Autoguns MIA?

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**nomadzhao**

When described in Dark Heresy there are also keen differences between the grouping of Lasguns and Autoguns. The Autoguns basically could fire on full-auto, and had much smaller ammo clips. Also a couple of them could be thought of as the heavy magnums or magnum-revolvers we have now-a-days.

Also the auto-gun had the penetration (Besides the long-las or however it was called, that had penetration), whereas the Lasguns had "reliable"

**Melissia**

grayspark wrote:When described in Dark Heresy there are also keen differences between the grouping of Lasguns and Autoguns. The Autoguns basically could fire on full-auto, and had much smaller ammo clips. Also a couple of them could be thought of as the heavy magnums or magnum-revolvers we have now-a-days.

Also the auto-gun had the penetration (Besides the long-las or however it was called, that had penetration), whereas the Lasguns had "reliable"

"Hand Cannons" are stub weaponry, not auto-weaponry. IE, they're not caseless. They're basically magnum revolvers.

Autoguns and autopistols are the only members of the auto-weapon family. Stub weapons such as stub revolvers, stub automatics, and stub rifles are in an entirely different family.

Also, the Dark Heresy depiction of lasguns is on the low end of the scale. Plenty of other sources state that the lasgun has a fully automatic setting and hundreds of shots per battery.

**Mattlov**

Grey Templar wrote:the logic is that a Lasgun actually cauterizes any wounds and the energy is easily absorbed by clothing and any other matierial.

Fail.

A laser weapon of any kind will not particularly cauterize a wound, unless it is only going to put a minor burn on a target to begin with. A laser weapon of any strength would leave a horrible wound as the shot flash boiled fluids it contacted.

"That's not that bad" you say?

Imagine a shot to your abdomen that punches all the way to your stomach. Your midsection just exploded in a spray of stomach acid and partially digested food. A hit to a limb would probably remove said limb by violent separation.

If your SHIRT is deflecting energy of a combat weapon, you aren't getting hit by a combat weapon. You can get sunburnt through clothing. And sitting in the sun isn't exactly military grade firepower.

**Che-Vito**

Mattlov wrote: And sitting in the sun isn't exactly military grade firepower.

Unless you're in California...where this deadly weapon has also been banned!

**The Odessey**

Sitting ON the sun? That burns me up!

**Melissia**

Very punny.

But anyway, Autoguns are relatively equal to lasguns.

HOWEVER!

Autoguns with special ammunition are better than lasguns. Manstopper rounds would be roughly AP6, for example. Dunno what HDP (High Density Penetrators) rounds would be-- S5 AP6, reduced range by 6"?

**Gwar!**

You're saying that slightly heavier bullets somehow are equal in strength to the pulse technology used by the Tau?

**Belphegor**

In Rogue Trader (1st ed Wh40k, not the role-playing game), autoguns were basically lasguns with a 32 inch maximum range. This was changed to 24 inches in 2nd edition.
Another notable deviation in regards to small arms, boltgun shots had a 1/2 inch blast radius.
Also there was no rapid-fire game mechanic. Range determined a to-hit penalty.

Rules-wise, I think the game would benefit from a "Basic" category of weapons.
   Basic: Allows for movement and a full number of shots, but disallows assault.
   Example: Bolt-Action Rifle - Rng: 24" / Str: 3 / AP: - / Basic: 1
   or
   Example: Tau Pulse Rifle - Rng: 30" / Str: 5 / AP: 4 / Basic: 2

**Gwar!**

Belphegor wrote:Another notable deviation in regards to small arms, boltgun shots had a 1/2 inch blast radius.

As much as I would LOVE to see this again, it would:
a) Be kind of pointless, as it would 99% of the time NEVER hit more than 1 Model.
2) Be really annoying to have to roll a scatter dice and 2D6 20 times
iii) Did I mention 20 scatter dice?

**Melissia**

Gwar! wrote:You're saying that slightly heavier bullets somehow are equal in strength to the pulse technology used by the Tau?

That's not all they are.

Regardless, "strength" is merely an approximation of how easily a weapon can wound an individual.

**Belphegor**

about 1/2 inch blasts...
   Really bolt guns should have a blast of zero inches (swarms).
   You could represent the micro-blast either through a diminishing-recursive hit or wound role.
   For Bolters I would see something like a single to-wound recursion at -2 str and -2 AP on successful wounds.
   So for a Astartes Bolters all successful wounds would grant an additional Str 2, AP - wound roll. Heavy Bolters would grant Str 3, Ap6.

   Which would further distance them from other small arms and better illustrate their described ability for grimdark-body-bursty.

on topic
   I envision Autoguns to be: Rng: 24" / Str: 3 / AP: - / Basic 2
   (0.75 points more than a lasgun, round up in the current IG codex)

**The Odessey**

I would still love to see some AP value on them even if its just for show. Seeing the AP- on lasguns is so damn depressing.

**sebster**

Melissia wrote:Also, the Dark Heresy depiction of lasguns is on the low end of the scale. Plenty of other sources state that the lasgun has a fully automatic setting and hundreds of shots per battery.

Sure, but it has to be understood in the context of what Dark Heresy was trying to achieve - they wanted a situation where players had reasons to take either autoguns or lasguns. So they gave the lasgun greater ammo and reliability, and made the autogun capable of fully automatic fire. It's a pretty decent trade-off, do you want the staying power of the lasgun or straight up firepower of a fully automatic weapon?

It doesn't really work, unfortunately, as full autofire is too effective by the rules as given. But neither weapon is used for long in its standard form, before players move on to bigger and louder boomsticks.

Automatically Appended Next Post:

Belphegor wrote:Rules-wise, I think the game would benefit from a "Basic" category of weapons.
   Basic: Allows for movement and a full number of shots, but disallows assault.
   Example: Bolt-Action Rifle - Rng: 24" / Str: 3 / AP: - / Basic: 1
   or
   Example: Tau Pulse Rifle - Rng: 30" / Str: 5 / AP: 4 / Basic: 2

So you basically want to give the double tap rule to the Tau pulse rifle at any range, while removing that ability from lasguns at any range? Apart from the balance issues, why get rid of the rule that encourages shooting units to get up close and actually make 40K a game about close quarters gunfire?

It's been a fairly big part of design for a while now to get shooting units to actually move about the board.

**The Odessey**

Anything more on topic? For example any PROPOSED RULES for the autoguns. I think counting them as lasguns is a half-assed solution, if you'll excuse me.

**Melissia**

The Odessey wrote:Anything more on topic? For example any PROPOSED RULES for the autoguns. I think counting them as lasguns is a half-assed solution, if you'll excuse me.

Fluffwise that's the most accurate way to depict them, unless you're counting special ammunition, which are not going to be distributed to common Guardsmen.

**TyraelVladinhurst**

Melissia wrote:
The Odessey wrote:Anything more on topic? For example any PROPOSED RULES for the autoguns. I think counting them as lasguns is a half-assed solution, if you'll excuse me.
Fluffwise that's the most accurate way to depict them, unless you're counting special ammunition, which are not going to be distributed to common Guardsmen.

i disagree... as stated before they should be range 18" str 3 ap - assault 2 weapons. shorter range makes up for the single extra shot IMO

**Belphegor**

sebster:
So you basically want to give the double tap rule to the Tau pulse rifle at any range, while removing that ability from lasguns at any range? Apart from the balance issues, why get rid of the rule that encourages shooting units to get up close and actually make 40K a game about close quarters gunfire?

It's been a fairly big part of design for a while now to get shooting units to actually move about the board.

The 18-24" inch mark feels more like the end of the close quarter range rather than 12". I think having the design element for non-assault flat-shot weapons would allow for greater diversity of small arms. A sort of a light-heavy weapons. It would also give more of a reason to stray from the 6" range thresholds.
The increased functionality of units with alternate deployment and the inclusion of objectives serves the purpose of moving the shooters more than weapon type.

I believe Rapid Fire should stay, as with Assault, Pistol & Heavy Weapons. I do think the system is missing a more Basic category that would allow more deviance for small arm design, outside of damage capability.

**Melissia**

TyraelVladinhurst wrote:i disagree... as stated before they should be range 18" str 3 ap - assault 2 weapons. shorter range makes up for the single extra shot IMO

That is unfluffy, because their ranges are roughly equivalent, as is their rate of fire in most depictions. There is no fluff supporting that an autogun has the rate of fire of the double barreled storm bolter, which is basically a bolter LMG.

**TyraelVladinhurst**

that is true, however i am basing this off of playing firewarrior for forever and those stats do fit with that type of autogun

**Bash the Bosh**

When considering solid ammunition (5.56mm,7.62mm,.50 cal etc) in my experience,the worst injuries are the ones you can't see...

5.56mm was designed to incapacitate, to increase stresses on the enemy's resources i.e a severly wounded soldier would take two others to carry, then he would require medical treatment etc. Multiply this 15 fold and you have alot of troops taken out of the equasion.

7.62mm is good at it's job which is to kill, as proven during the Falklands war when the SLR was the basic weapn of choice for us Brits. Also the GPMG is still used as fire-support despite being nearly 40 years old.

The 5.56mm travels at around 3000m/s, but is unstable during flight. More often than not, it tumbles and will almost always hit the casualty facing backwards, meaning a larger surface area is hitting the target. This means more damage is caused as the energy is dispersed into the target:

http://mcadams.posc.mu.edu/images/gel2.jpg

As you can see the large bulge to the right of the gel block is the largest, as the energy is released. Imagine this is the human body, the large cavity caused in a vascular area such as the abdomen mean horrific damage to tissues and organs. The sudden increase in volume causes a vacuum, sucking in any debris that was following in the rounds wake. This vacuum then closes in on itself, trapping said debris etc inside the tissues. Not only does necrosis start almost immediately, but the infection caused is almost instantaneous. That doesn't even take into account blood loss and bone damage.

The thing with 5.56mm is that the exit wound may not be on the opposite side of the entry wound. I have had a casualty where he had taken a round to the right leg,the round travelled up the femur, up the torso and exited out the top of the right shoulder.

So is solid ammunition good. Yes. It does it's job perfectly. Obviously the bigger the round, the more damage caused. .50 cal only has to pass within 1/2 of an inch to remove your arm from your body.It doesn't need to actually hit you.

Guys, this is what I wrote for 'Solid Ammunition - Good or Bad?'

I just posted this here to show the effects of a solid round. I've read some posts on this thread that 'assume' the extent of damage caused by solid rounds. Now you have some evidence. Not getting involved as such, nor attempting to de-rail. It's just that both threads have similarities.

**Melissia**

Noone is seriously doubting the effectiveness of solid ammunition, though some people ARE seriously underestimating the power of a lasgun.

**TyraelVladinhurst**

i quote my friend's saying about lasguns. "Everyone needs a flash light as eventually it does get dark."

**skysky**

I agree that lasguns are underestimated. No they wont do much to a marine in 3" of plasteel, but to a soft tissue target they would be just as effective as solid round. A solid round uses hydrostatic shock to pulverize a much larger area and path than the round. The energy transfer from a las round would essentially evaporate said area.

From an accuracy standpoint I would go with a lasgun as light is much less effected by gravity and wind than a bullet. but range limitations would still be present from dissipation. Guvung your gaurdsmen lasguns is pretty much as close as you can get to point and shoot weapons.

For special ammo and silencers yes solid ammo is better. Somewhat hard to silence superheated atmosphere. Yes hot shots shoot like a Barret .50cal but do they have incindeary (probably cuz its a frikkin' lazzer), what about fragmentation rounds a U.S. sniper hit 3 insurgents behind a wall with a .50 cal, kina hard to do with a laser beam.

On a side note who else wants boltgun rounds to do D3 damage...I mean wounds

It is a handheld artillary piece

**Melissia**

Noone who cares about balance or fluff does. No piece of fluff has ever shown boltguns directly damaging any more than one target at a time except for maybe swarms of insects or something.

**BeRzErKeR**

Melissia wrote:Noone who cares about balance or fluff does. No piece of fluff has ever shown boltguns directly damaging any more than one target at a time except for maybe swarms of insects or something.

Actually, I believe in some of the Horus Heresy books several targets are knocked down by one bolter shell. I'll have to look it up.

**Grey Templar**

if they made SMs 2 pts more expensive and dropped Krak grenades as Standard issue(kept them as an option though) i would be happy with a bolter doing D3 wounds to a unit/model of T3 or lower.

a bolter wouldn't do D3 wounds to a carnifex, but most certaintly to a Eldar Farseer.

**Melissia**

And I'd think it's idiotic and unbalanced. An entire army of units that can do this, including vehicles? Even if it would also be applied to my Sisters, I'd think that change is one of the dumbest things GW has done, and they've done a lot of stupid things in my eyes...

edit: Blah. Typo after typo... I really need some sleep...

**BeRzErKeR**

Melissia wrote:And I'd think it's idiotic and unbalanced. An entire army of units that can do this, including vehicles? Even if it would also be applied to my Sisters, I'd think that change is one of the dumbest things GW has done, and they've done a lot of stupid things in my eyes...

Oh, certainly, it would be terrifically unbalanced. It would be fluffy, but then fluff has practically no place on the tabletop.

**Melissia**

It wouldn't really be fluffy, either. There are a few minor depictions that support this, but the vast majority don't, including Dark Heresy and (IIRC) Inquisitor.

**The Odessey**

Fluff wise here’s the basic overview with sources:
Las Weaponry- Heats up target using lasers
-Large ammo capacity, can be charged like a battery
-Cauterizes wounds, not a lot of bleeding- however can sever limbs similar to a cutting laser (Source-Gaunts Ghosts)
-No deviation of fire (accurate) its a beam of pure energy the only time it'll stop is if something is in the way.
-Hot shot packs. 1 full power blast (Omnibus and Gaunts Ghosts)
-Reliable, cheap and easy to produce
-Punches through flesh and bone. ITS A LASER

Solid Slug weapons Such as auto-weapons and slug style weaponry
-Stopping power, stopping power, stopping power. Nothing halts a charger like a pound of flying lead.
-Punishing rate of fire (referring to the Heavy Stubber here, as quoted from Codex:IG)
-Hard rounds cause massive wounds (like real bullets, they have a small entry hole and a LARGE exit)
-Can accept silencers (Gaunts Ghosts) and flash suppressers (snipers, last story in IG Omnibus)
-Cheap to produce
-Think modern weapons. Autoguns are old school.