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Polonius wrote:
For all of it's grimness, the GW universe is still a place of escapist fantasy.

You obliviously never played a Ratcatcher in WFRPG (1st or 2nd edition of course). Sometimes it is over the top but other elements are much grimmer and closer to reality, it really just seems to depend on the writer.

This thread has actually compelled me to cease over a year of lurking and post something. So, uh, congrats.

The fact that it is a bear and is called "Regimental Mascot" immediately made me think of Wojtek (Voytek), the brown bear cub that was adopted in 1942 by Polish troops stationed in Iran. Wojtek became the mascot of an artillery supply company and helped to haul ammunition during the battle of Monte Cassino.

Disappointed that no one has brought him up yet, since I'd say that's the most obvious inspiration (especially since Wotjek spent his postwar years in the Edinburgh Zoo and the story is apparently well-known in England).

I think you're reading far too much into it, OoieGoie.

Karon wrote:

Thortek wrote:It is just some pewter and paint man chill, its not like GW chained some bears up and made them dance to get a good picture to use for the sculpt.

You know that for a fact?

I'm sure they used google and found a picture.

@OP: I guess this is the difference between us. To you the handler looks troublesome, to me he looks like he's been near mauled once or twice. Model doesn't bother me anymore than having an entire faction dedicated to excruciating torture lasting for months while the torturers get off on your screams and use your blood for unpleasant purposes or the faction thats dedicated to mass genocide. Considerably less actually.

Yeah, dancing bears and bear-baiting were cruel. (still are in the countries they're practised in)

So? GW isn't actually capturing bears; they're making a model of one. In the same way that they aren't committing interstellar genocide; they're just making models of men doing so. Some bits of history aren't nice, but you can't get offended every time you see a picture of it.

As a side note, I think the designers are aware that led bears would be frowned on today. It's not supposed to be funny, more a bit grim, in keeping with the black plague, dirty peasants atmosphere of WHFB.

WHFB is a fantasy game based on mediaeval/renaissance history.

In those times this sort of cruelty was widely practised. Elizabethan London was host to Shakespeare's Globe and bear baiting pits.

That said, mediaeval war involved a lot of massacring and raping of prisoners -- I don't think we want to see that depicted in miniature form.

To me the bear is the acceptable side of the line, however I can understand if other people don't want to use it.

I don't play WHFB so it doesn't affect me directly.

In olden times, a wild animal that was captured and raised for the circus, menagerie, or traveling entertainment would have a chain with a metal ring through the nose. It made the beast easier to control. GW didn't have the guts to portray things quite so grim/dark as that.

I agree with the OP that it is disturbing, especially considering that the mascot is for one of the "good" races. I play my mini games for the epic confrontation between two warlike combatant races, playing out the eternal dance of war for the gods. Representation of the casual evils and cruelties that beings perpetrate on one another I can do without.

Polonius wrote:Compare their fluff to, say, a piece about a character who first starting killing with an uncle that sexually abused him and his siblings for years, which set him off on a quest to fill the psychological holes left by the abuse through random violence. The first is fun and ridiculous, the latter is just upsetting.

But that story DOES sound rather like the background to Mad Donna Ulanti from Necromunda. GW do sometimes 'throw in' quite disturbing background pieces in their stories, they just never elaborate on them.

Anyway, to the OP...

I don't find the bear offensive at all. Regimental 'mascots' of animals (including Wojtek mentioned above) have been seen throughout history. I remember going to Cardiff Castle, who i believe still have one of their regiment's goat 'mascot' stuffed and on display. Warhammer is loosely based on various periods of history, and the Empire, of all the armies in WHFB, are most likely to have them. It's a characterful replacement for a musician or banner bearer.

If people find the idea 'morally wrong' then, well it WAS morally wrong, but so are an awful lot of wars, and that's what we pretend to do in this game. I can hardly say it's worse than the idea of a lobotomised Servitor or one of the DE slave girl minis...

As a former dolphin trainer and well-versed expert in a wide variety of animal life ... and definitely someone who not only cares about the enviro, but spent an entire first career proving that care ...

It's a little toy soldier.

Get off your butts and do something material to help actual wildlife, the environment, whatever. Seriously. Sniping at "offensive" toy soldiers from the peanut gallery is just silly.

Warhammer is a grimdark setting with grimdark miniatures. This one is no exception and certainly not glorifying dancing bears (that are still existing in Russia BTW). But this is nothing versus what the Empire (or Orcs or Daemons or Skaven) does to their enemies. Skaven even have slaves as a common unit. Not to speak of all those skulls.So this collector's item is just a minor example of how grimdark the Warhammer World is.

As others have suggested I would put the bear baiting and dancing into a historical context.

It happened, and given the Renaissance flavour of Empire and the Fantasy setting, it would be fairly normal for a hurdy gurdy player and dancing bear.

Dancing bears were still being seen with barrel organs in England in the late 19th century and possibly even later.

What's with the caricature style with these figures anyway? Fails to hit the mark imho

FWIW, my favourite animal are bears! they are amazing.
The cruelty still being inflicted on them in some parts of the world is unforgivable.
As a proud Warwickshire chap it is only right to love the Bears!

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:As a proud Warwickshire chap it is only right to love the Bears!

Bear lovin' in Warickshire?

[Adds to places to avoid list]

"Abuse an animal is bad,Killing people is ok."
You think like this,right?

Maybe like this,
"Killing people is way to defend animals! DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!"

Anyway,its just mini.

It's just a game.

We can compare this to totalitarianisms/Imperium, nazis in WWII games...

notprop wrote:

Chibi Bodge-Battle wrote:As a proud Warwickshire chap it is only right to love the Bears!

Bear lovin' in Warickshire?

[Adds to places to avoid list]

Avoid it if you want mate
your loss it's a great County!


C'mon you BEARS!!!
Not doing so well in the proper game but not bad at the one dayers!

Sir Motor
Who says that it is right to kill humans?
Compassion for animals is not mutually exclusive of compassion for humans.

What's the matter? Too grim and dark for you?

CitizenPrime wrote:Seriously? You are talking about a game where the fluff of the entire universe is bloody gorey war on a galactic scale...

This is a fantasy miniatures, not 40k!

Kroothawk wrote:Warhammer is a grimdark setting with grimdark miniatures... So this collector's item is just a minor example of how grimdark the Warhammer World is.

Raxor wrote:What's the matter? Too grim and dark for you?

I could be wrong, but I've always reserved the phrase "grimdark" for 40k as well. Fantasy is not the same, imho, and definitely not as dark. I am unpleasantly reminded of the historical crusades by many of the space marine pics/jargon. I do not find the same in fantasy... but that is just my $0.02. I just don't think it's as interchangeable as people put, and since this is obviously an empire-type mini, I think the OP had a good point.

If the intent of the mini was Chaos or Dark Eldar enslaving a bear, that's one thing. I think the intent of the mini was to be funny/amusing, which it does not really pull off for me.

I don't really have a problem with it, I just think it's silly to defend something as being "grimdark" when (imho) that was not the intention of the sculpt.

Genosaurer wrote:The fact that it is a bear and is called "Regimental Mascot" immediately made me think of Wojtek (Voytek), the brown bear cub that was adopted in 1942 by Polish troops stationed in Iran. Wojtek became the mascot of an artillery supply company and helped to haul ammunition during the battle of Monte Cassino.

Thanks for registering and posting this! I would never have guessed something like that... it does make sense as the inspiration behind the model, though!

MVBrandt wrote:As a former dolphin trainer and well-versed expert in a wide variety of animal life ... and definitely someone who not only cares about the enviro, but spent an entire first career proving that care ...

It's a little toy soldier.

Get off your butts and do something material to help actual wildlife, the environment, whatever. Seriously. Sniping at "offensive" toy soldiers from the peanut gallery is just silly.

Whose been sniping? I think some people have said they find it personally disturbing, but I'm not sure why saying that so offends you.

Likewise, it's just a little opinion on a toy soldier.




Automatically Appended Next Post:

Sir Motor wrote:"Abuse an animal is bad,Killing people is ok."
You think like this,right?

Maybe like this,
"Killing people is way to defend animals! DESTROY ALL HUMANS!!"

Anyway,its just mini.

yes. Because I find a mini depicting an abused animal unpleasant, I clearly am a sociopath that wants to end human life. You caught me.

There seems to be a great zest in some people in this thread to shout down those that are "offended" by this mini. That's fine, as i think a grand total of.. let me count... zero people have said they were offended. I think you'll find that some people find the tone of the mini to clash a little with what they expect from WFB, particularly the empire. After thinking and reading some posts, I can see that it does show a bit more of the real atmosphere of the Empire. Still, my Empire regiments wouldn't enslave a bear as a mascot, so I won't be purchasing it.

Ahtman wrote:What is the mini used for? It looks like an Empire fig but I don't recall it being in the army list.

insaniak wrote:It's not meant as a playable mini. It's from a bunch of sets of collector's models they're releasing with the new Warhammer.

...in a similar vein to the Eldar Bonesinger they released back with the last Eldar codex. It doesn't do anything, although you're free to find creative ways to wedge it into your army.

You know what is harsh?

1. people maiming, slaughtering and causing injury to other humans and/or sentient beings.

2. wide-scale war, enslavement,occupation and oppression.

3. Exploitation of the poor and powerless

4. Greed, military/political/reigious corruption, genocide, torture, etc., etc.

5. necromancy and demon-worship

and the list could go on and on...


Of all the things to take offense at or take a moral stand on in GW games/fluff a bear with an eye patch seems pretty low on the list.

CT GAMER wrote:

Of all the things to take offense at or take a moral stand on in GW games/fluff a bear with an eye patch seems pretty low on the list.

Again, great point. Again, nobody has spoken of taking offense or a moral stand.

Genosaurer wrote:This thread has actually compelled me to cease over a year of lurking and post something. So, uh, congrats.

The fact that it is a bear and is called "Regimental Mascot" immediately made me think of Wojtek (Voytek), the brown bear cub that was adopted in 1942 by Polish troops stationed in Iran. Wojtek became the mascot of an artillery supply company and helped to haul ammunition during the battle of Monte Cassino.

Disappointed that no one has brought him up yet, since I'd say that's the most obvious inspiration (especially since Wotjek spent his postwar years in the Edinburgh Zoo and the story is apparently well-known in England).

I think you're reading far too much into it, OoieGoie.

I had never heard of this before, it's quite a light hearted tale. Perhaps it is based on this afterall.

Genosaurer wrote:Wotjek spent his postwar years in the Edinburgh Zoo and the story is apparently well-known in England

Edinburgh being in Scotland. Scotland is part of the UK, not England. Cheers!

Polonius wrote:as i think a grand total of.. let me count... zero people have said they were offended.

don't cast yourself as the prosecuted one.

All of which are represented by Warhammer on a grand scale

I agree CT, but if people find the representation of animal cruelty disturbing, it is probably because they have some empathy and the ability to link it with what is actually happening to bears as we speak. There is no need to chastise people for this.

Klawz wrote:

Polonius wrote:as i think a grand total of.. let me count... zero people have said they were offended.

don't cast yourself as the prosecuted one.

I'm pretty sure you meant persecuted. And how did I cast myself as anything? I'm no victim, I'm just saying that there seem to be a lot of people in this thread with their "shut up you hippies about being offended" rhetoric on hair trigger, despite it nobody really being offended.

And, I suppose, at least one person in this thread has heavily implied that those that don't like this mini want to kill all of humanity. So... there is that.

Polonius wrote:

Klawz wrote:

Polonius wrote:as i think a grand total of.. let me count... zero people have said they were offended.

don't cast yourself as the prosecuted one.

I'm pretty sure you meant persecuted. And how did I cast myself as anything? I'm no victim, I'm just saying that there seem to be a lot of people in this thread with their "shut up you hippies about being offended" rhetoric on hair trigger, despite it nobody really being offended.

And, I suppose, at least one person in this thread has heavily implied that those that don't like this mini want to kill all of humanity. So... there is that.

I did. But I'm sure I can name at least two people who agree with you.

Everyone loves armored war bear and bear Calvary.

Why they chose to make these instead of ^

I dont get you GW....

I'm with the OP on this one. I think it's in poor taste.

CitizenPrime wrote:Must......not.....get.....on.....soapbox.....


errrrg........

F it.

Seriously? You are talking about a game where the fluff of the entire universe is bloody gorey war on a galactic scale... but you're "affected" by the poor bear.

Sounds like a PETA member complaining about the treatment of animals while eating a big mac.

I'm pretty tired of PETAspeak. In my profession, I see children, the mentally handicapped, and the eldarly abused, neglected, and generally thrown away, but all I hear about is the poor animals.....

Forget the animals. They are secondary to people. Can we please focus on humanity before we move on to the animals?

But people only pay attention to things right in front of them, once someone else has made a big deal about it, and since you will NEVER see the abuse of humanity, you won't jump on THAT bandwagon.

Impress me. Prove me wrong. Volunteer at a nursing home.

Ok thanks. Animal suffering isn't more important than human suffering. If there can be any doubt about it, then I agree, but your analysis has nothing to do with this thread.

By releasing this model, GW are tying our own reality to the horrific reality of their 41st century; thus removing a layer of emotional and psychological separation that we have from it, a layer that allows us to enjoy interacting with their reality without being affected by its - intolerably violent, if you care to imagine them - consequences.

In simpler terms, 40k is unreal, and unrealistic, when compared to our world and time; and this model brings it a bit closer to home, too close for some of us.

However, that hardly means they're profoundly wrong to release it. I don't like it, but I can happily avoid the landmine of getting upset about it, or being affected by it, by not buying it.

Legion.

Errrr...three people.
BTW Legion, this is Fantasy, NOT 40K.

Klawz wrote:
BTW Legion, this is Fantasy, NOT 40K.

Oh yeah. I fail at life. Anyway, the sentiment stands, to only a slightly lesser degree.

RiTides wrote:If the intent of the mini was Chaos or Dark Eldar enslaving a bear, that's one thing. I think the intent of the mini was to be funny/amusing, which it does not really pull off for me.

I don't really have a problem with it, I just think it's silly to defend something as being "grimdark" when (imho) that was not the intention of the sculpt.

Buried among all the predictable, tedious "It's just a game!" and "Don't make a big deal of this thing I'm trying to turn into a big deal even though you actually didn't!" responses, this is one of the better observations. Looking at it last night, I couldn't really say it was a bad mini, but it just looked off somehow. I think this is it, I don't know how to interpret it. I can't tell if it's supposed to be humorous or grimdark. The subject matter's not really humorous because of the OP's points, so if that was the intent it would be kind of unfortunate.

Also, not being a Fantasy player myself, someone please tell me that the heavy, metal looking glove on the handler's right hand is the Fantasy equivalent of a powerfist!? (I realize it's probably not, but that would get me even more stoked about starting Fantasy with the new edition!)