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Speaking as a guy who uses Shining Spears in every game I play, I can tell you that their shooting is, in fact, awful. Maybe you get a glancing hit on a tank. Whoo-hoo. The twin-linked catapults aren't terrible for shredding light infantry, but the lances are poop.

In combat, they're pretty good at killing tanks, but not any better than marines. They get 8 St6 and 3 St8 attacks - so, just like a tactical squad with a power fist. I can usually expect to hurt a tank every turn and kill one every other turn with the Spears.

They do not, in fact, suck against hordes. Maybe this is because of the style I play, where my Spears are always supported by plenty of Dire Avenger and missile launcher fire, but I never have problems cleaning up Guard platoons, gaunts, etc. In part this is because the horde usually can't all be terrain, so the spears hit first, and in part it's because they can soften them up with the Shurikens first, but they can clean house and then hit and run to try again. Keep in mind, with an Autarch they should kill 10 or so models on the charge, and chances are the enemy won't do nearly as much damage to them. Then the bad guys take a Ld at a huge penalty and usually get caught by the I5 Eldar.

Maybe they stink if you charge held on into 30 orks with 6 power klaws in the unit, but if you do that you're an idiot anyway. Use the Spears as part of your army, cooperating with other units, and they'll be fine.

Saber wrote:In combat, they're pretty good at killing tanks, but not any better than marines. They get 8 St6 and 3 St8 attacks - so, just like a tactical squad with a power fist. I can usually expect to hurt a tank every turn and kill one every other turn with the Spears.

I want some of those tactical squads, the ones that get 8 S6 attacks.

whitedragon wrote:

Saber wrote:In combat, they're pretty good at killing tanks, but not any better than marines. They get 8 St6 and 3 St8 attacks - so, just like a tactical squad with a power fist. I can usually expect to hurt a tank every turn and kill one every other turn with the Spears.

I want some of those tactical squads, the ones that get 8 S6 attacks.

Vs a vehicle, a Tactical squad on the charge will have 9 S6 attacks - because of Krak Grenades and, assuming they are equipped with a Power-Fist, 3 additional S 8 attacks at I 1.

@Whitedragon
DD2 with Eldar FTW! I bet they have a new dex by then!

And who doesn't have good results against tanks with Tactical marines with a fist?

Some of the stuff popping up here boggles my mind.

Simple math says:

1 BS 5 str 8 lance shot has slightly less than a 5o% chance of damaging a vehicle. Against side armor 10, as with a chimera or AV11 with a Rhino, you have very good odds of scoring a pen, above 50%. Baring bad luck, you should be damaging vehicles consistently with these guys. As always, take multiples of the unit to get far better results.

4 strength 6 attacks, 2 hit on average (if an average tank moves fast it isn't shooting meaning you are dictating the game) 1 pen and that tank is being damaged for sure.

3 strength 8 means two hit on average, which means an average of 2 pens, which means the vehicle is most likely dead.

That is rolling straight average.

That is on a cheap unit that is fast and can engage dedicated shooting units.

What's not to like? Take three of them and you triple your odds.

Well, maybe they aren't for everyone. But like I said, I use them, and minimum jetbikes squads with a warlock with spear to reliably take down vehicles consistently. Others results may vary.

Okay, you can a sing a prayer for SS.
However, they are vulnerable while they approach the enemy.
One casualty and the unit (3 or 4 SS) can be gone.
I stay away from them in the current edition.
Fire Dragons can pop tanks reliably and the Serpent is useful in various situations as already said above.

soften them up with the Shurikens first, but they can clean house and then hit and run to try again.

Which could result in you fudging a charge range.
If you don't fire, well, that's more bodies for the ensuing combat.

In addition, you do not want to hit and run after the first round of combat unless you have some crazy convient LoS blocking terrain like 3" away from them...

The reason they are not good against numerous opponents is because of the 5th ed Reaction Moves. They lost their ability to 'clip' a squad to maximize damage and minimize damage back.

Sure, combined arms is the way to go, but they lose that ability to abuse the kill zone to make them quite self-sufficient in the issue of combat. So this just means that GW made a hard to use unit, even harder to use.

MinMax wrote:

whitedragon wrote:

Saber wrote:In combat, they're pretty good at killing tanks, but not any better than marines. They get 8 St6 and 3 St8 attacks - so, just like a tactical squad with a power fist. I can usually expect to hurt a tank every turn and kill one every other turn with the Spears.

I want some of those tactical squads, the ones that get 8 S6 attacks.

Vs a vehicle, a Tactical squad on the charge will have 9 S6 attacks - because of Krak Grenades and, assuming they are equipped with a Power-Fist, 3 additional S 8 attacks at I 1.

Yea, I realized that, and I don't see how that makes the shining spears...less good? Eldar can't buy marines in their army anyway. Marines are good at blowing up tanks, we know, and since Shining Spears hit just as hard, they must be too.

But the Spears can hit any unit they want with all those attacks, where as the marines can only hit tanks, otherwise they are swingin' their regular S4.

And Sanctjud, if you have a min sized unit of 3, it's not a very large investment and so you don't necessarily have to worry about supporting them. You send them off after something, taking the long way around if you want, and blow it up, and then keep on kicking. Plus their addition 6" Jetbike Assault move can be very handy.

3 Spears are 105 points.
I don't call that cheap for essentially 3 MEQs on a suicide mission with not very reliable weapons.

Their speed and Jetbike move is cool, but if you are charging you are not using the Assault Move.
If you are out of range and using the Assault Move, something has gone horribly wrong already.
You can't assault move after turboboosting.

So... just because they can assault move doesn't mean it's very useful for them.
If you had a Shuriken Cannon, then Move shoot Move is good, but this ranged option is highly questionable as well.

Hitting vehicles is very different from regular WS. Hitting stuff on 6's sucks for them.
Hitting Auto-stuff is great, but they are unlikely to get there alive. While the normal 4+ is at times worse.

Reading this thread, I was a bit doubtful about their uses at first. Whilst I haven't been lucky/unlucky enough to use them myself, I do see a few interesting points I thought I'd summarise/share.

1) Using the squad Reecius mentioned, a minimum squad w/exarch w/star lance costs 132pts, the number of pens you will get against an AV target (counting the whole 132pt squad):

Shooting
AV10: 1 pen
AV11: 0.64 pen
AV12+: 0.28 pen

Assault (at combat speed; anything more and you would be lucky to get 1 pen, and if its auto hit then just double these numbers)
AV10: 1.67 pen
AV11: 1.08 pen
AV12+: 0.5 pen

As you can see, undeniably, FD's can do better against tanks. However, FD's don't have nearly as much maneuverability, survivability and utility as the SS's, who have more speed, toughness, better save and can cover ground faster, not to mention the extra 6" jetbike move they get; at the same time though, it costs almost 50% more than an optimal (6-man) FD squad.

2) Whilst they don't have great chances of destroying a vehicle outright, they would still be a great harassment unit. With their speed, they can dart around the board to where they are needed. But with just 1 W each, the squad is incredibly fragile, and if they get charged by anything stronger than a guardsmen squad, they will probably die.

3) I agree about taking more to maximise their use. Get 3 of them and the enemy might have a bit more trouble then, and it's not like there is much competition for the fast attack slot (although I do personally like warp spiders... but thats just me). That would be a bit of a point sink though, and all they seem to be is a harassment unit and so you will have to use your remaining points well to utilise them properly.

4) Where they really seem to shine is against heavy infantry; high str/I power weapons will do well against most heavy infantry, and hopefully you will either destroy the squad, or at least take more points than you lose. Keep in mind though, that regardless of whether you win or lose the assault, the squad will likely get wiped next turn without strong support; either in the following assault phase, when they have lost their special attacks, or in a hail of enemy gunfire.

I wouldn't mind giving them a test run, but (imo) I think you're better off getting the cheaper, more specialised units which are better at their individual role. But I do see how they could be useful.

At some point, the difference between foot and mechanized eldar gets discussed, right?

In a fully mech list, I think Spears become a soft target for things like heavy bolters that can't scratch the serpents. In a foot eldar list, however, shots at the spears are shots not sent at guardians, avatar, etc.

But the type of weaponry used on Spears are not exactly the same that are often better used on Guardians and the Avatar...heck, there is an operational range difference.

If they go ahead, it doesn't matter what weapons there are shooting at them, they will most likely not have range on anything else.

If they are (better) held as a counter-attack unit, then the oppurtunity cost is that 105 is not contributing for most of the game.

@Polonius
Good point man, I didn't even think to mention that.

I play my (now somewhat) notorious footdar and as such the SS's are a target that gets ignored.

In a fully mech list they are the obvious choice for all the guns that can't hurt the tanks.

@Bavis
Yes is it is a 5/18 chance to pen, but it is also a 36% chance of scoring a glance, which shouldn't be ignored. Stopping a unit from shooting can be game changing. If you an immobilize a tank you auto hit it in close combat in the ensuing assault which means that is a dead tank in almost all cases.

At any rate, this is a topic that players will have to decide on for themselves.

But, I say give it a whirl, if even in proxy, but don't take just one unit of them, take two or three. As with everything in this game redundancy makes the all of the units so much better.

Yes they may have to hit on 6's which sucks, but they also ignore smoke in HtH which Dragons can't get around with shooting, which is another factor to consider.

Bum rush the other guy with three serpents with dragons and three units of SS's and you are ensured of killing some tanks on turn two.

I think that as noted SS are best at killing MEQ units and are very good at clearing an objective towards the end game. They are okay versus lightly armored vehicles so you can get some additional use out of them by tank hunting. A squad with an exarch (star lance) and an attached Autarch (laser lance) can destroy a full tactical squad of Marines on the charge. I fear them as a Space Marine player but not so much as a daemon player. So in a tournament environment if you pull one or more MEQ armies then they payback is there. They are definitely not a point & click unit so I can understand why people are hesistant to use them.

G

I use spears quite often, Saber has made all the best points.

They hit hard with an autarch, less without but need support either way. Boosting the first turn with an eldrad fortune can help them survive enemies that are good at shooting.

You can with draw after the first turn of combat but you also need a serpent or a couple fast moving vypers to get right behind the combat so the have something to "jump escape" behind thus avoiding the enemies charge next turn.

They also help tarpit units like fortuned avengers with defend, strike, withdraw and move on to the next combat, they should swing the combat in favor for the avengers.

Best use I've found is just as a mop up unit, only charge weakened enemy squads that you beat up with shooting and spears will reliably clean them off, do not charge a nice new tactical squad, you may kill 4 or five if you roll average but it the sarge kills a couple of you in return you didn't really do anything, just avoid stuff like that.

I could see a squad of 5 floating behind a screening squad of harlies, both charging together should kill pretty much anything, especially if eldrad is adding his buffs.

I use them most against Chaos, they have little expensive units that Spears can kill to get their points back.... my 2 cents, if I didn't love my converted models and love the fluff behind the unit I'd never bring them, they are overpriced and not all that points effective but they are challenging to use and thats another perk for me, I'd rather have to think than just lay down a seer council and fly forward, just me though.

Reecius wrote:@Wrexasaur
I didn't mean to sound condescending either bro, I just lose my patience with internet debates super fast these days. They degenerate into a contest of will as opposed to a back and forth discussion. You a free to hold what ever opinion you choose.

I addressed each point you brought up, I take no offense to you doing the same.

Reecius wrote: Yes they may have to hit on 6's which sucks, but they also ignore smoke in HtH which Dragons can't get around with shooting, which is another factor to consider.

I consider FDs ability to drop a second round of meltas, if at all possible, to be one of their greatest skills. They can drop 2 melta hits/turn, given the right circumstances. Actually being able to use them in that way, is an entirely different story.

Bum rush the other guy with three serpents with dragons and three units of SS's and you are ensured of killing some tanks on turn two.

That sounds like a pretty decent combo, overall. Even though I agree that throwing a couple of SS squads into a footslogging list, may be the best option for them; FD and SS compliment each other quite well. If for some crazy reason, your FD cant open a transport, having a few extra shots waiting around, is not at all a bad thing. The optimal use would be for the FD to open transports, and the minimal squads of SS to attack the units inside. At a cost of 132 points for 3 with an Exarch, they aren't exactly a terrible choice on their own. Having FD to perform AT, while leaving the SS to tackle their preferred units, is basically the best of both worlds.

There are a lot of logistical issues, considering how complicated it would be to make use of both FD and SS in the same turn. The SS squad will need to be in assault range, before any shots from the FD are fired. Having at least two squads of FD in WS, along with 2 squads of SS, will give you some room for error. Even if the SS are in assault range of a LR, that in no way suggests that they would be in assault range of the units inside, once the LR itself is destroyed. If you don't manage to actually make the tank explode, that will be no less than death sentence for your SS squads, unless you have a very complicated plan to pull them back defensively. A squad of 3 models at a cost of 132 points, is not cheap, and it is most definitely vulnerable, especially when considering how piss-poor they become when being assaulted themselves.

YMMV, but I am not convinced of their overall usefulness.

A single TL shuriken cannon, on a WS, is a much cheaper (ten times cheaper or more, depending on how you factor the cost of the tank itself) method of delivering those extra S6 shots. It has a 24 inch range, and is actually more accurate than a BS4 lance shot. In my mind, if your SS are doing nothing but shooting, you are much better off, simply investing in shuriken cannons. You can get 6 shots on a WS (minus the problem of only being able to move 6" and fire all guns), for only 20 points. That is a drastically more efficient method of fielding S6 ranged weaponry.

After a bit of thought, having a new SS Exarch power, that would enable the squad to assault up to 12", could be a perfect fix for them. You could keep their cost the same, and cost the power appropriately. That would make them such a fun unit...

Sanctjud wrote:But the type of weaponry used on Spears are not exactly the same that are often better used on Guardians and the Avatar...heck, there is an operational range difference.

In a mech army, small arms fire is worthless because it can't hurt the tanks, so the enemy's infantry waste their shooting phase with the exception of their heavy weapons. For some armies, this additional firepower can be part of their plan, and so they are weakened slightly.

However, slap a non-mech unit in there (one with "Toughness" stat), and suddenly all those lasguns/boltguns,etc have something they can actually shoot at and hurt. I run into the same problem with my Khorne-zilla army when I debate on whether to take oblits. The oblits are the only things showing on the board that are vulnerable to small arms, so they will suck all the small arms fire of the opponent. This is the argument against using Shining Spears in a fully mech army (although the same can be said for regular guardian jetbikes as well.)

In an infantry army, all the models are vulnerable to small arms, so the Shining Spears won't get singled out as much, even though they are still good targets. That's what Polonius was trying to say.

Wrexasaur wrote:After a bit of thought, having a new SS Exarch power, that would enable the squad to assault up to 12", could be a perfect fix for them. You could keep their cost the same, and cost the power appropriately. That would make them such a fun unit...

I have been thinking 12" charge is just what they need, if that was just tacked onto the withdraw power it might be worth 25 points. Keep them in what I see as their theme as the ultimate hit and run specialists.

The simple turn shining spears seem almost built to do is to shoot open a rhino, assault the contents, then hit and run into cover to escape. The problem is that with 6" assault range they often can't assault the contents of a lightly armored transport they shoot open.

Str6 lance in low numbers is a cruel joke as well. That might need to be str 7 or something.

It is remarkable how similar a jetbike+lance+mandiblaster+fusion gun autarch is to an entire small spear squad. The Autarch has a slightly better statline, a 4++, assault grenades and his reserves bonus while the spear squad gets 1.5-2 str 8 hits in assault depending on the target and can pay through the nose for withdraw. If you give the spears star lance and skilled rider but not withdraw to make them as similar as possible the spears are 142 points to the autarch's 140.

Using the squad Reecius mentioned, a minimum squad w/exarch w/star lance costs 132pts, the number of pens you will get against an AV target (counting the whole 132pt squad):

A smart enemy will see them coming and will take measures when they come close enough.
Its not working, at least not vs. me.

When you guys figure out how to make this unit actually work efficiently in the game...lemme know.

Then we can all work on how to make Sisters Repentia good.

They are good...to look at.

I've used a max squad before for kicks...I went up against a 6 Dread SMurf list...

Scared the nuts and bolts out of the dreads.

Though, they still all died before hitting combat :-(

I used to run Spears/Autarch...then I tried the Council...haven't looked back since...

Some one was recently trying to say that only the Jetseer council, Aurarch, and Guarfian Jetbikes could JSJ.

They were saying that because the Shining Spears unit description says Jetbikes while the others have the discription of Eldar Jetbikes that the SS do not get to JSJ.

Is this true?

How about this, I'll bust my Eldar out and use three squads of them in a bat rep and post the results up, win lose or draw.

I'll play my buddies tough mech IG, too, which is the toughest army for Eldar to take on in most cases.

I have one squad of 4 SS inc exarch and with attached Autarch. After 4 or 5 games with them I gave up as they were always blasted apart before they got near the enemy lines even with fortune on them before their approach to the enemy.

I would say that if you can cover them from enemy fire with solid cover denying the enemy LOS then it would be better however the tables I play on, that type of cover is sparse for the footprint of 5 jetbikes.

I can see the benefits from them however it takes a more skilled player than me to get the best from them.

I'm another player that would like to see them get a slight buff in the new codex, cause I'd love to use mines.

cosmid wrote:

Wrexasaur wrote:After a bit of thought, having a new SS Exarch power, that would enable the squad to assault up to 12", could be a perfect fix for them. You could keep their cost the same, and cost the power appropriately. That would make them such a fun unit...

I have been thinking 12" charge is just what they need, if that was just tacked onto the withdraw power it might be worth 25 points. Keep them in what I see as their theme as the ultimate hit and run specialists.

The simple turn shining spears seem almost built to do is to shoot open a rhino, assault the contents, then hit and run into cover to escape. The problem is that with 6" assault range they often can't assault the contents of a lightly armored transport they shoot open.

They cost enough to perform in the way that you described, and it would not be entirely unreasonable to buff Withdraw. 25 points is a lot, but gaining both hit and run, as well as a 12" assault move, seems like the best deal I have ever heard of. Hit and run is nice, but the bonus it gives the squad is not at all worth the cost of an Exarch with Skilled rider. Tweaking and adding Exarch powers is one of the clearest ways to go about updating the Eldar codex.

To make sure people get the point here, a fully decked SS Exarch... cost 112 points.
Far beyond what I would consider reasonable, for a character that can only buff 4 SS, and 2 HQ if you are feeling crazy.

Str6 lance in low numbers is a cruel joke as well. That might need to be str 7 or something.

Your probably right on that one, simply because it will make their shooting attack, strong enough to be an asset in itself. It will give them a bit more potency against MCs, and transports, along with the ability to glance AV13... which is probably not worth trying.

It is remarkable how similar a jetbike+lance+mandiblaster+fusion gun autarch is to an entire small spear squad. The Autarch has a slightly better statline, a 4++, assault grenades and his reserves bonus while the spear squad gets 1.5-2 str 8 hits in assault depending on the target and can pay through the nose for withdraw. If you give the spears star lance and skilled rider but not withdraw to make them as similar as possible the spears are 142 points to the autarch's 140.

The real kicker is that the Autarch, with his haywire grenades and melta gun, is the only way the squad can do anything substantial to a LR. That melta, is the only way that the squad is going to even have a chance of transport hunting effectively. My favorite way to run the Autarch, is with a WJJ/Melta, along with a squad of Warp spiders. They can't do much in assault against most units, but as they are not likely to get into assault anyway, they are excellent jump-shoot-jump transport hunters.

I consider the Autarch to be one of the weakest HQ in the game. Funny how all of that changes when I talk about Yriel... he's a beast.

Str 7 lance would actually be able to pen AV12-14.

That's why the lance rule is a joke on str 6 weapons, it means that you can only glance AV12-14.

willydstyle wrote:Str 7 lance would actually be able to pen AV12-14.

That's why the lance rule is a joke on str 6 weapons, it means that you can only glance AV12-14.

The SS can hardly benefit from str 6 lance weapons.
Charging a LR with an SS squad can be suicide. It needs an Exarch with str 8 lance.

willydstyle wrote:Str 7 lance would actually be able to pen AV12-14.

I made a mistake in my last post, you're right.

A S9 star lance for the Exarch, along with access to a S8 lance for the Autarch, would be absolutely awesome.

That's why the lance rule is a joke on str 6 weapons, it means that you can only glance AV12-14.

Perhaps they should be rending vs. vehicles... I dunno. S7 seems like it would make them much more useful against AV in general.

wuestenfux wrote:Charging a LR with an SS squad can be suicide. It needs an Exarch with str 8 lance.

And none of them can overwhelm being forced to hit on 6's much of the time. In other words, it's pretty much always suicide for them, as their rules are written now.

Well, since I started this thread, it is time for me to jump back in here.
As far as the SS going into a mech army or a foot army, my thought is neither.

I was planning an army built around dominating the movement phase. (read more on my blog here: http://blackmoors40k.blogspot.com/ )

That means that all of the troops will be jetbikes. Since jetbikes lack a lot of punch, I need to add something to the army so they can kill something. I was debating between Shining Spears and a Seer Council. The SS do better against elite infantry, and the Seers do better against hordes. The downside is that they both need a babysitter. The Seers need a Farseer and the SS need an Autarch.

Since I was going to run 2 falcons with Harlequins I need Eldrad for 2 fortunes for the Falcons, and then for the Harlies when they disembark. They reason why I do not want to run 2 Farseers is because I need the Autarch for when I go second. A lot of my strategy relies on me starting my whole army in reserve, so I need the +1 to the dice roll.

So that means Shining Spears. I thought I would give them a try with throwing in the Autarch and have them screened by a lot of Jetbikes. I think they will be turbo busting a lot so they should be pretty durable and they do have a good assault range.

I am thinking about ways I can use them in with the Guardian Jetbikes. Like doing combination assaults, and if they can't kill what ever they charge in one turn, then the SS withdraw leaving the Guardian Jetbikes stuck in the assault. Then in my next turn charge again. Or I can have Guardian Jetbikes lined up behind the assault, and then withdraw past them so they can't be assaulted or get a 4+ cover save from shooting.

It woukd be interesting to see you design a list not using Eldrad. I think this type of army is a tall order but if anyone can pull it off it's you for sure. Good luck with it.

G

The problem is that the army would be very small and therefore would need to be very durable.

Without Eldrad to protect the very small army I would worry about it's durability. One Farseer is not enough to make it happen. The codex is just to old, and is wheezing along with units that are horribly over costed (see the debate above about 35 point shining spears with a 100+ point exarch that struggle to kill anything without an Autarch).