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Globzog wrote:

Gwar! wrote:The rule is 110% clear. If you can't see it... well I'll leave it at that.

In your world, it may be played like this. It dosent make it the "correct" way to play it. Everywhere I play it is played another way. The most recently was the local 'Ard Boys.

"wound against which no armour save can ever be
taken (like wounds from power fists, Dreadnought close
combat weapons, rending weapons that roll a 6, Perils
of the Warp, failed dangerous terrain tests, etc)."

...and somehow come out thinking "An AP3 wound is totally a wound against which 'NO ARMOR SAVE CAN EVER BE TAKEN, LIKE A WOUND FROM A POWER FIST OR DCCW'!" is not a problem with how the rule is written.

Did you notice the "etc" part of that statement? In the realm of wounds that never offer an armor save, like power fists, dreadnought CCW, lower AP than your SV does indeed fall into this category.


Its a vague statement. Its ashame you cannot see this. And its even more sad that people like the OP try to get clarity on the subject and find themselve being bullied into playing it a certain way because a few people insist on interpreting it a certain way.

Thats all im going to say.

it's not a matter of not being able to see it- it's a matter of ignorance of the english language. no armour save can ever (note: EVER) be taken. all-encompassing. covering every eventuality. does AP3 deny an armour save in every possible scenario? No. which means that an armor save CAN be taken, just not that particular model. which means they get FNP. the wording is not open to intepretation because it is very clear, in correct english, that only wounds which NEVER allow an armour save deny feel no pain- the etc merely shows that the examples listed are not the only things which always deny an armour save- Boneswords, for example, are not listed as an example yet also deny FNP.

Thats all im going to say.

Wow. Just wow.



I know that I can be a real stubborn, irration on occasion but the cake has been taken. Globzog why not, for laughs, admit that there's a possibility that you may have misinterpreted the rules and then reread some of the arguments contrary to your position with an open mind? Gwar and Nos and KingKracker and... well... pretty much everyone else in the thread have pointed out the correct way to play FNP.

Because some people just cannot admit to being wrong, ever. Especially on the internet. He's got e-cred at stake!

Also, if nothing else, such dogged persistence means if it comes up in game, he can try and convince his opponent to dice off, and might get a chance to play it his way, rather than the correct one.

Im not even going to comment on personal references.....Please, if your going to contribute to the discussion. Attempt to make it a rational, relivant arguement.

Im really not even sure why Im trying furthering my point but riddle me this: The examples given are Power Fist, Dreadnought CCW, rending weapons that roll a 6 and Perils of the Warp.

Of the examples provided, the only ones in which the ruling of that weapon/test implicitly states "no armour save can ever be taken" are Perils of the Warp and Dangerous Terrain. Nowhere in the context of the rules does it state no armour save can EVER be taken if wounded by a Power Fist or Dreadnought CCW or even Rending weapons on a roll of 6. My guess is the rule included these weapons because in certain situations, these weapons have the ability to cause cause instant death, and in the context of FNP must be evaluated on a case by case basis.

Lets go back to the wording of the rule, it implicitly states that FNP roll may NOT be made against wounds that cause instant death. Should my Deffkopter whith a buzzsaw (treated as a power fist) @ str 6, make an CC attack agains a squad of plague marines and inflict wounds, even though the Buzzsaw is considered a Power FIst, the plague marines do infact get a FNP roll for all regular failed saves.

wound against which no armour save can ever be taken (like wounds from power fists.....

If you CAN take a save from a power fist in certain situations, power fists no longer fit into the "no armour SV EVER" category, and thus by all your rational is an invalid example.

So therefore the wording of "Ever" must be evaluated on a case by case basis and only applys when the instant death factor comes into play.



Seems prety contradictory to me, how is this rule so clear again?


*Note to the OP and anyone else looking for a way to interpret this rule: "Cuz I say so" "Face Palm" "Your just stubborn" "Your a stupid-head" are not valid arguements for or against. Please do not attempt these in a game.

You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. If the buzzsaw is treated as a power fist, then it ignores armor saves and negates Feel No Pain. Try and come up with a better example.

Globzog wrote: If you CAN take a save from a power fist in certain situations, power fists no longer fit into the "no armour SV EVER" category, and thus by all your rational is an invalid example.

Except that's not what the rule says. It says if you cannot ever take an ARMOUR save, not just Save.

Can you ever take an armour save vs AP3? Why, yes, you can. If you have 2+ Armour. Therefore, AP3 doesn't negate FNP.

Globzog wrote: The most recently was the local 'Ard Boys.

'Ard Boyz also says that dedicated transports don't count as kill points (did they finally decide to change that this year?) Their particular houserules have no relevance to this discussion. You're getting so much flak for this because you're deliberately obfuscating what is not that complicated of a rule, much like how in the past people who have doggedly clung to their belief that you can take cover saves against marker lights have gotten less and less patience the longer they cling to their belief, despite all the evidence to the contrary.

Bookwrack wrote:You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. If the buzzsaw is treated as a power fist, then it ignores armor saves and negates Feel No Pain. Try and come up with a better example.

- Pg.20 BRB. You are making an incorrect statement.

Gwar! wrote:

Globzog wrote: If you CAN take a save from a power fist in certain situations, power fists no longer fit into the "no armour SV EVER" category, and thus by all your rational is an invalid example.

Except that's not what the rule says. It says if you cannot ever take an ARMOUR save, not just Save.

Can you ever take an armour save vs AP3? Why, yes, you can. If you have 2+ Armour. Therefore, AP3 doesn't negate FNP.

Did you read my case? If they ment EVER, under any circumstances take an ARMOUR save. then how are a PF, DCCW 6 on Rending valid examples?

Globzog - an [b[Armour[/b] save can NEVER be taken against a DCCW nor a powerfist. Therefore it ignores FNP.

Whereas an AP3 weapon CAN have an armour save taken against it - when you have 2+ armour.

So sorry, no, you do not need to evaluate it against each model at all. Assuming you dont drop crucial words, like "armour", that is...

nosferatu1001 wrote:Globzog - an [b[Armour[/b] save can NEVER be taken against a DCCW nor a powerfist. Therefore it ignores FNP.

Im sorry, where does it say this? Because Its not on Pg.20 under Power Fists or Pg. 73 under DCCW

You don't even have a rulebook, do you, because you're either getting the page numbers completely wrong, or not even bothering to read what's on them. If you're going to try and argue a rule, buy the book first.

Globzog wrote:

Bookwrack wrote:You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. If the buzzsaw is treated as a power fist, then it ignores armor saves and negates Feel No Pain. Try and come up with a better example.

- Pg.20 BRB. You are making an incorrect statement.

You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. Page 20, doesn't even mention power fists. However, page 42 does. Now, if you can come up with an example of where it's possible to take an armor save against power weapons, you might, at long last, have a point.

Globzog wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Globzog - an [b[Armour[/b] save can NEVER be taken against a DCCW nor a powerfist. Therefore it ignores FNP.

Im sorry, where does it say this? Because Its not on Pg.20 under Power Fists or Pg. 73 under DCCW

Willfully and blatantly misreading the rules is not going to get you very far.

Hey Gloz, do attacks from Genestealers allow FNP?

BRB pg.75 wrote:if a model with this ability ... Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 ... and any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken

It appears from the context that it is applied to the specific model.

Such that it follows that if the model can not ever take an armor save against that particular wound it cannot then use feel no pain.

You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. Page 20, doesn't even mention power fists. However, page 42 does. Now, if you can come up with an example of where it's possible to take an armor save against power weapons, you might, at long last, have a point.

Pg error asside, please quote the part about a Power Fist, DCCW or Rending not allowing an armour save. Saying it dosent, dosent make it so.

Gorkamorka wrote:

Globzog wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Globzog - an [b[Armour[/b] save can NEVER be taken against a DCCW nor a powerfist. Therefore it ignores FNP.

Im sorry, where does it say this? Because Its not on Pg.20 under Power Fists or Pg. 73 under DCCW

Willfully and blatantly misreading the rules is not going to get you very far.

I miquoted the page. Calm down. This dosent magically put the phrase "no armour save can ever be taken" into the PF rule. Next thing is your going to critique my spelling (which i know is attrocious) as an argument For.

Lacross wrote:

BRB pg.75 wrote:if a model with this ability ... Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 ... and any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken

It appears from the context that it is applied to the specific model.

Such that it follows that if the model can not ever take an armor save against that particular wound it cannot then use feel no pain.

Therefore an AP3 is thus not ignored by FNP

Globzog wrote:

You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. Page 20, doesn't even mention power fists. However, page 42 does. Now, if you can come up with an example of where it's possible to take an armor save against power weapons, you might, at long last, have a point.

Pg error asside, please quote the part about a Power Fist, DCCW or Rending not allowing an armour save. Saying it dosent, dosent make it so.

Are you really this dense?

All right, each of these entries has a line that says, 'treat as a power weapon that also does X' And if you stroll on over to page 42, and look at the entry for 'power weapons' you might take note of the bit stating, '-are not allowed armor saves.'

Globzog wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

Globzog wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Globzog - an [b[Armour[/b] save can NEVER be taken against a DCCW nor a powerfist. Therefore it ignores FNP.

Im sorry, where does it say this? Because Its not on Pg.20 under Power Fists or Pg. 73 under DCCW

Willfully and blatantly misreading the rules is not going to get you very far.

I miquoted the page. Calm down. This donet magically put the phrase "no armour save can ever be taken" into the PF rule.

Yeah, I was obviously talking about the page number being off and not you claiming that power fists and dccw allow armor saves.

What, do you want us to paint you a picture?
BIG HINT: It's the first seven words of the second sentence of the power fist description on page 42.

Lordhat wrote:Hey Gloz, do attacks from Genestealers allow FNP?

I dont have the Tyrind codex, but Im assuming they only have Rending, no other special ability that would alter the outcome of FNP? But I would play wounds from rending however the general consensus of my oponents(s) or gaming group deemds it as the rule can be interpreted both way with valid points on either side.

Globzog wrote:

You're starting to make up examples that don't even make sense. Page 20, doesn't even mention power fists. However, page 42 does. Now, if you can come up with an example of where it's possible to take an armor save against power weapons, you might, at long last, have a point.

Pg error asside, please quote the part about a Power Fist, DCCW or Rending not allowing an armour save. Saying it dosent, dosent make it so.

Ummm WTF?

BGB pg. 42 wrote:
Power fists
.... A power fist is a power weapon....

BGB pg. 42 wrote:
Rending weapons...... These wounds count as wounds from a power weapon....

BGB pg. 73 wrote:
Dreadnought Close Combat Weapons
A Dreadnought Close Combat Weapon is a power weapon.....

BGB pg. 42 wrote:
Power weapons
Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves

Gorkamorka wrote:

Globzog wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:

Globzog wrote:

nosferatu1001 wrote:Globzog - an [b[Armour[/b] save can NEVER be taken against a DCCW nor a powerfist. Therefore it ignores FNP.

Im sorry, where does it say this? Because Its not on Pg.20 under Power Fists or Pg. 73 under DCCW

Willfully and blatantly misreading the rules is not going to get you very far.

I miquoted the page. Calm down. This donet magically put the phrase "no armour save can ever be taken" into the PF rule.

Yeah, I was obviously talking about the page number being off and not you claiming that power fists allow armor saves.

What, do you want us to paint you a picture?
BIG HINT: It's the first seven words of the second sentence of the power fist description on page 42.

.

Page 42 - Power Fists:

A power fist is a power weapon...

Page 42 - Power Weapon:

Models wounded in close combat by the attacks of a model armed with a power weapon are not allowed armour saves.

Note that I cannot believe that you didn't know this, Globzog.

Lacross wrote:

Lacross wrote:

BRB pg.75 wrote:if a model with this ability ... Neither can it be used against wounds from AP1 and AP2 ... and any other wound against which no armor save can ever be taken

It appears from the context that it is applied to the specific model.

Such that it follows that if the model can not ever take an armor save against that particular wound it cannot then use feel no pain.

Therefore an AP3 is thus not ignored by FNP

Nope, your argument doesn't work. Break it down into a checklist:
Does it cause instant death?
Is it AP 1 or 2?
Is it a power weapon or any other attack against which no armor save can ever be taken?

Not only is that 'ever' an important bit (there are plenty of things that can save against AP 3) but the fact it is directly linked with the power weapon rule, and all the listed examples also directly draw upon the power weapon rule. There is absolutely nothing there to support the belief that AP other than 1 or 2 has any effect on FNP.

Globzog wrote:

Gorkamorka wrote:
Yeah, I was obviously talking about the page number being off and not you claiming that power fists allow armor saves.

What, do you want us to paint you a picture?
BIG HINT: It's the first seven words of the second sentence of the power fist description on page 42.

I believe your reading "Power Weapons". Not to be confused with "Power Fists". I understand the confusion.

Yeah... no.

BIG HINT: It's the first seven words of the second sentence of the power fist description on page 42. wrote:
A power fist is a power weapon

Gorkamorka wrote:
Willfully and blatantly misreading the rules is not going to get you very far.

@Bookwrack


I'm sure i did break it down.
so let me clarify then...

if the particular model cannot ever make an armor save against an AP3 wound then it cannot use FNP.

This is from the "etc." at the end of the rules text.
also: see Pg 20
"if the weapon's armor piercing value is equal to or lower... the target gets no armor save at all..."

Another one? It's not talking about whether or not a specific model can take an armor save, it's talking about wounds against which "no armor save may ever be taken". If there's something out there that can take an armor save against a wound it doesn't negate FNP. AP3 allows armor saves to things with 2+ saves, so it doesn't negate FNP. This is what, the 6,000th time it's been explained now?

Lacross wrote:@Bookwrack


I'm sure i did break it down.
so let me clarify then...

if the particular model cannot ever make an armor save against an AP3 wound then it cannot use FNP.

This is from the "etc." at the end of the rules text.
also: see Pg 20
"if the weapon's armor piercing value is equal to or lower... the target gets no armor save at all..."

You're reading it wrong. I already explained why in my previous post.

Everyone calm down, please, and have some pudding.



Right.

A. You cannot "implicitly state" something because implicit means implied though not plainly expressed and to state means to express fully or clearly. They are opposite. It is like speeding slowly. The adjective you want is 'explicitly'.

B. If someone wants to make an argument which relies on the specific wording of the rules, they need to state the rules as they are written, with references so everyone know what page they are found on to check the wording is correct. They should not redact parts of the rules in any way which biases the argument.

Thank you.

FNP does not ask "can this particular model take an armour save in this particular situation?" Rather, it asks, "Can any model anywhere ever take an armour save in this particular situation?"

So, for instance, you take a Rending wound from a Generstealer. Strolling on over to the BBB, we see that Rending wounds count as coming from a Power Weapon. Flicking to the Power Weapon description, we see that power weapons disallow armour saves.

So, can someone in Termie armour take an Armour Save? Nope.

What about Power Armour? Nope.

Mesh Armour? Uh-uh

Flak Armour? Try again.

Ork Armour? Still no.

Nobody, ever, anywhere, can get an Armour save against a Rending wound, therefore FNP does not apply either. Same reasoning goes for Power Fists, Power Weapons, and AP 1 & 2 guns.