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Join an elite fighting force and do 6 combat tours, fight in the stinking cess pits of Africa and the middle east, dig some ticks and leeches out of your ball-bag and wonder why some young African men decided to kill other young lads by tying them up and putting a burning tyre over their heads. Then come home, eat some ben and jerrys, knock back some nice cold pints, take a power shower and watch your big screen Tv and repeat after me. 'what the feth is depression anyway?!' :-)

Not very helpful Matty, even if you are jesting.
Up to now it has been a good discussion and it would useful to keep it that way please.

Actually, I think Mattyrm has a good point.

Matty's point is a counterargument concerning depression. It was reported but I kept there on that basis.

jwoolf wrote:Actually, I think Mattyrm has a good point.

Frazzled wrote:Matty's point is a counterargument concerning depression. It was reported but I kept there on that basis.

But this isn't an argument or debate, or at least I didn't know it was. I think everyone, up until now, who posted was trying to answer the OP's question from personal experience. Not everything in the OT forum is an argument.

It is not a counter argument Frazzled, simply a cheap shot at the illness and its sufferers. There is nothing remotely concerned with Depression and the effects it has on a person with the illness.
Until now posts that have been sceptical have at least shown decency and respect.

But this isn't an argument or debate, or at least I didn't know it was. I think everyone, up until now, who posted was trying to answer the OP's question from personal experience. Not everything in the OT forum is an argument.

Spot on the money!

I was jesting of course, no need to get upset about it. I wasnt arguing with anybody.

But the point i was making was real though, there is always someone in the world worse off than you. Try and put yourself in their shoes and your outlook will be brighter.

Thats the way i see it, i dont see how you can find it offensive?

Grignard wrote:But this isn't an argument or debate, or at least I didn't know it was. I think everyone, up until now, who posted was trying to answer the OP's question from personal experience. Not everything in the OT forum is an argument.

I don't know matty so I don't presume to speak for him, but I took it as a suggestion on how to cope with this particular affliction. That's exactly what the OP asked for, so I didn't see it as an argument, but as a valid response.

I think the problem might be that it essentially amounts to the unpopular view of "keep a stiff upper lip." I think that's good advice, and often overlooked. I don't mean this as an insult to those who believe they are truly suffering from a chemical imbalance, but I find that keeping busy, especially with strenuous physical activity, does a world of good. I also think depression symptoms can be mitigated (not cured, I'm talking about coping here) by getting some perspective on the way people around the world live (since let's be honest, we're talking about middle-class first world males here).

So I'm with matty. My best advice: Man up. Again, I don't mean this dismissively or rudely. I'm sure this won't be an exclusive solution for everyone. I just think there's a lot of benefit to be had by going about your day-to-day, getting involved, and trying to keep a decent outlook. Flame if you like, but realize this post is intended in a friendly manner.

Because having been through it it just ain't funny.

Secondly the line " There's always someone else worse off than you" line is meaningless.

Knowing that there are people that are worse off doesn't make you feel better when not depressed! When depressed one is not only alienated from the rest of the world, but alienated from oneself as well. There is little or no connection to the outside world.
You simply cannot "Pull yourself together."
Otherwise people would do that and this thread wouldn't exist. It is not a state of mind one chooses.

As I constantly keep saying, depression is not about feeling sorry for oneself. This is a popular misconception.

mattyrm wrote:
But the point i was making was real though, there is always someone in the world worse off than you. Try and put yourself in their shoes and your outlook will be brighter.

I really don't want to turn this thread into an argument, but I have to say this isn't particularly helpful advice to a person suffering from depression. The nature of the disease is such that you can't really 'snap yourself out of it'. What makes it a disorder at all is the fact that it is out of control.

Thinglike wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
But the point i was making was real though, there is always someone in the world worse off than you. Try and put yourself in their shoes and your outlook will be brighter.

I really don't want to turn this thread into an argument, but I have to say this isn't particularly helpful advice to a person suffering from depression. The nature of the disease is such that you can't really 'snap yourself out of it'. What makes it a disorder at all is the fact that it is out of control.

How can it NOT turn into an argument if thats your bloody attitude? I can do angry as well if thats the way you want to go.

If we say "come on guys, its not so bad, brighten up" then we are the bad guys?

I dont suffer from depression. I dont like getting up for work when its raining, but i do it. I dont like the fact that the whole world is basically in a gak state, but i dont allow it to affect my life, i sieze confidence and happiness by the balls and i dont allow negitive people to make me wish i was dead. Thats just the way it is.

Im not saying that depression doesnt suck if your unlucky enough to get it, but what the hell do you want people that dont have it or suffer from it to say to you other than "that sucks mate" and fawn on you with some fake sympathy?

If "try and put yourself in someone elses shoes and cheer up" makes you angry and its "unhelpful" what the hell do you want me to say? Cool story bro?

Go see a frigging doctor then.

Or just sit on the internet and have a nice little chat room where all the depressed people can get together and you can all say how awesome you are and pat each others backs for being depressed. Cos your clearly not interested in people that dont suffer from it having an opinion.

Go give a doctor your life story. I care not at all. It seems to me the people that whine about depression all read "twilight" and wear tye dye shirts anyway.

I never met a Royal Marine or a Bricklayer or a Plumber that whinged and whined about it on a forum all day and got offended when people told them to pull their socks up. But best of luck lads, i hope you manage to get out of the appalling situations your probably not in.

Well, it's relative.

Depression is relative. It's fairly dismissive to say 'well, I've been through X and that's far worse, so get over yourself' because people are different.

My mate and his missus get desperately upset when she has to leave Briz and head back to Brighton, a couple of hours away on a train, my wife is on the other side of the Atlantic and I'm waiting months to get the permanent residency visa to move there, my initial reaction is 'why do they think they should be upset when they are two hours away in the same damned country... But to them, they are still separated from each other, Atlantic or a train journey, there is still that distance, their upset at being apart is tangible to them, they are still apart.

A large part of depression is all about not being able to see outside your particular box, not being able to relate to the saying 'whatever is happening to me, there are thousands all around the world who'd love to be going through what I'm going through'. Depression turns your brain into a hamster in a wheel, running and running, churning over and over things and still getting nowhere.

And not enough people understand the difference between actual clinical depression and 'feeling a bit low'. People in an actual depressive state are under the influence of chemicals being released into their brains. You all must have seen some scifi or other where they defeat the robots or computer or whatever by giving it a 'feedback loop', that's how depression works on the brain, causing a repeating series of detrimental chemicals and thoughts, this leads to other physiological problems.

So yes, Mattyrm is correct in saying 'if those people went through all that, I doubt they'd be so depressed about their girlfriends leaving them', I imagine that would indeed give you whole new reasons to get depressed... A great deal of people who go through combat situations then suffer with depression and mental disorders on returning to 'normal' society.

But, there isn't a qualifying level of horrors you have to go through to suffer from it, as I said, it's relative to your circumstances.

Hey mate, i was clearly joking by saying "Go live in a cave for 12 months and everything will be awesome when you get back"

The point is, it seems ridiculous to instantly dismiss saying that having a healthier attitude and trying your best to smile is not "helpful"

I dont understand the point of the thread if you dont want peoples opinions and you just want to feel sorry for yourself.

Im pretty sure a Doctor would recommend steps to take and talking to someone over instantly tossing the happy pills about.

MeanGreenStompa wrote:Well, it's relative.

, My family frequently depress me as well.

mattyrm wrote:Hey mate, i was clearly joking by saying "Go live in a cave for 12 months and everything will be awesome when you get back"

The point is, it seems ridiculous to instantly dismiss saying that having a healthier attitude and trying your best to smile is not "helpful"

I dont understand the point of the thread if you dont want peoples opinions and you just want to feel sorry for yourself.

Im pretty sure a Doctor would recommend steps to take and talking to someone over instantly tossing the happy pills about.

Not in the US. We pop pills like candy. We pop pills like the Doctors are getting kickbacks and benies from the pharmacy companies, er wait...

The point of the thread was pretty obvious
It was not "Depression is real?" discuss.

but I'm only seeking intelligent conversations.

You just don't suffer doesn't mean it ain't real, or everyone else is faking. Thanks for derailing the thread

Some support from the mods to keep an important and serious subject on topic would have been useful, but instead you set a great example by helping derail it

Who are you talking to Chibi?

Here's the OP

Well seeing how there are all sort of 'thinking mans' threads popping up, and considering I haven't made any meaningful posts since I registered here I have decided to start a thread on depression!

Anyone here have depression? How do you cope with this chemical imbalance? What kind of things get you depressed?

Mattyrm is offering a different viewpoint. It doesn't violate Dakka rules. Dispute the viewpoint.

You and Matty

You both seem to think that it is okay to be so flippant about the issue. I am merely putting the counter argument.




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FWIW now unsubscribing as the thread has unravelled

Again
the issue is a serious one. If Matty has point of view that invilves neither bullts nor beer then fine.
He is, to use the vernacular, taking the pee.

His view has been discredited several times over already in the thread.
There is no need to start with that line again.
Don't take our word for it.

You and Matty

You both seem to think that it is okay to be so flippant about the issue. I am merely putting the counter argument.

I don't think he's being flippant. He's representing a serious view by many people. As noted, dispute him with facts as Redy did.
As for me: I haven't posted at all and you don't have a ing clue on my thoughts on it. If you did you wouldn't be talking out of your hole like that.

FWIW now unsubscribing as the thread has unravelled

Yep you're free not to post.

mattyrm wrote:

Thinglike wrote:

mattyrm wrote:
But the point i was making was real though, there is always someone in the world worse off than you. Try and put yourself in their shoes and your outlook will be brighter.

I really don't want to turn this thread into an argument, but I have to say this isn't particularly helpful advice to a person suffering from depression. The nature of the disease is such that you can't really 'snap yourself out of it'. What makes it a disorder at all is the fact that it is out of control.

How can it NOT turn into an argument if thats your bloody attitude? I can do angry as well if thats the way you want to go.

If we say "come on guys, its not so bad, brighten up" then we are the bad guys?

I dont suffer from depression. I dont like getting up for work when its raining, but i do it. I dont like the fact that the whole world is basically in a gak state, but i dont allow it to affect my life, i sieze confidence and happiness by the balls and i dont allow negitive people to make me wish i was dead. Thats just the way it is.

Im not saying that depression doesnt suck if your unlucky enough to get it, but what the hell do you want people that dont have it or suffer from it to say to you other than "that sucks mate" and fawn on you with some fake sympathy?

If "try and put yourself in someone elses shoes and cheer up" makes you angry and its "unhelpful" what the hell do you want me to say? Cool story bro?

Go see a frigging doctor then.

Or just sit on the internet and have a nice little chat room where all the depressed people can get together and you can all say how awesome you are and pat each others backs for being depressed. Cos your clearly not interested in people that dont suffer from it having an opinion.

Go give a doctor your life story. I care not at all. It seems to me the people that whine about depression all read "twilight" and wear tye dye shirts anyway.

I never met a Royal Marine or a Bricklayer or a Plumber that whinged and whined about it on a forum all day and got offended when people told them to pull their socks up. But best of luck lads, i hope you manage to get out of the appalling situations your probably not in.

Yes, you are the bad guy here. The fact is, you've come in with a dismissive attitude, then said that anyone who makes suggestions in this thread is going to be labeled as unhelpful, when that clearly isn't the case. I think it is just as well you're honest about how you feel, because it illustrates the problem.

You've already said you don't suffer from depression, so what do you really have that is useful to add here? In other words, I would say that the people originally interested in this thread are indeed not interested in the opinions of those not suffering or have in the past dealt with depression.

Did you even read my response? What I suggested, from my personal experience, was to not sit around and feel sorry for yourself, but take an active role in getting better.

You're apparently hung up on the concept that depression is by definition different than feeling sad, or down, and can happen in people who have very good things going on in their life. You seem to feel that there is no such thing as a depressive illness, and that everyone is able to "suck it up". You're welcome to that opinion, and I'm sure you'll find people who share it, but the vast majority of Doctors and the field of medicine in general doesn't agree with you.

I've taken action to make my life better, and I had an opportunity to share so that maybe other people could benefit. Before you accuse people of being entirely wrapped up in themselves and whining, you need to take a long look in the mirror.

I don't understand what the proffesion statement was at the end. I don't know about the others you mentioned, but you should know that statistically individuals in the military are more likely than the general population to need mental health services. The same thing goes for emergency service providers. So you're statement is not only not appropos but it is false.


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Frazzled wrote:

You and Matty

You both seem to think that it is okay to be so flippant about the issue. I am merely putting the counter argument.

I don't think he's being flippant. He's representing a serious view by many people. As noted, dispute him with facts as Redy did.
As for me: I haven't posted at all and you don't have a ing clue on my thoughts on it. If you did you wouldn't be talking out of your hole like that.

FWIW now unsubscribing as the thread has unravelled

Yep you're free not to post.

Frazz, I'm sorry, but the comment wasn't apropos. He isn't arguing from facts, every statement he has made is false, as I pointed out. He doesn't represent a serious view held by many people, he represents an ignorant, stigmatizing view that isn't held by educated people, including almost everyone in the medical profession.

Grignard wrote: you are the bad guy

he represents an ignorant, stigmatizing view that isn't held by educated people, including almost everyone in the medical profession.

Lol. Calm down Dawson, just sit and chat with Pacey and then let us know how you feel inside.

I certainly didnt make any blanket statements or was even short with anyone until you guys started getting all emotional. I didnt call anyone any names either, i merely said in a humorous way (trying to have a sense of humour in adversity always cheers me up) "try and be more positive" or "seek medical assistance" Its you who started calling people names.

And my view "isnt held by educated people" eh? I beg to differ. A good doctor doesnt start tossing pills about, my missus gets depression, its bloody irritating, and as a result i do actually know something about the illness. I just dont mince my words enough for you, but your not my girlfriend.

First of all, you dont even know me Dawson. Im certainly not uneducated, but thats neither here nor there, i dont want to get into name calling or give you my life story or even get into a debate with you, i merely got asked for an opinion and gave it.

Fly over and ill give you a nice manly hug, it might make you feel better.

Frazz, I'm sorry, but the comment wasn't apropos. He isn't arguing from facts, every statement he has made is false, as I pointed out. He doesn't represent a serious view held by many people,

How does he not hold a serious view held by many people? Have you polled them? Mental illness is viewed extremely suspiciously in the US, if nothing else due to a plethora of worker's comp shirkers who hav been found to be...shirking.

he represents an ignorant, stigmatizing view that isn't held by educated people, including almost everyone in the medical profession.

Again-proof helps here. You also have to bifurcate the garden variety depression and clinical medically induced depression (feeling down vs. chemically induced depression) and what professionals say about each. I'd note your statements are also "ignorant" in directly attacking a fellow poster.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but calling people ignorant is just ignorant. Use facts, studies, edumacation here. it may be helpful to those are down or even clinically depressed.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:
Fly over and ill give you a nice manly hug, it might make you feel better.

I sense a trap!

I do think we need to bifurcate between "feeling down" (someone has a btter term here please insert) and chemically induced depression.

mattyrm wrote:

Grignard wrote: you are the bad guy

he represents an ignorant, stigmatizing view that isn't held by educated people, including almost everyone in the medical profession.

Lol. Calm down Dawson, just sit and chat with Pacey and then let us know how you feel inside.

I certainly didnt make any blanket statements or was even short with anyone until you guys started getting all emotional. I didnt call anyone any names either, i merely said in a humorous way (trying to have a sense of humour in adversity always cheers me up) "try and be more positive" or "seek medical assistance" Its you who started calling people names.

And my view "isnt held by educated people" eh? I beg to differ. A good doctor doesnt start tossing pills about, my missus gets depression, its bloody irritating, and as a result i do actually know something about the illness. I just dont mince my words enough for you, but your not my girlfriend.

First of all, you dont even know me Dawson. Im certainly not uneducated, but thats neither here nor there, i dont want to get into name calling or give you my life story or even get into a debate with you, i merely got asked for an opinion and gave it.

Fly over and ill give you a nice manly hug, it might make you feel better.

I didn't call you any names, nor tried to insult you. When I said you were ignorant, I meant that in the actual definition of the word, that is, not knowledgeable of the facts. When I say the opinion held by educated people, what I mean is that the people doing the research and the people employed in mental health do not, by a vast majority, agree with you.

I'm not upset nor trying to insult you, I'm just pointing out that you have an opinion that people are going to call you out on, and that your point of view wasn't what the OP was asking about.


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Frazzled wrote:

Frazz, I'm sorry, but the comment wasn't apropos. He isn't arguing from facts, every statement he has made is false, as I pointed out. He doesn't represent a serious view held by many people,

How does he not hold a serious view held by many people? Have you polled them? Mental illness is viewed extremely suspiciously in the US, if nothing else due to a plethora of worker's comp shirkers who hav been found to be...shirking.

he represents an ignorant, stigmatizing view that isn't held by educated people, including almost everyone in the medical profession.

Again-proof helps here. You also have to bifurcate the garden variety depression and clinical medically induced depression (feeling down vs. chemically induced depression) and what professionals say about each. I'd note your statements are also "ignorant" in directly attacking a fellow poster.

I don't have a dog in this hunt, but calling people ignorant is just ignorant. Use facts, studies, edumacation here. it may be helpful to those are down or even clinically depressed.





Automatically Appended Next Post:

mattyrm wrote:
Fly over and ill give you a nice manly hug, it might make you feel better.

I sense a trap!

I do think we need to bifurcate between "feeling down" (someone has a btter term here please insert) and chemically induced depression.

Frazz, I don't need to present facts or data here for the same reason that I don't need evidence to support the claim that the earth is a sphere. Its all been done before and is wildly available.

i believe the CDC has a section concerning mental health on their website. I think Chibi posted a link to NAMI earlier in the forum. For that matter, a good psychology text should have all the history of modern medicine as it applies to mental health.

He's welcome to his opinion, but no, no one who shares his opinion is taken seriously by people a lot more knowledgeable than me who work in the field.

Grignard wrote: He's welcome to his opinion, but no, no one who shares his opinion is taken seriously by people a lot more knowledgeable than me who work in the field.

So go on then, whats my opinion?

I said "try and think of those worse of than yourself" and "try and be positive" and "seek medical advice"

I didnt once say "depression is a crock and people should stop being gay" i just said that a positive attitude can help, and i only got slightly arsey after my clearly sarcastic comment caused you lot to get upset for no good reason (probably because your depressed?)

My missus get despression, and i didnt press the issue at all that you seem to have invented which is "there is no such thing as depression and if you have it you are being a wimp/weirdo/big girls blouse"

You seem to be arguing with yourself mate. Ive no axe to grind with people that get or suffer from said ailment.

Now that we've worked through that unpleasantness, can we move back OT.

Are we giong with clinical depression here or "down in the dumps." If just clinical depression isn't the only answer chemicals-help me out here peops.

Frazzled wrote:Now that we've worked through that unpleasantness, can we move back OT.

Are we giong with clinical depression here or "down in the dumps." If just clinical depression isn't the only answer chemicals-help me out here peops.

Chemicals counter chemicals, you're right about that Frazzled. But if it were that simple this thread would have dropped like a rock.

Since I haven't read anything that suggests anyone here has dealt with anything other then 'down in the dumps' or 'clinical depression' I'll throw my life into the ring as the third type if you will. I was clinicaly depressed for a number of years, but this was not due to any experiance nor was it because of medical depression. I have ADD, the kind that caused me to spend half an hour looking for my shoes because I couldn't remember they were my feet (this part isn't a joke I thought I was slowed). I went undiagnosed for most of my life and the difficulty that I had in doing what seemed to be simple tasks to EVERYONE around me filled me with that special kind of anger that you see in teenagers around the world. For awhile I just mopped like most people do and I kept telling myself that I would get better but I never did. Then a friend of mine was diagnosed with depression and they took the meds and they got all better. I didn't like this, to me that person changed too much and wasn't my friend anymore but someone else and because I was afraid of one day waking up 20yrs later while essentially someone else had lived my life for me, I refused to let any doctor diagnose me as depressed (or anything at all) and I instead did exactly what mattyrm suggested weither he was serious or not and it worked wonderfully for a little while.

The problem with that approach isn't that it isn't effective, it's that it is exhausting mentally and physically. I knew that the people around me had an easier time with homework assignements and remembering things and I hated them for it but I ignored as much of that as I could because I was doing better in school and just by trying a little harder then those around me I could do just as well as them. I could make things work and tell myself "It'll get easier as I get used to it" but it never did. Then I got to the point where I had to start making "moral decisions", and I remeber having the mind set something like "Everyone has it easier with everything so I should just do what makes life easier\better for me". Like this one time I had a small argument with a kid who I didn't really know anything about, he was one of them in my mind. I can't even remember what it was about, something in gym class I think, he was beating me in the verbal fight; stuff like name calling and insulting ones Grandmother so I decided it would be much easier to over react so I attacked him. Like most people at any age he wasn't expecting a real fight so he pretty much curled up and let me beat the out of him. Life goes on like that where destructive decisions that make things easier at first or makes everything seem better often at the expense of others seemed like the best option and if you're smart enough to make it work you won't ever see a down side to this point of view. I can easily imagine not ever growing out of that mind set. I however wasn't good enough to keep it up, everything around me eventually fell apart and I finally went to a doctor (in fact several at first). I am now on Adderall for my ADD and I have to say life is %100 easier, it's not easy street or anything like that but it is much more managable then before.

I definitely agree with you Computergeek. My ADHD was responsible for a lot of my depression/anxiety. I am on Vyvanse which is a stimulant much like adderall. It has helped a lot, however, I am still challenged by a lot of things. Parenthood was the trigger for a lot of my issues. I was bad before I had my son, but the last 2 and half years have been bad. I am pretty sure that my child is picking up on the negativity in my life, and it is shaping him as a person, and for that I feel terrible. I am trying to figure out how to learn coping skills, and I am failing at that.

mattyrm wrote:

Grignard wrote: He's welcome to his opinion, but no, no one who shares his opinion is taken seriously by people a lot more knowledgeable than me who work in the field.

So go on then, whats my opinion?

I said "try and think of those worse of than yourself" and "try and be positive" and "seek medical advice"

I didnt once say "depression is a crock and people should stop being gay" i just said that a positive attitude can help, and i only got slightly arsey after my clearly sarcastic comment caused you lot to get upset for no good reason (probably because your depressed?)

My missus get despression, and i didnt press the issue at all that you seem to have invented which is "there is no such thing as depression and if you have it you are being a wimp/weirdo/big girls blouse"

You seem to be arguing with yourself mate. Ive no axe to grind with people that get or suffer from said ailment.

Alright, fair enough. I think everyone got off kilter and started shouting. I wasn't who reported the post so I can't speak for anyone else. I realize that ignorant is often used as a general insult and I did not intend it that way. I felt that an earlier post of yours showed ignorance ( lack of specific knowledge). Also, I did not intend to imply you were not educated. I don't know your educational background but you express yourself well enough. I think someone can have a PhD in economics, or some such, and still express an uneducated point of view. Opinions are like that.

I don't know if the earlier post was entirely hyperbole, but if you're in a military unit like that, you've probably been selected partly on psychological resilience. It would follow that you have the ability to internally tell yourself to feel better in stressful situations.

Ironically, if you read my earlier posts I'm saying similar things you're trying to say, but probably coming from a different perspective. For me, I believe it was very important to adopt a positive attitude and take control of my own psychological health. I believe, and have been told by doctors, that exercise is one of the best things you can do, for both depression as defined by medical science and regular crabbiness and feeling sorry for oneself.




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loranafaeriequeen wrote:I definitely agree with you Computergeek. My ADHD was responsible for a lot of my depression/anxiety. I am on Vyvanse which is a stimulant much like adderall. It has helped a lot, however, I am still challenged by a lot of things. Parenthood was the trigger for a lot of my issues. I was bad before I had my son, but the last 2 and half years have been bad. I am pretty sure that my child is picking up on the negativity in my life, and it is shaping him as a person, and for that I feel terrible. I am trying to figure out how to learn coping skills, and I am failing at that.

Another reason why people should take an active role in their health care. It is easy for a practitioner to write you an antidepressant when there might be something else going on. I'm a big believer in asking questions and doing your own research, and that goes for any sort of medical problem.