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Scott-S6 wrote:Would the tanks have been sitting there waiting for the fight to start? Or moving fast to get into position? I prefer 4+ as it doesn't favour either side.

Well, if we are getting into fluff, can my marines all have Toughness 10 and Strength 11?

RaW there is no clear answer. There was no previous turn, so therefore it cannot have moved in the previous turn. Therefore, it is automatically hit as it did not move in a previous turn.

Monster Rain wrote:The fact that there was no "last turn" doesn't mean that the unit remained stationary and the attackers get the benefit of auto hitting.

That's just the way I interpret it. If the vehicle hasn't been stationary for a turn at all in the game, it shouldn't be automatically hit in assault.

Do you see what I did there? There is no rules or fluff basis to support any of auto/4+/6+ more than the others.


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Gwar! wrote:RaW there is no clear answer. There was no previous turn, so therefore it cannot have moved in the previous turn. Therefore, it is automatically hit as it did not move in a previous turn.

It didn't remain stationary on a previous turn either so it is not autohit.

Scott-S6 wrote:It didn't remain stationary on a previous turn either so it is not autohit.

Yes, but it also did not move, so 4+/6 also cannot apply. Also, why is 4+ more "fair"? If the guy was dumb enough to allow his vehicles to be 1st turn assaulted, he deserves it imo.

Well, all three options are equally valid. Taking the middle one just seems to be "fairer".

I don't really mind which one people use but I do have a problem when people claim that the rules support auto-hit, like monster rain did, since this is clearly not the case.

Again, like i said if the other player trys to be a tfg in such a situation, just be one right back.

Not hard to find something in his army army you can make not work because the rules were written stupidly.

Shrike gives all scouts fleet? And unless you can inflitrate Land Raiders, all you are going to get is +3" for the pivot (I'm being generous here) 12" normal move, disembark 2", 1" base (unless you are using Termies) and 6" assault, giving you a total of 21" Even if both sides set up a max of 12" away from their board edges, you aren't going to make it into assault turn 1.

Shrike gives the whole army fleet. With the terminators in Landraiders the maths works out like this:

You start 24" apart roughly.

You pivot 2.5", move 12", Deploy 2" bases 1.5", fleet d6", Assault 6" = 24" + d6" so 25"-30", not alot of room for error granted and your opponent has to be dumb enough to deploy against his deployment edge right in front of your Landraider but possible.

Since Scouts are troops and Shrike can deploy with an assault squad you could still assault with everything in turn 1 if you wanted to build your army that way (Chuck a few scout biker squads in there to fill out FA slots) and the Assault Ternminatotrs in the LR just give extra punch but are far more situational in their first turn assault than everything else.

As for the topic, most people will play auto-hit. If something scout moved I'd take it being hit against whatever it moved as the scout move.

As for the cling to the Last turn wording to break the game that seems entirely counter productive. How about we ignore the last turn thuing because that is the part that is causing the problem with a first turn charge. Therefore we get:

Was it immobilised or stationary [last turn]? - Yes
Did it move at combat speed [last turn]? - no
Did it move at cruising speed [last turn]? - no

Problem solved. The other obvious answer is to boil down the rule to its base mechanics. In this case was the vehicle moving, no so it is auto-hit. Arguing for any other option just seems like you are trying to get away with being caught with your pants down. If your opponent has things that can assault in turn 1 and you've presented him with the targets then that is your fault. RaW doesn't provide an answer so using the words as best you can or using the mechanics as best you can seem to be the best options and both methods come to the same conclusion...

@ Monster Rain You are ignoring that there are in fact requirements for it to be auto hit, which cannot be met on the first turn of the game. So actually by using your own method we determine that there is no way to hit vehicles that have not had a previous turn...so you simply cant get any hits at all on vehicles in cc the first turn.

So ipso facto vehicles are immune in cc the first turn of the game...................



If one isnt willing to come to some sort of reasonable agreement (say going with the split position of hitting on a 4+) then we are left with rolling off the two choices each game. Half the time auto hit, the other half cannot be hit at all.

So yes, it does make sense to come up with some sort of reasonable house rule.



If one starts bringing in ideas about what the vehicle was doing before the first turnthen we get into the whole muddy area of how in the world did these two armies approach to point blank range without ever firing a shot at each other prvious to the start of the game? Did both sides just teleport onto the table? Did everyone move in at night and just wake up... "Oh look, there they are!"
There just isnt any fluff that works for the start of the game.


Sliggoth

going with 4+ isnt the split position ... its the extremely small minority, almost every place plays autohit ...

Sliggoth wrote:@ Monster Rain You are ignoring that there are in fact requirements for it to be auto hit, which cannot be met on the first turn of the game. So actually by using your own method we determine that there is no way to hit vehicles that have not had a previous turn...so you simply cant get any hits at all on vehicles in cc the first turn.

So ipso facto vehicles are immune in cc the first turn of the game...................

Or you can remove all the semantics and just say "hasn't moved = autohit" just like 99.99% of the rest of 40k Players.

Please take video of the reaction you get when you try this at a tournament. The look of scornful bemusement on the face of the judge that's forced to come over and shoot you down will be priceless.

Sliggoth wrote:@ Monster Rain You are ignoring that there are in fact requirements for it to be auto hit, which cannot be met on the first turn of the game. So actually by using your own method we determine that there is no way to hit vehicles that have not had a previous turn...so you simply cant get any hits at all on vehicles in cc the first turn.

So ipso facto vehicles are immune in cc the first turn of the game...................



If one isnt willing to come to some sort of reasonable agreement (say going with the split position of hitting on a 4+) then we are left with rolling off the two choices each game. Half the time auto hit, the other half cannot be hit at all.

So yes, it does make sense to come up with some sort of reasonable house rule.



If one starts bringing in ideas about what the vehicle was doing before the first turnthen we get into the whole muddy area of how in the world did these two armies approach to point blank range without ever firing a shot at each other prvious to the start of the game? Did both sides just teleport onto the table? Did everyone move in at night and just wake up... "Oh look, there they are!"
There just isnt any fluff that works for the start of the game.


Sliggoth

Just a word on the fluff, isn't 40k supposed to be like a snap shot of a larger battle? therefore many other units could have been blasted away before these specific ones reached each other. Either way I play auto hit.

Gwar! wrote:

Scott-S6 wrote:It didn't remain stationary on a previous turn either so it is not autohit.

Yes, but it also did not move, so 4+/6 also cannot apply. Also, why is 4+ more "fair"? If the guy was dumb enough to allow his vehicles to be 1st turn assaulted, he deserves it imo.

Actually, it is not the case that it moved just as it is not the case that it did not move, the only way to read "RAW" is to admit that the condition of 'previous turn' cannot be met thus you cannot apply auto hit either. If you actually want to use the rules, you cannot assault the first turn as once you try to you must start a new game because the rules implode and you cannot move on.

Again, the condition of "previous turn" cannot be met, thus, gwar, your position is not a "RAW" position.

visavismeyou wrote:Again, the condition of "previous turn" cannot be met, thus, gwar, your position is not a "RAW" position.

If you will note THE VERY FIRST REPLY!

Gwar! wrote:Yes, it is an auto hit.

Or maybe not. The rules don't actually cover what happens. Strictly speaking, the game breaks and Slaanesh kills a ptera-squirrel!

99.99% of people play it as autohit however.

I have already noted that RaW there is no actual solution. My comments that you have quoted are simply argument over what to do in its stead.
So I know full well that it's not the RaW position, the RaW position is OMFGTHEGAMEBREAOJKASSDH_P)*AS)PAIHNP(OUW(*&"*"^&*(")*FEARSLAANESHFORISHALLFEASTUPONTHESOULSOFYOURSQURRELS¬euofhe98h.

Sadly though, they don't let me reply to posts with (just) that anymore.

Yea I read your first reply, thats why I was confused when it seemed like you started supporting a non-raw position, guess I misunderstood you.

visavismeyou wrote:Yea I read your first reply, thats why I was confused when it seemed like you started supporting a non-raw position, guess I misunderstood you.

Ah, my apologies.

I only started supporting the Autohit position because:
A) The RaW is the above ptera-squirrel eating nothingness.
2) IMO, the vehicle hasn't moved in a previous turn, so therefore MUST have been stationary (but this is not RaW, as noted, just me trying to use logic )
iii) As I said before, if the dude is dim enough to let it happen, he deserves it. All you need is a single unit of infantry to screen it and it's safe from 1st turn assaults.

FlingitNow wrote:As for the cling to the Last turn wording to break the game that seems entirely counter productive. How about we ignore the last turn thuing because that is the part that is causing the problem with a first turn charge. Therefore we get:

Ignoring part of a rule to get a result is most certainly not good practice. The rules do not give you an answer in this circumstance so there needs to be a houserule/player's agreement. Butchering the rules and then trying to use that to justify your opinion is just bizarre.

Oh, and even if you remove the last turn clause the vehicle still cannot be considered stationary since it has not yet had a turn - it's speed is currently unknown.

Gwar's point iii) is a decent reasoning for auto-hit. Your "ignore part of the rule" is not.

Ignoring part of a rule to get a result is most certainly not good practice. The rules do not give you an answer in this circumstance so there needs to be a houserule/player's agreement. Butchering the rules and then trying to use that to justify your opinion is just bizarre.

Oh, and even if you remove the last turn clause the vehicle still cannot be considered stationary since it has not yet had a turn - it's speed is currently unknown.

Gwar's point iii) is a decent reasoning for auto-hit. Your "ignore part of the rule" is not.

What about the using the raw mechanics of the rule reasoning? Or the fact that 99% of people will naturally play it that way or that a part from the internet I've never heard anyone try to argue any other resolution? It appears neither have several other peope on this thread.

Or how about it is about 99% certain that that is in fact how The Rules work?

That's exactly the point - it's not how the rules work. I've said it, Gwar!'s said it and so have other people.

If you want to play it that way because it makes sense to you or to punish people stupid enough to let people set up on them or whatever then that's fine.

Don't try and claim it's what the rules say because it is not.

That's exactly the point - it's not how the rules work.

I disagree entirely I think it is pretty clear that is exactly how the rules work.

I also think ignoring parts of the rulebook wording to interpret the rules is entirely valid. For instance I ignore the part of the wording that states in warpfield gives a 3++ save to Zoanthropes. Because the rules are pretty clear that the Doom gets a 3++ save even though the RaW is that he does not.

Likewise eth RaW breaks at this point in the game but the rules are pretty clear it is an auto-hit...

I disagree entirely I think it is pretty clear that is exactly how the rules work.

But, it really isn't.

Even the resident dakka RAW trolle notes that autohit is a house rule.

Given there was no 'previous turn,' then any of the available options is equally invalid.

Do most people play it as an autohit? Yes, myself included.

Is it RAW? Oh, definitely not. RAW (yet again) provides no clear answer.

Remember, despite being asked not to the poster conflates "the rules" with "the interpreted rules i thin the game means", and not those rules found in the rulebook. Hence the disconnect - different uses of the same word "rule"

Everyone I know plays it as auto-hit. (and Orks usually need that buzz-saw attack since we can't hit the broadside of a Vindi with our Missiles) If someone made a stink about it and really wanted a 'sporting chance' I would give him some sort of roll-off (hey, maybe the Rhino driver was bored and was doing donuts in his deployment zone before the battle - who knows?) I think of it as a Pearl Harbor type of attack that should surprise your opponent, catch him flat-footed and get you an auto hit.

Since it is not really covered in the rules, you just need to be sporting about it.

I showed a new Ork player how to do this: "Deffkoptas - 24" Scout Move, 12" normal move, -fire rockets! twin-linked! missed again! 6" assault move - 40" total assault move. Oh yea!" and he was reeeal excited.

FlingitNow wrote:Or how about it is about 99% certain that that is in fact how The Rules work?

Everything you said was fine until this point, the rules dont say anything on the topic, thus you cant say they work one way or another.

But, it really isn't.

Even the resident dakka RAW trolle notes that autohit is a house rule.

Given there was no 'previous turn,' then any of the available options is equally invalid.

Do most people play it as an autohit? Yes, myself included.

Is it RAW? Oh, definitely not. RAW (yet again) provides no clear answer.

I've never stated it was the RaW. I stated the rules where clear not the RaW was clear.

Everything you said was fine until this point, the rules dont say anything on the topic, thus you cant say they work one way or another.

Again I think like the above poster you are confusing with RaW and the Rules. RaW =/= RaI, and whilst RaW remains silent onm this issue the rulebook makes it pretty clear how you would resolve this issue.

tedurur wrote:Scouts in a LSS, now thats some nice range

I do this alot, Land Speeder Storm scout turbo boost, turn one move into range, fire Storms multi-melta at one tank/transport, scouts fire combi-melta same/another, and/or charge with meltabombs and krak grenades or hit the troops that were inside of the transport.

Either way auto hitting with meltabombs and kraks = good times

Actually, if one wants to think about whats clear: its clear that the units on the table drove, walked or were teleported to their locations. They were not born, raised and trained there. So obviously all of the units moved to where they are now. And since this is a wargame, about an ongoing battle..it certainly seems reasonable that they only recently moved to their locations. If they had been sitting there for an extended period then its likely that even the most hidebound IG or dimmest ork would decide to attack those other guys that they can see over there.

So its actually most reasonable to believe that the units have all just moved into their locations VERY recently, since the fight is just about to begin....so it would be very very reasinable to think that all of the vehciles have just recently (ie the previous turn that doesnt exist) in fact moved.

Of course, thats applying reason and common sense to creating a house rule, so take it or leave it. Some people may think its more likely that the vehicles all just drove up and then politely waited for everyone else to arrive before starting the fight. Orks are soooo polite


Sliggoth

FlingitNow wrote:I've never stated it was the RaW. I stated the rules where clear not the RaW was clear.

Weren't you told to stop trying to argue that? Because it's not true.
Making stuff up are called House Rules.
The rules are the RaW.

Weren't you told to stop trying to argue that? Because it's not true.
Making stuff up are called House Rules.
The rules are the RaW.

Not I wasn't, I was asked to not assume anyone who said the rules meant the rules. The rules are what GW designed not what an inannimate object designed.

Me making stuff up is house rules. GW making stuff up is the rules. The Rulebook is a tool to communicate those rules to us. An imperfect tool and a tool not designed to be interpreted literally (i.e. by RaW).

Sometimes RaW is clear and incorrect (the Doom's invulnerable save), sometimes the rules disagree with RaW and are totally clear, sometimes the rules disagree with RaW and are totally unclear (scout moves cover saves). Soemtimes RaW is unclear but the rules are clear (this instance).

OK, if people are ignoring what Im saying in ther other line of reasoning lets try this:


Player one says that it a an auto hit, since even tho thats clearly not RAW its still obvious that the vehicle didnt move.

Player two says that there is no way to hit the vehicle on turn one by RAW, so its clear that vehicles must have some ability to dig in and become immune to hits for this first turn. No hit at all allowed since its not otherwise allowed in the rules.

Bystander says...why not something in the middle, say go with 4+ since its reasonable to assume that vehicles were slowly moving into position for the battle?

Players 1+2 ignore bystander. Refuse to compromise...so they go to a roll off. Which just so happens to mean that half of the games the vehicles are hit, and half the games they arent hit at all.

Bystander points out that mathmatically they have reached the same odds as in his suggestion, but it looks silly.




Sliggoth

Bystander can also go and suck a lemon!

And I wouldn't let it get to a dice off scenario, I would have pointed out pre game. There are very few units who can do this anyway and if the game has one, I would clear it up pre game.

Sliggoth I understand your reasoning but as in 99% of cases your opponent will just agree he is being auto-hit and if you get a 3rd party to rule they will also go with the auto-hit it seems unnecessary.

If my opponent was kicking up that much of fuss in a friendly game I'd ask him if winning at toy soldiers was really that important to his life? In a Tournament I'd get a TO to rule knowing I've got about a 99% chance he'll rule auto-hit.