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Hi, some little doubt.

We all know that the usual options to "come in" from reserves are normally 3:
- deep striking
- outflanking
- from our side of the table

In the last Nid's codex we find a 4th possibility by entering from 1 burrowed tunnel (tnx to Trygons or Mawlocks).

Usually we should declare before the first turn, which unit will attempt to DS, which one will outflank (hoping in a good side-choice roll) and what eventually will enter easily from our table edge.

In the 4th case what we should declare?
We can just say that one infantry unit will wait in reserve to "come in" from our edge and, only eventually, pop up from a tunnel during the game?

I'm asking this only because, ie in case of Mawlocks use, we will risk to have many options at the "come in" moment and maybe our adversary will be annoyed by the uncertainty about one or more infantry units.

We should declare it at the beginning? Exactly like all the others options?

I always presumed you have to declare which unit will come in from the Trygon's tunnel, which is what makes it such a pain to use. The odds of the selected unit coming in a turn after the trygon aren't that good.

So, the only way that the trygon tunnel becomes somewhat usable is to not declare which unit is using it and just have an infantry unit that is coming in from your edge come in from the tunnel, but I'm not sure how(if ever) that will be FAQed.

The real problem in fact is to understand what would be mandatory to declare respecting rules and what, eventually, wouldn't be.
Just to really understand all the good and the bad sides of the "tunnels from, come in" option.

yeah, for the time being I pretty much ignore that ability as it is pretty much FUBAR in its current state.

The Trygons tunnel allows you to arrive from it instead of arriving normally. In effect, it replaces the choice you made at the start of the game, (if you choose to use the tunnel).

So, it doesn't matter if you are arriving from your edge, by outflank or by Deep Strike, unless you have a rule forcing a specific deployment (Like the Spods who MUST deep strike), you can choose to bring in a unit via the Trygon instead. You don't have to declare the use of the Trygons Tunnel.

Grabzak Dirtyfighter is incorrect.

Gwar! wrote:The Trygons tunnel allows you to arrive from it instead of arriving normally. In effect, it replaces the choice you made at the start of the game, (if you choose to use the tunnel).

So, it doesn't matter if you are arriving from your edge, by outflank or by Deep Strike, unless you have a rule forcing a specific deployment (Like the Spods who MUST deep strike), you can choose to bring in a unit via the Trygon instead. You don't have to declare the use of the Trygons Tunnel.

Grabzak Dirtyfighter is incorrect.

I'm Maelstrom808 and I support this message.

Gwar! wrote:So, it doesn't matter if you are arriving from your edge, by outflank or by Deep Strike,

Arriving from reserve, p94 wrote:When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unleess it's deep striking or outflanking).

The implication is that arriving from the table edge is 'normal', while deep striking and outflanking are exceptions. Although naturally, it isn't made explicit what the normal method of arrival is. However, given that deep strike and outflank require another special rule in addition to the mission special rule of Reserves, it's hard to consider them normal - every unit may arrive from reserves from the table edge; only some may deep strike or outflank.

forkbanger wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, it doesn't matter if you are arriving from your edge, by outflank or by Deep Strike,

Arriving from reserve, p94 wrote:When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unleess it's deep striking or outflanking).

The implication is that arriving from the table edge is 'normal', while deep striking and outflanking are exceptions. Although naturally, it isn't made explicit what the normal method of arrival is. However, given that deep strike and outflank require another special rule in addition to the mission special rule of Reserves, it's hard to consider them normal - every unit may arrive from reserves from the table edge; only some may deep strike or outflank.

Good reflection.

Thank you all.

forkbanger wrote:

Gwar! wrote:So, it doesn't matter if you are arriving from your edge, by outflank or by Deep Strike,

Arriving from reserve, p94 wrote:When a reserve unit arrives, it must move onto the table from the controlling player's own table edge (unleess it's deep striking or outflanking).

The implication is that arriving from the table edge is 'normal', while deep striking and outflanking are exceptions. Although naturally, it isn't made explicit what the normal method of arrival is. However, given that deep strike and outflank require another special rule in addition to the mission special rule of Reserves, it's hard to consider them normal - every unit may arrive from reserves from the table edge; only some may deep strike or outflank.

Deep Strike and Outflanking are just other means of arriving from reserve. They are as normal as units arriving via Classic Reserves.

The "arrive as normal" doesn't say "arrive by normal reserves". It just says "arrive as normal". A Model that Deep Strikes is arriving as a Deep Striking model normally does. It can, instead, arrive via the Trygon Tunnel, which is instead of it's normal procedure, which is deep striking.

Gwar! wrote:Deep Strike and Outflanking are just other means of arriving from reserve. They are as normal as units arriving via Classic Reserves.

This is untrue.

All units may arrive from reserve, needing no special rules to do so.
Not all units may arrive from reserve via deep strike.
Not all units may arrive from reserve via outflanking.
An additional permission is required to arrive using those methods.

Gwar! wrote:The "arrive as normal" doesn't say "arrive by normal reserves". It just says "arrive as normal". A Model that Deep Strikes is arriving as a Deep Striking model normally does. It can, instead, arrive via the Trygon Tunnel, which is instead of it's normal procedure, which is deep striking.

This is the point where your definition of normal starts becoming self-referential. Deep strike is a normal method of arrival, because a unit has the deep strike special rule. coming on from the table sides is a normal method of arrival, because a unit has the outflanking special rule.

Normal arrival, using only the reserve special rule, is from your own table edge. Deep striking is using another special rule in conjunction with reserves, an abnormal method of arrival. Outflanking is the same - an extra special rule that allows non-standard arrival.

Would you allow Ymgarl Stealers to use a Trygon's tunnel? Their Dormant deployment is 'normal' by your terms. Lictors? Chameleaonic Skin is their 'normal' method of deployment.

Is 'normal' 'normal-for-x', or is 'normal' 'the default in the game rules'?

Defining 'normal' based on special rules becomes problematic - Land Raiders may fire one weapon at Combat Speed, by the rulebook. All (Space Marine) Land Raiders come with PotMS. They can fire one weapon more than normal. A Land Raider can fire two weapons at Combat Speed then. But all Land Raiders have this ability, so that must be their 'normal', right? One weapon more than that 'normal' is three.

forkbanger wrote:Would you allow Ymgarl Stealers to use a Trygon's tunnel? Their Dormant deployment is 'normal' by your terms. Lictors? Chameleaonic Skin is their 'normal' method of deployment.

This is where you start building a Strawman.

Ymgarl Stealers rule states they MUST be deployed in their Terrain if they use their Dormant Rule.

If they use normal Reserves or Outflank, they can arrive via the Trygon tunnel just fine.

The Lictor on the other hand, cannot use the Tunnel because he never arrives from reserves normally (that is, a method described in the rulebook). He instead uses a special rule, which by definition cannot be normal.

Not that it matters, since Lictors show up anywhere.

forkbanger wrote:All (Space Marine) Land Raiders come with PotMS. They can fire one weapon more than normal. A Land Raider can fire two weapons at Combat Speed then. But all Land Raiders have this ability, so that must be their 'normal', right? One weapon more than that 'normal' is three.

No, one more than Normal (as detailed in the rulebook) is two (at combat speed) or one (at Cruising).

Again, a Special Rule, by Definition, cannot be normal.

Gwar! wrote:Ymgarl Stealers rule states they MUST be deployed in their Terrain if they use their Dormant Rule.

Not quite. They must be deployed such that all models are within the selected terrain. That's their 'normal' using Dormant - which a Trygon tunnel would replace.

Gwar! wrote:The Lictor on the other hand, cannot use the Tunnel because he never arrives from reserves normally (that is, a method described in the rulebook). He instead uses a special rule, which by definition cannot be normal.

And Outflanking and Deep Strike? The rulebook states explicitly that thesse are special rules- 'units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rule...' (Outflank, p94), 'Some units' special rules allow them to enter play via...' (Deep Strike, p95).

Chamelaeonic Skin and Dormant are no more special than Scout, Infiltrate or Deep Strike, they are all explicitly 'special rules' and listed as such in unit profiles and rules.

Gwar! wrote:Again, a Special Rule, by Definition, cannot be normal.

And again, what are Scout, Infiltrate, and Deep Strike? They're special rules. And...

Gwar! wrote:Again, a Special Rule, by Definition, cannot be normal.

Oh goddammit. Hot editing action.

Gwar! wrote:No, one more than Normal (as detailed in the rulebook) is two (at combat speed) or one (at Cruising).

So the normal is what is listed in the rulebook, not whatever special rules a model amy have? This is further reinforcing normal reserves as being those that enter form your table edge, bereft of special rules.

Sorry Forkbanger, but no one argues with Gwar!.

Evidence suggests otherwise.

forkbanger wrote:Evidence suggests otherwise.

Correction: No one argues with Gwar! and wins.

Sometime's he's just wrong.

Forkbanger, starting the PotMS argument again to try and force definitions to fit your idea is not very wise. That thread was locked for a reason.

Also, while Deep Strike and Outflank require special rules to deploy using that method. They are standard methods of deployment. Thus in the BRB.

I think Gwar, you should define the word normal as a standard method of deployment to not be confusing.

The Mawlock lets you replace the way you declared you were deploying (standard or normal actually are irrelevant) with using its tunnel instead.

As Gwar pointed out some units are forced to deploy in a specific way and so could not replace that deployment with coming in from the tunnel.

I understood it as anything in reserves could choose to come through the tunnel. As deepstriking and outflanking are all variations/additions to reserves than the criteria to be able to choose instead to come trough the tunnel have been met. Though as Gwar! pointed out the Spod is an exception.

Klawz wrote:

forkbanger wrote:Evidence suggests otherwise.

Correction: No one argues with Gwar! and wins.

Wanna bet......?

Evidence or not I'm quite drunked with all these specification about what is normal and what isn't.. phylosophy never been my talent..

So, returning on the Original Topic let's talk about something concrete.
Can someone please tell me, like we will say something to a child ;D, what should I declare to my adversary about the future "come in" from reserves?

Just to give you a specifical example I usually run 3 broods of Stealer.
We all know that they can outflank, infiltrate, enter in game by my own table edge and finally use (even if it isn't often the best solution..) one tunnel.

Assuming I declare that one brood will outflank and I'll not infiltrate the others 2, should I declare something specifically between my own table edge AND/OR one Tunnel? I run also 3 Trygons all times.

Yay, yet another thread devolves into Gwar Bashing.

How frighteningly unoriginal.

-Leaves before getting hit with the holiday stick... again-

Toban wrote:Assuming I declare that one brood will outflank and I'll not outflank the others 2, should I declare something specifically between my own table edge AND/OR one Tunnel? I run also 3 Trygons all times.

Regardless of the outflanking/deep striking/dormat/whatever argument, you do not have to declare in advance that you will bring a unit into play using the Trygon's tunnel.

When an eligible unit becomes available, you may opt to use the Trygon tunnel.

Use your words to decide with your opponents what is 'eligible'.

Orion_44 wrote:Forkbanger, starting the PotMS argument again to try and force definitions to fit your idea is not very wise.

The PotMS argument is one that encapsulates a self-referential 'normal' - the same as arguing that deep striking is normal because a deep striking unit can do it, or that outflanking is normal because a scout unit can do it. It's a statement that normal is based on individual circumstance, not generic circumstance.

Orion_44 wrote:Also, while Deep Strike and Outflank require special rules to deploy using that method. They are standard methods of deployment. Thus in the BRB.

They are methods of deployment that require a special rule beyond the reserves rule - hence, they are not normal.

Orion_44 wrote:The Mawlock lets you replace the way you declared you were deploying (standard or normal actually are irrelevant) with using its tunnel instead.

It's a Trygon. And to be specific about using it's tunnel - 'Tyranid infantry units that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns may... emerge from it instead of arriving as normal'.

Orion_44 wrote:[As Gwar pointed out some units are forced to deploy in a specific way and so could not replace that deployment with coming in from the tunnel.

Some units are forced to enter play from reserve using special rules, and may have restrictions on their deployment when they do. The contention is that if one set of special rules for arrival from reserve are considered 'normal' (deep strike, outflank), then all sets of special rules for arrival from reserve should likewise be considered 'normal' and replacable with the tunnel entry.

Gwar! wrote:Yay, yet another thread devolves into Gwar Bashing.

Hey, I'm not bashing. Just arguing another interpretation.

Gwar is correct as usual.

Subterranean Assault: Any Tyranid infantry units (excluding those with wings) that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns may attempt to utilise this tunnel network and emerge from it instead of arriving as normal.

As normal meaning, how it would normally arrive, not, arriving from a normal fashion from reserves. If the rule was going to limit which models it would allow to arrive from reserve in this method, then it wouldn't have used the word "Any" at the beginning, and it would have probably included some text about outflanking/deepstriking units at the beginning where it exluded winged models.

My reading of page 94 is that at the start of the game you choose which units are arriving from reserve, not how they will arrive. When they become available, you then state how from the list above. Am I missing something?

Homer

Gwar! wrote:Yay, yet another thread devolves into Gwar Bashing.

How frighteningly unoriginal.

-Leaves before getting hit with the holiday stick... again-

Not bashing, just mentioning that even you (and I) get it wrong sometimes. We've both corrected the other many times, and occasionally disagreed. Sometimes you changed my mind, sometimes I've changed yours, but more often we're both adamant in our stance.

And not disagreeing on this one, BTW.

Homer S wrote:My reading of page 94 is that at the start of the game you choose which units are arriving from reserve, not how they will arrive. When they become available, you then state how from the list above. Am I missing something?

Homer

Definitely missing something, mainly the bit about declaring how they will arrive at the time you place the unit into reserves. Check out the 5th paragraph in the "Preparing Reserves" section on page 94.......................

Homer S wrote:My reading of page 94 is that at the start of the game you choose which units are arriving from reserve, not how they will arrive. When they become available, you then state how from the list above. Am I missing something?

Homer

Me too I'm not so sure about it, I didn't have the BRB, I just have a AOBR little version. Even in Italian language..

Where it's stated that we should declare, before the beginnig of the deployment fase who will do what?

don_mondo wrote:Definitely missing something, mainly the bit about declaring how they will arrive at the time you place the unit into reserves. Check out the 5th paragraph in the "Preparing Reserves" section on page 94.......................

Don-Mondo answered faster than light and I definitely had to by the BRB in the English Version..

Preparing reseves is on p 94 of the English rulebook.

-declare what is in reserve
-declare any independent characters joining units
-declare use of transports
-declare use of deep strike and scout/infiltrate to outflank. 'This decision may not be changed later.'

forkbanger wrote:'This decision may not be changed later.'

Except the Trygons rule is letting you change it.

That's how Special rules tend to work, in case you haven't noticed.

Trygon wrote:'Tyranid infantry units that arrive from reserve in subsequent turns may... emerge from it instead of arriving as normal'.

Gwar! wrote:Again, a Special Rule, by Definition, cannot be normal.

p94, Outflank wrote:Units with the 'scout' or 'infiltrate' special rules...

p95, Deep Strike wrote:Units special rules allow them to enter play...

You're arguing in this very thread that special rule = normal.

Gwar! wrote:Except the Trygons rule is letting you change it.

And if so it allows you to sidestep Dormant's 'everyone dies' clause. And Chamelaeonic Skin. Them being the same kind of rule as deep strike and scout/infiltrate - the special kind.

That little summary of reserves, by the way, was for the benefit of this dude-

Homer S wrote:My reading of page 94 is that at the start of the game you choose which units are arriving from reserve, not how they will arrive. When they become available, you then state how from the list above. Am I missing something?

And this dude-

Toban wrote:Where it's stated that we should declare, before the beginnig of the deployment fase who will do what?

I'm inclined to agree with forkbanger.

Coming in from reserves "as normal" means coming in as every unit in the game can, as in from the board edge (or whatever the mission states is normal).

A unit with deep strike doesn't HAVE to deep strike, it can enter "as normal" from the board edge OR deep strike and the same is true for outflank.

The fact that you are choosing the option to do a different type of deployment means that you are no longer performing the standard (or "normal") deployment.

Or to go at it from a different angle:
You don't need a rule (other than the standard reserve rule) to deploy from the board edge when you come in from reserves. You DO need another rule (scout, infiltrate, etc.) to outflank or deep strike.