Top tier tourney armies

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**radiohazard**

incarna wrote:
radiohazard wrote:@ Incarna...

Dark Eldar don't struggle at tournaments. They have consistant high places on the final days.

Also, the fact they are a very powerful army is quite possibly one of the reasons why we have waited over a decade for a new codex.

BTW Tantras... what is LoS spam???

In my experience at about a couple dozen tournaments since the release of 5th ed (including Adepticon and ‘Ard Boyz) I have yet to see a Dark Eldar army place. I suspect both our experiences are based on anecdotal evidence so we may have to simply agree to disagree on this one.

I think LOS spam was meant to be Lash of Submission but I can't say for sure - I don't consider 2 Lashes as "spam"

NP.

We have a fair amount of DE players in both my metas and two of them have amazing w/l records in friendly and tourney level games placing top ten in many european tourneys.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Dashofpepper wrote:OP:

IF we're talking about a birthday gift, then I would encourage you to get something new and relevant that will last a long time:

1. Marines: The attraction of getting some marines is that you can make a DIY chapter and paint them however you want, and play whatever chapter you want at any give time. If I ever decide to pick up a marine army this is what I'm going to do - the marines are all going to get painted however I want, not in keeping with any chapter aesthetics so that I can be Space Wolves one day, Blood Angels the next with the substitution of a character or two and some tanks. This literally gives you the ability to gain 6-7 armies at once. Chaos marines, Blood Angels, Space Wolves, Ultramarines, Dark Angels, White Scars (maybe not so much White Scars) but you gain so much.

2. Imperial Guard: Regardless of how you spin it, mechanized IG is a top tier army. They won 'Ard Boyz last year, and a mechanized IG army is usually never far from the top of a standing list.

3. Orks: Orks are incredibly fun to play, incredibly powerful in their ability to be themed into literally different armies (like marines) within the same codex; there are so many different and viable builds to make from the same codex, and many of them are absolutely brutal. I travel around the country to GTs and stuff with my Orks and while there are a couple armies (Mech IG, Space Wolves) that I respect, the only army I actually fear is Dark Eldar.

While Dark Eldar are incredibly potent (see my signature), they are also supposedly next in line for a new codex and models, making any purchase you get now quickly obsolete. The current models are poorly designed, antiquated, look terrible, and to make a sweeping generalization....the only people who still play Dark Eldar are the hardcore DE fans.

I hope that helps

Ah-ha...

You are a legend Dash.

I narrowed down my choices to Marines, IG, Orks and DE, but didn't think about the DIY chapter that can count as anything.

Thank you muchly.

**Melissia**

I recommend not getting Marines.

But hten if you got me Marines for my birthday, I'd put them up on ebay within a week...

**radiohazard**

Not a Marine fan eh???

**Kilkrazy**

incarna wrote:
Nitros14 wrote:How many lashes do you consider spam?

I’d say 3 is the minimum requirement to qualify as spam.

Have you ever heard the term “Farseer spam” or “Librarian Spam?” or “Res Orb Spam”?

I'd say it depends on the item being spammed.

When the Chaos book was new, Twin Lash Prince Spam became a standard phrase. Many players clearly recognised it as a so-called abusive build.

Basically 'spam' means having more of whatever it is than is really good for game balance.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

radiohazard wrote:Not a Marine fan eh???

More likely it's because there are already far too many SM armies around.

There's another thread which is about finding plausible fluff excuses for the numerous SM-on-SM games that people have to play.

**Inquisitor_Syphonious**

Top'ns:
Dark Eldar
Mechanized Imperial Guard
Orks (Only a few flavors)
Mechanized Eldar
Chaos Space Marines

**Monster Rain**

Go with Space Marines!

Mine are either Iron Hands successors with the Vanilla Codex or I'm doing a bit of conversion to make them into their newest incarnation:

The Butane Panthers! (BA counts-as)

Dash was dead on.

**Tantras**

I often find that all the armies have a facet that isn't widely played... I'm about to start a new Space Marine army, but it's exclusively scouts.

Ok, you'd never win a high points value tournament that way, but at lower points values (750 - 1000pts) it's extremely competitive... and something new and fun.

**Skarboy**

Tiers are a flawed notion. Aside from the helpless out of date tiers, both strong and weak lists can be made from ANY codex and you're either a good general or you're not. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian, as the saying goes.

If the point of this thread is to figure out which codex is the most easily competitive or breakable, I guess that's Guard, but they're hardly the auto-win that people think they are.

IMO, the "tiers," if you will:

SEMI IDIOT-PROOF TO BE COMPETITIVE, AND VICIOUS IF RUN WELL:
IG
Space Wolves
Blood Angels

SOLID/AVERAGE CODEX, BUT REQUIRES SOME SKILL AND LIST BUILDING:
Space Marines
Orks
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines

LIMITED/OUTDATED CODEX, BUT CAN BE TWEAKED TO RUN WELL:
Dark Eldar
Tau
Eldar
Witch Hunters
Daemon Hunters
Dark Angels

CRAP CODEX, SO DON'T COME BRAGGING ABOUT HOW YOU BEAT NOOBS WITH YOUR LOUSY ARMY:
Necrons

**radiohazard**

I've narrowed my choices to an airbourne "Catachan" army or a DIY SM chapter.

I have recently become obsessed with films based on the Vietnam war or films like it thanks to a paper I wrote on Apocalypse Now and it's making me want Catachans.

**KamikazeCanuck**

Seems the only thing people agree on is Necrons don't win...

**Tantras**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Seems the only thing people agree on is Necrons don't win...

I was just thinking that - but it's true. I got stung with Necrons as well, I bought a bunch of them off eBay without reading the rules when I started last year. There's nothing like that feelin when you realise what you've just bought is complete dog gak!

**KamikazeCanuck**

Tantras wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Seems the only thing people agree on is Necrons don't win...

I was just thinking that - but it's true. I got stung with Necrons as well, I bought a bunch of them off eBay without reading the rules when I started last year. There's nothing like that feelin when you realise what you've just bought is complete dog gak!

Well their codex makes them sem like a winner except for that phase out rule but I guess they don't work in actual battle to good. However I've only fought necrons once and I got slaughtered.

**Inquisitor_Syphonious**

Skarboy wrote:Tiers are a flawed notion. Aside from the helpless out of date tiers, both strong and weak lists can be made from ANY codex and you're either a good general or you're not. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian, as the saying goes.

If the point of this thread is to figure out which codex is the most easily competitive or breakable, I guess that's Guard, but they're hardly the auto-win that people think they are.

IMO, the "tiers," if you will:

SEMI IDIOT-PROOF TO BE COMPETITIVE, AND VICIOUS IF RUN WELL:
IG
Space Wolves
Blood Angels Meh, I slightly disagree about this one.

SOLID/AVERAGE CODEX, BUT REQUIRES SOME SKILL AND LIST BUILDING:
Space Marines
Orks
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines

LIMITED/OUTDATED CODEX, BUT CAN BE TWEAKED TO RUN WELL:
Dark Eldar
Tau
Eldar I disagree with this one, I would put it up one.
Witch Hunters
Daemon Hunters
Dark Angels

CRAP CODEX, SO DON'T COME BRAGGING ABOUT HOW YOU BEAT NOOBS WITH YOUR LOUSY ARMY:
Necrons

There, everything else is spot on, DE can be in the tippy top-tier though.

**Xyptc**

Inquisitor_Syphonious wrote:
Skarboy wrote:Tiers are a flawed notion. Aside from the helpless out of date tiers, both strong and weak lists can be made from ANY codex and you're either a good general or you're not. It's not the arrow, it's the Indian, as the saying goes.

If the point of this thread is to figure out which codex is the most easily competitive or breakable, I guess that's Guard, but they're hardly the auto-win that people think they are.

IMO, the "tiers," if you will:

SEMI IDIOT-PROOF TO BE COMPETITIVE, AND VICIOUS IF RUN WELL:
IG
Space Wolves
Blood Angels Meh, I slightly disagree about this one.

SOLID/AVERAGE CODEX, BUT REQUIRES SOME SKILL AND LIST BUILDING:
Space Marines
Orks
Tyranids
Chaos Daemons
Chaos Space Marines

LIMITED/OUTDATED CODEX, BUT CAN BE TWEAKED TO RUN WELL:
Dark Eldar
Tau
Eldar I disagree with this one, I would put it up one.
Witch Hunters
Daemon Hunters
Dark Angels

CRAP CODEX, SO DON'T COME BRAGGING ABOUT HOW YOU BEAT NOOBS WITH YOUR LOUSY ARMY:
Necrons

There, everything else is spot on, DE can be in the tippy top-tier though.

That's just it though - DE can be tweaked to run well, as can Witch Hunters, a couple of Eldar builds and perhaps a certain type of Tau (very, very shakey though).

On the other hand, it's very hard to build a "bad" IG or Space Wolf list. The middle tier is perhaps the exemplar of balance though - these books can produce a whole range of power-levels for different occasions, where as the other tiers tend to struggle to reach the other side of the spectrum.

**BobTheChainsaw**

Tau are WAY more powerful than most people think. They're at least middle tier, if not top tier. Sadly the vast majority of people simply play them incorrectly and/or poorly, and assume they suck.

**KamikazeCanuck**

I think any race can beat any race. It has more to do with your "type" or army rather than race to race differences. Of course, some armies can be "horde army" and some cannot.

**Melissia**

Technically speaking that is true, but that doesn't mean that some codices are weaker or stronger than others.

**radiohazard**

I agree with Bob to some extent.

The Tau have only one weakness other than cc. It's the fact they can't hit the broadside of a bus. They are supposed to be the most powerful shooty army, but they're not even the proverbial glass cannon.

In their defence they do have an uber list that does mess with the meta. The lists with nine broadsides are really effective against some mech lists. Downside is it's really boring to play and costs a small fortune.

**Honersstodnt**

I play biker marines, so I love to see the 9 broadside list.

yes, you can fire 9 broadsides at my bikes. No, I won't care, as i'm turbo boosting towards hand to hand

**radiohazard**

That's the other issue with broadside barrage, it fails against Non mech armies.

**ShasO Ben**

Leave the Necrons alone

.

Anyway. Guard seem to rock all most everyone in any battle.

**Kilkrazy**

Cheap troops with cheap heavy weapons, cheap transports, tanks in squadrons, lots of artillery, psychic powers, they have a lot going for them.

**Melissia**

Kilkrazy wrote:Cheap troops with cheap heavy weapons, cheap transports, tanks in squadrons, lots of artillery, psychic powers, they have a lot going for them.

Psychic powers that suck pretty hard.... Primaris Psykers especially got screwed over, and the psyker battle squad works best with a C:WH Inquisitor added in.

**Kilkrazy**

Psychic powers many degrees of magnitude in advance of Tau powers though.

Also the Orders system.

**Melissia**

Indeed, the Order system kicks ass. But the psychic powers don't... they're really kinda mediocre, and are really way outclassed by any of the heavy support options, even deathstrike missiles.

**Monster Rain**

Wow, you're kidding right? The leadership reducing power is amazing. Is this going to be the new fallacy on the 40k forums? That "IG aren't all that good, I win with them in spite of their glaring flaws?"

Makes me long for the days of 4th Ed Eldar reigning supreme...

**KingCracker**

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Seems the only thing people agree on is Necrons don't win...

Wheres Aduro when you need him. Necrons really arnt a terrible army. Yes they get nerfed by their own Phase Out rule, BUT

They can kick the living crap out of you real fast if they are played right. Seriously guys dont bash the Necrons as an auto lose, they will surprise you when played right.

**Tantras**

KingCracker wrote:
KamikazeCanuck wrote:Seems the only thing people agree on is Necrons don't win...

Wheres Aduro when you need him. Necrons really arnt a terrible army. Yes they get nerfed by their own Phase Out rule, BUT

They can kick the living crap out of you real fast if they are played right. Seriously guys dont bash the Necrons as an auto lose, they will surprise you when played right.

Nobody will argue with you, we're just saying that the same skilled player you mention would be able to do even better with a GOOD army.

Was Da Vinci talented with a pencil? Of course... But Imagine the fu**er if he'd had CAD software!

**Gwar!**

Da Vinci probably had CAD software, but was so awesome he never told anyone about it before he flew away in his magical space cigar to his home planet of Niblonia!

But Necrons can win... against Dark Eldar, when the Necron Player takes 3 Monoliths! Impossible to glance a Lith to death and S8 vs AV14 fails :(

**radiohazard**

I actually find necrons difficult to deal with, but that maybe because the guys I play against are really good with them.