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I understand the idea of serfs in SM chapters being slaves, but I'm not sure a servitor can be classed as a slave. Is a servitor truly alive?

There are many recorded cases of Inquisitors having servitors available, but slaves or serfs? I'm can't recall.

the fact they can develop personality quirks and be portals for daemonic infestations suggests that the body and mind is at least functioning on an animal level.

Ah yes, that reminds me. Those used as Deamonhosts, they certainly aren't willing (or maybe their family is paid I don't know) and then the Deamonhost is a slave to the Inquisitors wills. A very powerful inhuman slave, but a slave all the same. Does that count?

For all purposes regarding the status of the Daemonhost, it's the daemon that's the slave. The human him/herself is nothing more than a vessel at that point, and might as well be considered dead.

Again, "might as well be considered dead" is not the same thing as death. You're dealing in a metaphorical murder but a factual slavery. Plus, it isn't as if no one has ever survived daemonic possession.

I meant to say that there is a slave involved at both ends.

1) The actual person (psyker or not) who is captured, bought or otherwise forced into submitting to the ritual.

2) The deamon istelf which is a slave to the Inquisitors will.

I think the issue is getting a little muddy with personal feelings on real slavery.

Most Servitors are members of a work force that have suffered a mortal or debilitating injury and are made servitors to continue their service. Some are criminals that have been lobotomized and some as stated before are in fact dead.

If that as slavery is a matter of opinion. Indentured service sounds more like it to be honest though some may argue that it's the same thing.

Humiliation and degradation have nothing to do with slavery though a slave may indeed feel humiliated or degraded (some even get a kick out of it ).

Slavery is merely forced service. We the normal working people can be called slaves to an extent as we live by a form of wage slavery. Forced to work for money and pay taxes in order to live.

Slavery is premised on degredation. It is treating a person as if they were not a person (subject) at all but rather a thing (object). Servitors are a science fiction depiction of the reality of slavery, illustrating this principle in a literal sense. Why a person is made into a slave (e.g., as a result of some disability through accident, etc.) is not at all material to their status as a slave.

Grey Templar wrote:the fact they can develop personality quirks and be portals for daemonic infestations suggests that the body and mind is at least functioning on an animal level.

well you have to remember that vehicles can become demonicly infested.

Anything can become daemonically infested, including inanimate objects (vehicles may have a bit of sentience in the 40k universe).

true, but a, at one time, sentient living thing has a greater chance of it(especially if it was just exposed to the warp)

Manchu wrote:Slavery is premised on degredation. It is treating a person as if they were not a person (subject) at all but rather a thing (object). Servitors are a science fiction depiction of the reality of slavery, illustrating this principle in a literal sense. Why a person is made into a slave (e.g., as a result of some disability through accident, etc.) is not at all material to their status as a slave.

So it is the objectification of a person by another that makes them a slave? In that case, Inquisitors certainly don't keep slaves. They see every single human being out there as a unique individual, and often kill them for it or at least don't care much for that anyway. Interestingly, does this make all Tech Priests slaves since they look at themselves as cogs in The Great Machine?

Grey Templar wrote:true, but a, at one time, sentient living thing has a greater chance of it(especially if it was just exposed to the warp)

Where is this stated in fluff? Deamon weapons, vehichles ect occur ofen enough in the realm of 40k and I can't see anything saying that these are harder than to posses that a sentient being. Psykers are susceptible to possiesion to their powers, which draw deamons like bright flickers in the warp, not thier sentience.

I am sure the inquisition do use slaves. If an Inquisitor needs 100 people for manual labour but doesn't have time to wait for the inquisition to sent reinforcements he is going to go down to the planet and find someone. They might not be physically in chains but they know if they refuse they will be killed.

It may seem like they are volunteering, but they are doing it out of fear of death or torture. Effectively the Inquisition is just saying work for us or we will kill you, which seems very much like slavery. They just call it service to the emperor.

I would also say arco flagallents are slaves as no one is going to volunteer for that.

Slavery is about legally owning another person. Just objectifying a person doesn't mean that person is a slave. But the degredation of being objectified and so dehumanized is what makes slavery wrong IRL.

Does ultimate authority (inquisitorial seal) mean that those beneath them are slaves? An inquisitor has legal rights to command and control everyone they meet as they see fit, but is that actually owning someone?

@4M2A: I think Arco-Flagellants are undergoing a 'redemption process' by this cruel method. Whether they undergoe this redemption willingly or are forced into it is another matter.

Arco-Flagellation is not an Inquisitorial punishment. It is an Ecclesiarchal one. An Inquisitor, of course, can probably easily convince an Ecclesiarchal official to have someone go through it, but it is the Church that does it nonetheless, not the Inquisition.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Where is this stated in fluff? Deamon weapons, vehichles ect occur ofen enough in the realm of 40k and I can't see anything saying that these are harder than to posses that a sentient being. Psykers are susceptible to possiesion to their powers, which draw deamons like bright flickers in the warp, not thier sentience.

While I have no direct citation, IIRC, all living beings have a reflection in the warp that is comparable to a small flame. Psykers are comparable to a raging inferno, making them much more attractive for daemons, but all living beings that aren't blanks have some level of this reflection in the warp.

So as stated, the imperium as a government structure runs predominantly on slavery, and that which isn't slavery is based on serfdom, and that which isn't based on serfdom is based on feudal obligation. As best I can tell, the imperium doesn't tend to pay all that many people because it's tax and revenue system is a joke at best. I mean, there's a reason why planets are forced to pay their tithes in imperial guardsmen and battle tanks rather than in Thrones, which are turned around to buy those things.

As for the =I= specifically, I seem to recall from the Dark Heresy manual that once you became an inquisitorial retainer, that was it. There was no way out, or retirement, or anything - the inquisitor worked you until you died, which was usually not long in the coming. That, or you could be the 1 in a million who survives long enough to become an inquisitor, but even then I think your level of obligation goes UP, not away.

Plus, the inquisition has a carte blanche to do anything and everything it wants. If you were part of an organization that had huge demands placed on you without lots of funding, wouldn't you pretty much immediately resort to slavery to get anything done?

@Ailaros: Slavery in what sense? Certainly citizens are paid, albeit meagerly, for the work they carry out in factories or working on farms. If they weren't then the Imperium would certainly cease to function as everyone would quite simply starve. And there is an element of choice in joining regiments, workers are said to clamour for posistions for adventure, honour, pay or simply to escape their current lifestyle, which certainly isn't idylic. Worlds give tithes of regiments and munitions rather than bare money becuase:

1) That's the kind of militaristic grimdark setting that the Imperium is based upon, they do need those tithes.

2) The Imperiums greatest strength is manpower, the Tyranids cannot be stopped by throwing money at them (although this has been tried with orks with some sucess).

3) It's grimdark.

The Imperium is certianly an oppressive regime that dominates it's controlled territory ferociously, but I don't think calling it a slave kingdom is entirely accurate.

@Melissia: Yet I can recall no fluff that specifically states that a servitor is easier to possess than a weapon or vehichle.

I haven't read it either. I would suppose that they're no more difficult or easier to possess or influence than an animal would be.

So...how hard is an animal to posses when compared to a human or inatimate object? (And are Deamon Weapons/Vehichles specifically designed to hold them, or is the possession forced upon it?)

No clue how hard in comparison, only that it's harder. Animals don't quite have the mental capability for the same emotions sentient beings do, and therefor they'd not have quite as strong a resonance in the warp.

Kinda like Tau, though in their case there may be a different reason.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Certainly citizens are paid, albeit meagerly, for the work they carry out in factories or working on farms. If they weren't then the Imperium would certainly cease to function as everyone would quite simply starve.

... or all the farmers are serfs who are obliged to work the fields on pain of death. There are lots of ways to get someone to work in a factory or a farm, and money is just one way.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And there is an element of choice in joining regiments, workers are said to clamour for posistions for adventure, honour, pay or simply to escape their current lifestyle, which certainly isn't idylic.

Perhaps because they're slaves, or near-slaves? At least in the army you get slavery and glory rather than slavery and squalor.

Emperors Faithful wrote: Worlds give tithes of regiments and munitions rather than bare money becuase:

Yeah, yeah, grimdark. There are other reasons to use slavery, though. For example, if there was a monetary system that was standard across the entire imperium (required if the imperium taxes its subjects), then that means there would have to be things such as a central bank and a central mint. The imperium can't even operate a centralized standing army, what makes you think they can operate a centralized little-shiney-coin-distribution-and-taxation system? The vastness of time and space render taxation in the imperium ludicrous. Therefore, you need to have some other way to command labor than through money. Slavery and feudal obligation are not only also grimdark, but they also make sense for a world without standardized money (like, say, medieval earth, where they also had serfs due to coinage problems).

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Imperium is certianly an oppressive regime that dominates it's controlled territory ferociously, but I don't think calling it a slave kingdom is entirely accurate.

Well, it's not about oppression and domination and controlling territory (although those things don't hurt). Slavery and serfdom are economic systems first and foremost. Various bits of fluff here and there talk about people getting paid for stuff, but there is no mention of a single, centralized, unifying currency system over the entire imperium. Without that, you have to get creative...

Ailaros wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:Certainly citizens are paid, albeit meagerly, for the work they carry out in factories or working on farms. If they weren't then the Imperium would certainly cease to function as everyone would quite simply starve.

... or all the farmers are serfs who are obliged to work the fields on pain of death. There are lots of ways to get someone to work in a factory or a farm, and money is just one way.

True dat. Although this would differ from planet to planet. (And serfdom would have to be agreed as a definition of slavery.

Emperors Faithful wrote:And there is an element of choice in joining regiments, workers are said to clamour for posistions for adventure, honour, pay or simply to escape their current lifestyle, which certainly isn't idylic.

Perhaps because they're slaves, or near-slaves? At least in the army you get slavery and glory rather than slavery and squalor.

So now military duty is a form of slavery? Whatever happened to good old honour, courage, fighting spirit and all that?

Emperors Faithful wrote: Worlds give tithes of regiments and munitions rather than bare money becuase:

Yeah, yeah, grimdark. There are other reasons to use slavery, though. For example, if there was a monetary system that was standard across the entire imperium (required if the imperium taxes its subjects), then that means there would have to be things such as a central bank and a central mint. The imperium can't even operate a centralized standing army, what makes you think they can operate a centralized little-shiney-coin-distribution-and-taxation system? The vastness of time and space render taxation in the imperium ludicrous. Therefore, you need to have some other way to command labor than through money. Slavery and feudal obligation are not only also grimdark, but they also make sense for a world without standardized money (like, say, medieval earth, where they also had serfs due to coinage problems).

The system you have proposed is utterly impossible. The very idea of proposing a common currency just as valid on a Feudal World or Hive World throughout the Imperium is completely ludicrous, thus making taxing said wealth just as silly.

Emperors Faithful wrote:The Imperium is certianly an oppressive regime that dominates it's controlled territory ferociously, but I don't think calling it a slave kingdom is entirely accurate.

Well, it's not about oppression and domination and controlling territory (although those things don't hurt). Slavery and serfdom are economic systems first and foremost. Various bits of fluff here and there talk about people getting paid for stuff, but there is no mention of a single, centralized, unifying currency system over the entire imperium. Without that, you have to get creative...

Like I said, the Imperium itself doesn't seem to condone or condemn slavery on Imperial planets, or at least there is no credible fluff pointing either way. This is proably due to the fact that the Imperium leaves the running of planets entirely to those on it. The Imperium doesn't look into the business of their holdings unless tithes are not kept to, at which point they intervene. I think we can certainly agree that there is little to no possibility of any form of centralized currency. The Imperium deals in fighting men, not merchants.


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All of which does not help at all in discussing whether or not inquisitors are partial to slaves.

There is a standard form of currencey: Imperials or Thrones.

the Throne is the most commonly used currency and formes the standard of planetary Tithes.


Planets do indeed pay tithes in currency form. they do however have the option of paying in Men and Matierial instead of Cash. This is so planets that are cash poor can still pay their tithes. a Feudal world might not be able to pay cash amount, but could raise men for a Regiment every 30 Years or so.

the Taxation system the IoM has in place is a very effective one. it was the same one used in the Middle ages. You payed cash OR an equilivant amount in good and/or services.


The Benifit to this is obvious. you will have a mixture of actual cash and goods coming in as Taxes. you will eliminate the middle man by accepting the goods by not having to actually go the extra mile to buy them with money and you also have some cash to spend on what doesn't come in as a finished product.


I think the Administratum has a sstem where it will set the Tithe grade and the planet is given a reccomendation on how it should pay its Tithe.

Ben Counter's Grey Knights seemed to imply that the Ordo Malleus uses lobotomized humans (removing all their brain functions not directly related to their job so they can't be corrupted) to do most of the organization's grunt work.

I suppose it's possible that they all were volunteers. But somehow that seems unlikely.

Grey Templar wrote:the Throne is the most commonly used currency and formes the standard of planetary Tithes.


Planets do indeed pay tithes in currency form. they do however have the option of paying in Men and Matierial instead of Cash. This is so planets that are cash poor can still pay their tithes. a Feudal world might not be able to pay cash amount, but could raise men for a Regiment every 30 Years or so.

the Taxation system the IoM has in place is a very effective one. it was the same one used in the Middle ages. You payed cash OR an equilivant amount in good and/or services.


The Benifit to this is obvious. you will have a mixture of actual cash and goods coming in as Taxes. you will eliminate the middle man by accepting the goods by not having to actually go the extra mile to buy them with money and you also have some cash to spend on what doesn't come in as a finished product.


I think the Administratum has a sstem where it will set the Tithe grade and the planet is given a reccomendation on how it should pay its Tithe.

This is fascinating. I always assumed that Thrones were only viable on wealthier Hive Worlds and off world trade ports. I simply assumed that poorer Imperial worlds simply wouldn't have acess to that kind of coinage. In this case, the Administratum is actually good for something.

Emperors Faithful wrote:

Grey Templar wrote:the Throne is the most commonly used currency and formes the standard of planetary Tithes.


Planets do indeed pay tithes in currency form. they do however have the option of paying in Men and Matierial instead of Cash. This is so planets that are cash poor can still pay their tithes. a Feudal world might not be able to pay cash amount, but could raise men for a Regiment every 30 Years or so.

the Taxation system the IoM has in place is a very effective one. it was the same one used in the Middle ages. You payed cash OR an equilivant amount in good and/or services.


The Benifit to this is obvious. you will have a mixture of actual cash and goods coming in as Taxes. you will eliminate the middle man by accepting the goods by not having to actually go the extra mile to buy them with money and you also have some cash to spend on what doesn't come in as a finished product.


I think the Administratum has a sstem where it will set the Tithe grade and the planet is given a reccomendation on how it should pay its Tithe.

This is fascinating. I always assumed that Thrones were only viable on wealthier Hive Worlds and off world trade ports. I simply assumed that poorer Imperial worlds simply wouldn't have acess to that kind of coinage. In this case, the Administratum is actually good for something.

Planets may have their own form of currency to I suppose but they'll always take Thrones. They're like US dollars I suppose. Exception is mutant ghettos: They are forbiddon to touch the Emperor's holy money!

Thrones were a convenient mechanism for a role-playing game, but is there any other fluff that asserts that the imperium has a standardized currency? I agree with Emperor's Faithful that maintaining a centralized currency system is insane, given how the rest of the imperium works.

The thing to remember is that money is nothing more than a medium to command labor. There are several ways to do this that don't require a central bank.

Furthermore, can you REALLY imagine an imperial governor saying "well, we WOULD have gotten our leman order shipped out, but we're still waiting for our back pay from the emperor" or an imperial guardsman telling a commissar "I WOULD charge, but I haven't been paid this week".

Few things are as disruptive to trade as forcing everyone onto a monetary system and then providing an insufficient amount of the currency. The Imperium would have collapsed long ago if it relied on reliable, orderly taxation and payment. I mean, few states NOW can collect taxes right and pay their bills on time...

the inquisition has the authority to demand any aid to complete their task such as an entire imperial guard regiment to a space marine company without question so yes inquisitors do practice slavery through conscription