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Well, if your going to argue that, I will argue that the Reserves SPECIAL RULE means you can never come on as normal.

That is, of course, a moronic view to take.

You seems to be confusing "coming in from reserves as normal" with "coming in from normal reserves".

Ok Gwar, how's this:

A unit moves and tries to fire a heavy weapon, it can't. A different unit has an additional qualifier that it has relentless, it can now move and fire a heavy weapon. It's not firing that weapon "as normal."

A unit arrives from reserve, it has to come in from the board edge. A different unit has an additional qualifier that it may arrive via deep strike. It is not arriving from reserves "as normal."

Shrike325 wrote:Ok Gwar, how's this:

A unit moves and tries to fire a heavy weapon, it can't. A different unit has an additional qualifier that it has relentless, it can now move and fire a heavy weapon. It's not firing that weapon "as normal."

A unit arrives from reserve, it has to come in from the board edge. A different unit has an additional qualifier that it may arrive via deep strike. It is not arriving from reserves "as normal."

And I would say that "arriving from normal reserves" is not what the Trygon's Tunnel is asking for, but for some reason people keep ignoring that.

Ok, I get what you're saying now. I bow to your knowledge, sir, and agree with your point of view.

Shrike325 wrote:Ok, I get what you're saying now. I bow to your knowledge, sir, and agree with your point of view.

Would it surprise you that I can no longer tell if this is genuine agreement or delicious sarcasm?

Well, it is the internet... so you can never tell.

However, it is genuine agreement

Initially I was in the camp that they could not use the tunnel, but after reading this thread and going back over, I think i will have to agree with GWAR! The special rule for the tunnel would allow outflankers and such to use the tunnel. The key is how they arrive as normal. It is not saying that they must arrive as a normal reserve, but instead they can arrive instead of how they normally arrive.

If I declare a unit of genestealers to outflank, for that game, they will normally arrive via outflank. The special rule of the Trygon is overriding how they "normally" arrive. Not overriding "Normal reserves."

This interpretation allows units that have been declared as deploying via Mycetic Spores to enter play through a Trygon tunnel.

Just saying.

Klawz wrote:Sorry Forkbanger, but no one argues with Gwar!.

In the interests of avoiding future issues, I would recommend avoiding making comments like this in the future. An argument should be assessed on the basis of the actual argument, not on who is making it.

forkbanger wrote:This interpretation allows units that have been declared as deploying via Mycetic Spores to enter play through a Trygon tunnel.

Just saying.

Sorry that was the worng tone there, why would allowing a unit that was going to arrive in a 'transport' now arrive through a different means be so 'wrong' that you feel compelled to 'just say'

forkbanger wrote:This interpretation allows units that have been declared as deploying via Mycetic Spores to enter play through a Trygon tunnel.

Just saying.

Mmm no, at least partially no.
I don't know how can we manage the absolutely original characteristic of MC/Transport of Spods but, even if the Trygon's tunnel will give the possibility to switch one previous depoyment from reserves decision, this wouldn't be possibile for units differents than Infantry.

So, are you telling that, ignoring the Mycetic Spore (one kill point automatically gived to the adversary) the unit that was supposed to be in can instead be deployed via one Tunnel?

Sounds so so..

The spore would still deep strike in just empty.... just like a DP... and the "Transport Spore" side of things is taken care of by the Codex entry on page 54.

forkbanger wrote:It's a Trygon. And to be specific about using it's tunnel - 'Tyranid infantry units that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns may... emerge from it instead of arriving as normal'.

This is all that needs to be said. If the Trygon comes in and creates his tunnel, any infantry units that arrive in a subsequent turn, may choose to arrive via the Trygons tunnel instead of any other method they may otherwise arrive in.

ANY infantry unit not yet on the board because they are still in reserve may use the tunnel. It seems so plain and simple. Doesn't matter what you declared for them, it's a way of altering your tactics.

Normal is a very broad word that can take very many meanings in a very short amount of time. Forkbanger please don't use the definition of normal to justify your argument. Trygon allows you to change the way an infantry unit enters play. It allows you to alter how the unit would normally deploy (ie Ymargl stealers deploying in terrain etc.). This definition is normal from the perspective of the unit in question. It has nothing to do with normal according to the BRB unless that is the normal mode of deploying from reserves FOR THE UNIT IN QUESTION.

Gwar is correct in saying that the Trygon allows you to change the way a unit enters play from reserve by the tunnel special rule.

omgnowaiii wrote:ANY infantry unit not yet on the board because they are still in reserve may use the tunnel. It seems so plain and simple. Doesn't matter what you declared for them, it's a way of altering your tactics.

Have to disagree with this. If you have dormant ymgarl stealers in reserve, their rule states that they must arrive as per the dormant rule. A mycetic spore always enters play using the deepstrike rules. While these are 'norma;' routes of entry for these units, you are still breaking the rule if you bring them in a tunnel. You break no rules by deploying them by their special rules.

As an aside (I'm not even sure if anyone is arguing this), mycetic spores could never arrive with infantry inside anyway, because you can only ever bring one unit through a single tunnel and p90 says spores are a separate unit.

No-one is saying Spods can use the Tunnel.

They Can't, simple as that. Spods ALWAYS Deep Strike, so they cannot use the Tunnel.

forkbanger wrote:This interpretation allows units that have been declared as deploying via Mycetic Spores to enter play through a Trygon tunnel.

I was just pointing out that there are various reasons why I disagree with this stance

Yes, Mycetic Spores cannot use the tunnel. They're a) not Infantry and b) forced to deep strike by their own rules.

The contents of that spore can, apparantly switch from the spore to the tunnel before deployment.

Have to disagree with this. If you have dormant ymgarl stealers in reserve, their rule states that they must arrive as per the dormant rule. A mycetic spore always enters play using the deepstrike rules. While these are 'normal' routes of entry for these units, you are still breaking the rule if you bring them in a tunnel. You break no rules by deploying them by their special rules.

Then nothing can ever come up through the tunnel as you are breaking the rule that states units must arrive via the method that you declared for them at the start of the game.

The spod itself can't come through it because it is an MC not infantry. But Lictors and Ymargl stealers using there special rules would be able to change to using the tunnel under Gwars! interpretation as would the unit that was supposed to arrive in the spod.

FlingitNow wrote:

Have to disagree with this. If you have dormant ymgarl stealers in reserve, their rule states that they must arrive as per the dormant rule. A mycetic spore always enters play using the deepstrike rules. While these are 'normal' routes of entry for these units, you are still breaking the rule if you bring them in a tunnel. You break no rules by deploying them by their special rules.

Then nothing can ever come up through the tunnel as you are breaking the rule that states units must arrive via the method that you declared for them at the start of the game.

The spod itself can't come through it because it is an MC not infantry. But Lictors and Ymargl stealers using there special rules would be able to change to using the tunnel under Gwars! interpretation as would the unit that was supposed to arrive in the spod.

More specific overrides more general.

General rule - Units must deploy via the method you said they would.. ect

Specific - If this particular unit does X, then other units in reserve may arrive using X instead of normal.

Even more Specific - This unit must always Arrive via X.

This is standard for 40k.

@ Toban
I would tell your opponent that the unit is coming in from the table's edge. Utilizing the tunnel is a choice, not a requirement. Once the unit becomes available, you can choose to use the tunnel, if that is what you want to do with that unit.

The rule: pg 50 nid dex (the word ANY was omitted for some reason)

"ANY tyranid infantry units that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns may... emerge from it instead of arriving as normal. If they choose to do so...."

My Interpretation:

Normal means how ever the unit put in reserve was going to arrive from reserve (table edge, OF or DS).

The word normal shouldn't even be under discussion as it doesn't really matter. Normal is relative to the unit.

Stealers are an infantry unit that can outflank.

The rule is clear to me that if you have a wingless infantry unit, you put said unit in reserve, said unit becomes available, no matter how/why said unit is in reserve, you can choose to utilize the tunnel network instead of arriving from reserves as you were normally going to (table edge, OF, DS)

My two cents.

Cheers

After reading all of this the entire argument seems to have been taken far out of proportion. It also seems to have lost its bearing in regards to the original question.