offensive power of the TF cannon, then just like the Executioner or other multi-blast units it looks absolutely fantastic. Where the TF cannon begins chalking up tallies in the 'points against' category is that it occupies a coveted Heavy Support slot in a marine list, and a hard sneeze will kill it. If a decent opponent decides that he wants your TF dead, he'll shoot it and it'll disappear. Even with 3+ cover, a single Dakka Dread has better than even odds of knocking it out.

If your TF cannon sits on top of a ruin and rampages all over your opponent, dumping 4 shots into clustered infantry all game then it'll decimate an army. But realistically, what player is going to allow that? And if they do allow it, is a thunderfire really going to make a difference against such a poor opponent?