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I think that's why he gets hailed for improving people's game, because he gets people thinking about how the game actually works, which is nice for people who wouldn't know where to start analyzing a game. So long as people start thinking about it in an organized fashion, they'll be able to start developing as better players. The problem is when he claims that it's the particular positions and opinions that he advocates, rather than the simple fact of encouraging people to develop their own thoughts about the game.

That's just exacerbated by the semi-illiterate way he presents himself ('lol' is not punctuation), his inability to communicate without being rude (haven't met him, but was unpleasantly surprised by his guest-spot on a gaming podcast; I was like "He's like that in person!? Good lord..."), and most of all his obnoxious self-aggrandizement. The latter is probably his most obnoxious trait, and it's one he shares with other Internet personalities like Dashofpepper and Gwar.

I just don't know why this is in the army lists section.

I think that Stelek's advice is counter-productive though. Counter-productive, and loud. He has a pretty popular blog, and everything he speaks he speaks as if it were the high law...

I just think his advice is rubbish. (mostly, the rest of it we already found out ourselves ) I would love to face him at the NOVA Open, we'll see though, we'll see.

He sounds like he's trying to be like Maddox from http://maddox.xmission.com

Of course, though, this isn't possible.

Anyone who likes name calling, cursing and belittling is just a sad little person who really has no clue on how to get on in life (unless you are doing this to your friends, then that is considered bonding).
I can do without this type of "broadening" the on-going monologue is painful. I will happily take the differing opinions in Dakka because it is in small diverse and relevant doses.
Optimal lists are great but each of us have a certain mindset that not one list fits all. Just ask anyone how they painted their best miniature and no two techniques at any given step are alike, same with tactics.

To specifically go out and push for a given blog does seem to be a trolling behavior, how about talk about something relevant and quote a part of the blog for support, then it would be less obvious? Meanwhile I can happily say the blog is a hateful little thing to anyone that listens... sounds good?

Why haven't any of the mods moved this over to discussions?

God only knows we can always use another stelek debate here. We all need to hear about how the advice here pales in comparison to stelek's blog. Personally I don't really want to listen to a teacher that belittles the student. I want to be critisized and have my ideas torn into, but in a less hostile way than stelek tends to do.

I think that before somebody can go around proclaiming himself to be the lexicon of 40k list building and strategy he needs to have an impressive tournament record.

Dakka is one of the best places I know of to discuss 40k with other intelligent courtious people.

labmouse42 wrote:Meh....

The writer of the blog has some points, but the delivery system of those good points is lacking. Let me give an example...

though the Scout/Smoke Launcher crap is bulls*** that needs to be re-addressed by GW. I will gladly take my smoked vehicle up your tailpipe on turn 1 and fry you, then take my 4+ cover save from my pre-game scout move

This negative attitude towards a hobby is not really something I identify with for 2 important reasons.

1) I play a game to have fun. If I want to have a negative attitude about something, Ill go sit in traffic.
2) There is a built-in "cool" limit with 40k. Were playing with toy soldiers. People should not take themselves to seriously with this game.

Sorry but popping smoke during a scout move, shooting in your T1 and then still getting the cover save in your opponents T1 is BS. But this is what can happen is scout move smoke use is allowed.

*Points at BA faq*

Lt. Coldfire wrote:He sounds like he's trying to be like Maddox from http://maddox.xmission.com

Wow. I thought the very same thing after reading a few of his non-gaming "rants!"

...I'm not a big fan of Maddox, by the way.

It's just his opinion and how he would set up his Tau against you. I don't think tau really have a problem punching through a 3+ armor save, but even tau when by number of shots, just like Orks, except Tau can actually hit. When you roll 800+ dice a game against an army, then tend to fold, regardless of what kind of save is backing them up.

His opinion is actually sound. Hulksmash admits that Tau are one of the armies that would give his Wolves trouble. He is stating that he can take out a good bit of Tau shooting and negate their effect in 2 turns ( I think it is safe to assume that he is opting to go first to get a nice alpha strike).

As pointed out by Keldaur

"Hulksmash, you are not going to have LOS to kill the suits. It's not that hard:
1 - Short poles for skimmers. Checked.2 - Crisis JSJ behind your skimmers. Checked."

The above statement covers the statistical kill 5.5 suits a turn statement. This isn't saying your opponent is dumb, this is saying you are smart as you know your opponent is going first, so you setup to not get your face beat in.

Setup is as so
"You setup first. I refuse flank you. I setup so I'm only in range of one unit of missile launchers. You move the others. One is still out of range. I punk at least one unit of missiles, likely two. Railguns stop your vehicle rush, which is also out of position because you cannot know where I am deploying. Rinse and repeat as needed to minimize damage to my suits, block LOS to them using Fish and Hammerheads, and keep pissing you off as you try to down AV12 or AV13 with 4+ cover saves. Oh and by this point you have lots of Piranhas blocking your remaining mech movement, and they become a priority...because they have meltaguns, and WILL blow your tanks up. "

Your opponent doesn't really have any say in the matter as they go first, they setup first. This is a matter of your intelligence, not your opponents.

He even clarifies stating "Does it always work? No."

He continues
"Anyway, if you go first--I split my army into two halves, or if I think I can take you apart with my turn 1, I refuse flank (makes jamming your movement easier). If I split into two halves, I still have range AND mobility to hit both of your halves (although one half will be hit only after the other half is dead). If you refuse flank, I'll side-shot and snipe you to death from the other corner while you advance...I'll still cock-block you with Piranhas (sorry, you were shooting my suits, that you can't see behind my fish/heads, or was it the vehicles with the 4+ cover save you were shooting? which is it? oh, everything and Marinez Win!, got it) because I'm mobile, and you aren't. Which means I shoot all the time, and you don't. Moving 12" to come get me with your SW? First off, I'll stop you midfield with blockers my first turn, and any missile units that are a threat die first. It's not like *I* have only 3 units to shoot with. I have triple the number of shooting units you do. I can and will torrent your missiles away, sometimes takes a turn or two, but it happens. I take the damage, but I don't mind--so long as some survive, I can massacre your foot marines (as they are now foot marines) as they clamber through the wreckage of my Piranhas to come get me, which slows you down even further. By turn 3, you probably don't have any ranged fire support left, I've lost 4-5 suits, and I'm starting to feel nervous about your Marines being so close. So I start killing them while I move my Kroot and Drones into position to take your charges and keep your meltaguns away from my suits and heavy vehicles.

Can a novice do this? Hell no."

Every bit of his advice is sound. I understand that nothing always works out the way you think it might and he does too. He isn't remarking to the intelligence of your opponent, in fact he is assuming that he is playing any intelligent opponent. Your opponent has no say in how you set up, they can only just deal with what you put out after they themselves set up. They are forced to react to you, because they choose first turn, if you had first turn, things would be different.

having posted lists as a newbie here I can honestly say the cristicism and advice, while sometimes harsh, is invaluable. We don't need another site for even "harsher" advice!

matthc wrote:It's just his opinion and how he would set up his Tau against you.

Can a novice do this? Hell no.

Every bit of his advice is sound. I understand that nothing always works out the way you think it might and he does too. He isn't remarking to the intelligence of your opponent, in fact he is assuming that he is playing any intelligent opponent. Your opponent has no say in how you set up, they can only just deal with what you put out after they themselves set up. They are forced to react to you, because they choose first turn, if you had first turn, things would be different.

Beyond an amzing ability to iterate the obvious in nice new ways.... What were you actually trying to say there?
That you feel it's a huge benifit to go second as you can 'deploy accordingly'???
Can a novice do this? Yes it may not be statistically likely but yes they could. Sigh....
Also I like that players such as this never loses to someone whos 'average' or a 'inexperianced' their always losing to 'the new best player out there'. So if you can find an example of him losing to someone he does not have a high oppinion of I'd be quite interested.

matthc, you are the perfect example of the group of people I pointed out who don't think and take Stelek's ideas at face value

If I set up in the middle and my Long Fangs don't get range to your suits/army, I gladly quit 40k :-). And you attempt to blast my LongFangs with your HH? Go ahead and lets exchange shots, especially when I m going first. I m pretty sure the SW codex can pack a larger no. of range weapon than the Tau can :-).

If are setting up all of your long fangs in the middle, their it's not like you have range to everything on the board. A lot of things, but not everything. ;D

I also think you are ignoring the line of sight issue. If you set up all of your shooting units in one area of the board, it shouldn't be too hard to find a spot where your long fangs don't have line of sight toobecause of terrain, in which case you open fire on the rest of your opponents army. I also don't think he is talking about using HH at this point-range as templates become far less effective at higher levels where weight of fire comes into it's own.

I'm not taking everything Stelek says at face value, I understand what you are saying in regards to castling up, I was just answering the complete disdain for his tactics made by another user farther up. I'm not saying the tactics that he listed are complete win, I'm just saying that they are the appropriate set up against armies such such as SW, IG, ect.

He doesn't directly answer the issue of castling, but I'm sure if we wandering over to the blog and asked for his answer to it, he would have one, as opposed to the people who just think their is no tactical answer to the situation presented.

I think about the things he says before I agree with them, I know a lot of people don't and I know that an even larger number of people don't agree with the things he says before even thinking about them. ;D

While SW have long fangs to put out shots (3 units that can potentially target 6 units), Tau usually have 5 + units, each with the firepower of a long fang squad. To each army it's own, but their exists a method to win with nearly all armies (*cough* Orks * cough * Necrons *cough * Chaos Daemons).

Stelek's large defense of Tau does come with bias as it is his favored army, but I think he is correct when it comes down to the effectiveness of the codex. While their may really only exist one kind of list for the Tau codex, it is a much better list than the one list that Necrons, Orks, Chaos, Chaos Daemons and several other codicies can put out. Note the last statement was my own personal opinion and I understand that a million people on the internet will disagree with me, so I will explain myself.

The Tau codex packs large volumes of fire. Not in the form of templates, but in pure shooting. Between Plasma, Missile Pods, Fusion Blaster, and Rail guns. While Tau troops are arguably the least survivable of all troops in the game, they have access to vehicles that can put out a good number shots, has a good armor value, good mobility and access to a 4+ cover save all the time (well to vehicles over 12 inches away). The Kroot units they have serve as the perfect blocking units, able to deal a decent amount of CC damage in form of sheer number of attacks, while lasting long enough in combat to allow you time to position and fire once they die.

The piranahs they have are like speeders except with better armor and saves (that 4+ also), the ability to target multiple units and serve as great blocking and suicide units.

While Tau are a disadvantage because their real fire power lies in infantry units, the units are basically two wound devastators with the ability to take and fire two weapons. While their weapons are generally one strength lower then their marine counterparts, they can pack twice the volume without having to worry about things like standing still or overheating. Although they may lack template weapons when you use broadsides, the sheer number of shots you can put out really help mediate the problem of not using templates and the advantages of having tons of Strength 10 AP 1 really pays off against marines and other armies with heavy vehicle support.

To sum it up, while tau generally only have one build. Max suits with PR and MP, FW in Devilfish, Kroot with hounds, Piranhas and Broadsides, their one single build can cover all armies out there as opposed to others such as Orks,Daemons, and Daemon Hunters which have trouble with AV 14, Necrons which have trouble with nearly everything, yet still put out enough firepower to manage to put out enough heavy firepower to deal with marines and enough mobile firepower to deal with Eldar and IG.

I know that the number one reason that people dislike Tau is that they believe they fold to fast, armored assault armies. I agree. Tau are like IG with no tanks. Fortunately for Tau, they do have access to bubble wrap units to protect their infantry and JS Jump allows them to move behind their vehicles, letting them serve as mobile walls that block LOS and assault. I understand that everything I argue is theoretical and merely just strategy that almost anyone can argue for an army, but it's also how Tau have to be played. The reason Tau take flak, is because for most players it takes a long time to get to where you make no mistakes with your army and that's an army that Tau are. Tau play like SW in the sense that the majority of their firepower is concentrated in ground units, unfortunately Tau are a lot less unforgiving than a marine army to play, as once they get in assault they die like flies.

At 1750, a SW army can pack 18 Missile + Lasc, 4-5 of which are Twinlinked, 6 AutoCannons, all 48 inch range, and still has CC ability.
At 1750, 36+ inch range, a Tau army only has 5 RailGuns, 9 Missile Pods. I think by pure volley of fire, SW already won the game.
So matthc, I m not convinced by you.

You are right that the Suits pack weapons usually one strength lower than their marine counterpart, but not at double the volume. A Squad of Crisis Suits has only roughly the same volume of shots (after taking into account BS and weapon range) as the squad of Long Fangs (while the Long Fangs are still cheaper), but with lower strength. They do have the advantage of mobility, but still not as point efficient as the SWs overall, methinks.

ALso, he WAS talking about HH. See, that's the problem when you don't read and think.

matthc wrote:

To sum it up, while orks generally only have two builds. Max KANZ with KFF and FS, or Boys and Nobs in BattleW, Gretchin with cover, Warbuggies and Deffkoptas, their TWO DIFFERENT builds can cover all armies out there as opposed to others such as Tau ,Pet hate here, and Army I always lose with here which have trouble with Oversimplified issue here, Necrons which have trouble with nearly everything, yet still put out enough firepower to manage to put out enough heavy firepower to deal with marines and enough mobile firepower to deal with Eldar and IG.

I know that the number one reason that people dislike Army of choice is that they believe they fold to Glass Cannon armies. I agree. Tau are like DE with no Raiders. Fortunately for DE, they do have access to bubble Raider units to attack Tau infantry and Raiders Fast Skimmer move allows them to position behind their vehicles, letting them serve as mobile walls that block LOS and assault.

I understand that everything I argue is theoretical and merely just strategy that almost anyone can argue for an army, but it's also how Tau have to be played. The reason Tau take flak, is because for most players it takes a long time to get to where you make no mistakes with your army and that's an army that Tau are. Tau play like SW in the sense that the majority of their firepower is concentrated in ground units, unfortunately Tau are a lot less unforgiving than a marine army to play, as once they get in assault they die like flies.

I like your argument. I had a bit of fun showing just indeed how it can be applied to any army - if you know what you're doing...

When stelek was a member I did get some really solid advice from him. Yeah he could be rude, but I have rather thick skin and it never really bothered me. Plus I found he was far more polite in PM's. As far as the quality of dakka goes, I love this site. I don't always like the people who post, but I never really let it bother me. Which I guess is rather ironic because if you ask my RL friends they will tell you how caustic I can be, yet here I am much more tame. Maybe that's just because this is Yaks house, and I respect his rules.
Either way stelly didn't respect those rules in the eyes of the mods, and thus he is no longer a dakkaite. So I say we get this army list forum back to army lists!


Automatically Appended Next Post:
When stelek was a member I did get some really solid advice from him. Yeah he could be rude, but I have rather thick skin and it never really bothered me. Plus I found he was far more polite in PM's. As far as the quality of dakka goes, I love this site. I don't always like the people who post, but I never really let it bother me. Which I guess is rather ironic because if you ask my RL friends they will tell you how caustic I can be, yet here I am much more tame. Maybe that's just because this is Yaks house, and I respect his rules.
Either way stelly didn't respect those rules in the eyes of the mods, and thus he is no longer a dakkaite. So I say we get this army list forum back to army lists!

striderx wrote:At 1750, a SW army can pack 18 Missile + Lasc, 4-5 of which are Twinlinked, 6 AutoCannons, all 48 inch range, and still has CC ability.
At 1750, 36+ inch range, a Tau army only has 5 RailGuns, 9 Missile Pods. I think by pure volley of fire, SW already won the game.
.

Except at that point value you could also pack 12 missile pods ( 3 for each elite slot and 3 for your hq and bodyguard and if you wanted you could add another hq slot for 3 more). You also are forgetting that tau missile pods are assault 2.

matthc wrote:

striderx wrote:At 1750, a SW army can pack 18 Missile + Lasc, 4-5 of which are Twinlinked, 6 AutoCannons, all 48 inch range, and still has CC ability.
At 1750, 36+ inch range, a Tau army only has 5 RailGuns, 9 Missile Pods. I think by pure volley of fire, SW already won the game.
.

Except at that point value you could also pack 12 missile pods ( 3 for each elite slot and 3 for your hq and bodyguard and if you wanted you could add another hq slot for 3 more). You also are forgetting that tau missile pods are assault 2.

And if add that extra Missile Pods in, you have to take out the RailGuns. Obviously you don't know what can be pack into 1750, and you don't read Stelek's 1750 list, and start spewing gak here.

This is the calibre of the readers of Stelek's blog :-).

TBH Stelek's behaviour wouldn't be tolerated at most Tournaments. I don't think I've met a TO that wouldn't tear up his registration and call security. Actually I don't I've met many people who wouldn't have the urge to put a biro into his eye-socket after he gloats, and he is a gloater you can see it from everything says, the term Sore-Winner is veritably defined by him.

His comments regarding his opponent's intelligence is both insulting and self-insulting. It seem's he's almost dependant on the other player being too stupid to play and breathe at the same time to achieve his victories. That isn't a good thing to project when you're also claiming to be the 40k Messiah.

I don't like how he treats random chance. He doesn't seem to anticipate failed rolls and applies base statistics to things such as shooting wounds or close combat wounds, but not for things like reserve rolls which are more influential on the way a battle flows

Going on from that, Orks would be unstoppable if they worked out the way his dice rolls seem to, I mean SAG's would be double 6s all the time and just nuking whole armies.

His strategy debates don't seem to anticipate failure. Being able to craft and execute a flawless strategy isn't as skill demanding as being able to develop a strategy that can adapt on the fly and has a fallback Plan B that is able to succeed specifically because the Plan A fails.
Turning near-certain defeat into a minor win is more worthy of respect than such rigid strategies he espouses.

His ranking of armies is short-sighted, following on from the random chance point above it seems these armies only have their placings because he determines what the exact dice rolls are for that race at all times.

Yes he does raise points that are interesting, but not often enough for me to even think of trying to excuse his manner.

In response to the OP there is a reason we aren't Stelek: we're not douchebags.

He's fairly intelligent and perceptive. You just have to put up with the aggressive, grating attitude.

After all, he wasn't banned because he was wrong but because his drive to win all arguments made sure nobody else wanted to put up with him.

The Grog wrote:He's fairly intelligent and perceptive.

Did you know that the use of 'fairly' there at best means you are being impartial and worst means 'almost'?

Well "fairly" is a little too vague anyway. I mean genetics-wise I'm fairly close to an Orangutan (98%) but not as close as I am to a Chimpanzee(99%), and certainly far closer than a Cabbage (49%)

I dunno, I mean he made the absolute best ork list possible:
http://www.yesthetruthhurts.com/2009/12/orks-again.html

How can I disrespect a guy who makes an ork list like that?

ChrisCP wrote:
Did you know that the use of 'fairly' there at best means you are being impartial and worst means 'almost'?

You seem to have a different useage of the English language than I do. How you got from 'fairly' to 'almost' I don't know.

He's not Einstein, nor is he a dumbass or even merely average considering how many of his points seem to have merit.

Not 'highly' nor 'of average'. I can't stand reading him for long enough to form a more specific opinion.

The Grog wrote:

ChrisCP wrote:
Did you know that the use of 'fairly' there at best means you are being impartial and worst means 'almost'?

You seem to have a different useage of the English language than I do. How you got from 'fairly' to 'almost' I don't know.

A more precise use maybe. Read your dictionary