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Personally don't like the miniaturebecause I think it is a fairly crappy / mundane sculpt but I think you are being overly sensitive.

As others have pointed out it seems a little odd to randomly pick one miniature out of a host of others and be specifically offended by that. For instance do the naked slave girls on that Dark Eldar vehicles bother you also? These could be taken to represent slavery, sexual sadism, human sex trafficking, and probably a lot of other sick / very wrong stuff. I think what I am trying to tell you and what others are trying to get at are that there is a lot of very adult nasty stuff in Warhammer and 40k that if you really think about are distasteful that is what gives it an adult background which the miniatures sometimes support.

Selectively picking out one out of a multitude of these issues to bring up without looking at the bigger picture usually will get you a lot of "negative" comments on forums because people want to know why you chose that to get upset about and not something else?

RiTides wrote:Show me a bear carrying ammunition or loading a cannon for its handler, and that would have been so very cool!!

I don't play WFB, but I'm sooooo tempted to convert an Empire cannon to have a bear loader.

I have known for a long time that wild animals used for amusement get abused, but the OP gave me a lot of new info about dancing bears, and I learned a lot. So thanks for that.

And learning that made me appreciate this mini more. And not because I'm a fan of bear abuse.

See, maybe I'm a minority here, but I like my Warhammer fantasy to be believable (note I said "believable", not "realistic". People seem to get those two confused a lot.) And part of "believable" for me is there being no "good" team that I'm supposed to empathize with because they're like me. The humans of Warhammer fantasy are backwards and barbaric, and I wouldn't have it any other way. I don't play Empire, but if I did now that I've learned just how cruel bear dancing is I would absolutely put this model in my army.

I see a growing trend in GW minis to more and more ridiculous and unfeeling extremes- empire engineers on silly clockwork horses, wood elf sorcerors in constipated poses floating on erect cloaks for no reason at all, Space Wolves riding wolves that shoot wolves armed with wolves, the entire Blood Angels line... and it's just nice to see a miniature that interjects a bit of humanity into the game. Sometimes humanity sucks, and I applaud the sculptor of this mini for not being afraid to represent that without falling off the otherside and going the angsty dark "extreme" angle.

It may just be that the bear is one of those S&M bears and likes to be chained up like that...in that case, I feel sorry for the man...I bet he's wondering where his life went wrong...

I like the idea, but not a fan of the mini, +1 poor sculpt (as I think are a coupl eof the other new colelctor ones).

I can understand where OP's ocming from. Yes it's a gorey fantasy game but there is a line where it can become bad taste (line is different from person to person - no offense intended to anyone). Boobs, gore etc. is fine when we know its fake, but if somethings based on something real then it can (and does) offend people. What would you say if gw released guard slaves or something that bore a stricking resembelence to (cliche)ethiopian children? would that be fine because it's fantasy? I think it's a matter of personal taste, I don't think the model should be banned, it's not close enough to a dancing bear to offend me, but that said I don't like the way people have jumped on th OP for showing they care about things, whether you think they should care about something else more shouldn't come into it.

OP - good point. As GW does get 'darker' they need to decide where the line will be drawn in what they produce - kids are a target customer. Having said that DON'T BAN THE BOOBS! or the guns/swords/gore etc

Please don't slate me for this!

The way I see it, there is a Wonderfull thing called prespective.

Theres a big diference of a representation of something in a picture/ miniature/ imaginary alternative worlds and the actual reality!

Every fictional creation has some strong bridges with reality yet its a diferent beast with diferent rules... its purpose is to entertain us.

What i'm trying to say is if you play say GTA games and enjoy it does not makes you a fraked up criminal IRL... and I rather see people using their prespective senses and dump some stress in those games than to be stressed up IRL.

Sounds offtopic? Its not, its the exact same subject... You are categorizing a imaginary reality and transposing it to reality.

I rather paint the miniature as a stress controll mechanism than spending time lableling it with pointless meanings.

I dont really care about animal abuse issues on my miniatures... In fact acts of cruelty in a miniature are rather common and amusing since I look at these in a completely diferent prespective.

Ailaros wrote:Yeah, a little tacky.

For WHFB, it doesn't really make sense. For 40k, it doesn't look NEARLY brutalized enough. I have a hard time seeing how this fits in with anything.

Some great conversion opportunities, though.

how does it not fit into the WHFB world and the Empire? i really don't understand how you can say that, do you read any of the fluff

Bah! The Warmaster Dwarfs have been enslaving bears for years. And this one has a muzzle and thrown in chains, but no one has stepped up and called for his freedom:



I have him somewhere, time to dig him out and set him free!!!!

I love the model and what it represents.

This isn't "Happy Land WHFB." This stuff happens, especially in a more medieval setting.

I believe the OP is overly sensitive, there is FAR worse imagery in Fantasy, let alone 40K. Seriously, a Servitor should be more bothersome to you than this. At least the bear has the option to go nuts and kill everything it can reach before it is put down. A Servitor can do nothing, since they just took a huge ice cream scoop to it's brain pan and MADE A HUMAN INTO AN UNTHINKING SLAVE.

Just a game, just models, calm down.

covenant84 wrote:What would you say if gw released guard slaves or something that bore a stricking resembelence to (cliche)ethiopian children?

See it all comes down to context. The dancing bear fits the Old Worlde context of Warhammer Fantasy. To my knowledge Etheopian-looking child slaves do not. If they did, I wouldn't really have a problem with it (if the minis were well-sculpted). It all comes down to context. Does the mini fit into the already-established setting? Then I don't have a problem with it.

As GW does get 'darker'

Sorry, I have to stop you right there. GW as a whole is not getting darker, IMHO. Orc/ks got darker. That's really about it. The other factions in the setting have been pretty dark for a long time. Lost and the Damned/Warhammer Fantasy Role-Play anyone? I might even say that in some ways GW minis are getting lighter (again, Space Wolves on wolves that shoot wolves armed with wolves).

I gotta say, the mini didn't elicit any real response from me. I didn't know about the barbarity behind dancing bears, but now that I do I'm not sure it makes any difference to me.

In fact, as others said, I think it fits in well with the barbarous setting of the game.

I see what the OP means and can also see why GW have made it to set a medieval grim dark theme. However it is quite an unecessary unit and did not really need to be produces. Maybe they could go on to model dark elves raping and pillaging. Or on the other hand they could just stick to things that are morally correct. Afterall in the real world there are no elves orks etc. But there are dancing bears and other such things so don't advertise it. Oh I'm not an animal rights person but I find human cruelty to animals much more barbaric than human cruelty to each other for some reason.

I don't like this on many levels.

Bear baiting/circus training is a pretty despicable cultural phenomenon, especially for the "good guys" of a setting.

Its 1 piece metal and not plastic so its' worthless aside from being part of the stupid diorama.

WTF is up with the stupid gloves with the claws coming through?

600 pound bear attached to 160 pounds of fresh meat by a 3 foot long chain?

What does the guy use the leather mitten for.. wiping the bear's bum? It seriously is worthless as protection.

It's just a thoughtless, stupid idea.

Now if they were playing from a seated position and the bear wasn't chained. that would be pretty cool. Bear's aren't really agressive by nature anyway so it's not like they would charge into battle.

Bad Taste, Bad Idea, Bad Execution so it gets two claws down from da Bear.

fullybakedbear wrote:I don't like this on many levels.

Bear baiting/circus training is a pretty despicable cultural phenomenon, especially for the "good guys" of a setting.

Its 1 piece metal and not plastic so its' worthless aside from being part of the stupid diorama.

WTF is up with the stupid gloves with the claws coming through?

600 pound bear attached to 160 pounds of fresh meat by a 3 foot long chain?

What does the guy use the leather mitten for.. wiping the bear's bum? It seriously is worthless as protection.

It's just a thoughtless, stupid idea.

Now if they were playing from a seated position and the bear wasn't chained. that would be pretty cool. Bear's aren't really agressive by nature anyway so it's not like they would charge into battle.

Bad Taste, Bad Idea, Bad Execution so it gets two claws down from da Bear.

That's what we're saying though, clearly the bear is the one in charge and the hurdy gurdy man is his slave, not the other way around. Either that or he's completely happy with the situation, a la the previous theory that the poster on the last page. If he's mistreated and brutalized and "just property" to be dealt with however necessary, why put an eyepatch on him?

Ed_Bodger wrote: Or on the other hand they could just stick to things that are morally correct.

So, 80-95% of WHFB/40K content needs to be removed...

I find human cruelty to animals much more barbaric than human cruelty to each other for some reason.

I find both rather disturbing in a real-world context.

However this miniature is very in keeping with much of the Empire imagery that has come before.

This model has a vibe very similar to some of the Mordheim side art, for example...

Real world animal cruelty (like real world war, killing, suffering of humans) is morally repugnant, I just don't get what the fuss is about regarding this figure in the context of this game...

Dark Eldar Prisoners. They're not sex slaves at all.

To be honest, when I saw the bear model I thought

"That trainer is in for it."

I could easily tell who was wearing the pants in that relationship.

CT GAMER wrote:

Ed_Bodger wrote: Or on the other hand they could just stick to things that are morally correct.

So, 80-95% of WHFB/40K content needs to be removed...

Exactly and it really doesnt work that way... GW or other world designers create a compelling universe, if you dont like it its your choice ( dont buy it dont read it), but inserting your moral issues or references in a fantasy world created by others is rather... weird

And this was a wide ranging practice in Olde Europe, where a lot of the Empire flavor comes from. If it was common, there it is a good chance you will see it in some form from GW. In fact I seem to remember some artwork at some point this was probably based off of. From what I know the collectors series is either one offs sculptures create for fun, practice or as training. They then decide to cast them.

I like this mini, and think it fits entirely into the Warhammer World. It's not a nice place for man or beast. Considering it's a nice collar around his neck and not a chain through his snout or lip lessens the reality of it. The bear seems to be in better shape than the man.

I'm going to claim ignorance here. I don't even want to read or contribute to the 'discussion' in this thread, I only read the first post and it make me think of this:

http://www.badassoftheweek.com/voytek.html

That is all.

That was an amazing article. Thanks.

My favourite bit was:
"He was given the rank of Private, assigned a serial number, and from that point on was included in all official unit rosters. The Brits were like, “whatever chaps”, and didn’t even bat an eye when Voytek marched ashore..."

CitizenPrime wrote:Seriously? You are talking about a game where the fluff of the entire universe is bloody gorey war on a galactic scale... ...Can we please focus on humanity before we move on to the animals?

Absolutely!

People slaughtering each other: fine
People possessed/sacrificed w/ demons: fine
Enslaved intelligent creatures: fine
Oppression: fine
Racism: fine
Religious persecution: fine
Slavery: fine

ON NOZ A POOR BEAR ON A CHAIN MINI!!!!

This game is called WARhammer, no one cares about the stupid bear.

PS, its FICTIONAL, grow up

Da Butcha wrote:

Finally, I saw the "metal glove" that I believe you interpreted as being used to discipline the bear, and I assumed it was a prosthetic hand, and that the "keeper" had made the mistake of trying to discipline the bear, and had lost a hand for his troubles. Thus, the glove that you saw as evidence of abuse of the bear, I saw as evidence of abuse of the handler.

To me, the metal glove seems to be there because that's the feeding hand. I know I'm not giving a bear a treat without some form of protection on my hand...

I like the model, I'm sure to throw one into my regiment where I can.

This reminds me of this girl who tried to ban COD World at War because you had to shoot guard dogs (or snap their necks, depending on how close they are), which she as a dog owner found very offensive.

fullybakedbear wrote:Bear baiting/circus training is a pretty despicable cultural phenomenon, especially for the "good guys" of a setting.

While I don't agree that Empire armies are "good guys", it sounds like you think it is inappropriate to portray the "good guys" engaging in this "pretty despicable cultural phenomenon". Why exactly is that? Does it apply to other "good guys" or other cultural phenomena?

Its 1 piece metal and not plastic so its' worthless aside from being part of the stupid diorama.

Plenty of people have already expressed that they intend to use it as part of their regimental command group. Clearly it's not useless. You just don't like it.

JOHIRA wrote:

Its 1 piece metal and not plastic so its' worthless aside from being part of the stupid diorama.

Plenty of people have already expressed that they intend to use it as part of their regimental command group. Clearly it's not useless. You just don't like it.

And since the 8th is the comming back of big blocks of regiments its a very ussefull and cool filler for a unit.

I like it - good, characterful model.

dietrich wrote:I don't play WFB, but I'm sooooo tempted to convert an Empire cannon to have a bear loader.

When I first read this, I read it as an Empire cannon to have a bear loaded. Now that would be some awesome ammunition!

NAVARRO wrote:GW or other world designers create a compelling universe, if you dont like it its your choice ( dont buy it dont read it), but inserting your moral issues or references in a fantasy world created by others is rather... weird

Notably, again, to all the knee jerk "grow up" and "it's a game" responses, certainly the OP and mostly everybody agreeing with them has not complained about the mini and has definitely not tried to push their feelings about it onto anybody. The OP was pretty clear that they just wanted to put some background out there that others may not be aware of and just wanted to throw their thoughts out there to see if anyone else was bothered. How they feel about it for themselves is, as noted here, is up to them, and they appropriately left everybody else to feel their own way as well, only to get a (low level) of flame back. So, you know, congratulations to that whole half of the thread for being completely unable to grasp any sort of nuance in a discussion. Meanwhile, the other half about why this might bother some people and not others has actually been pretty interesting and reasonably insightful.

BrookM wrote:This reminds me of the dumb college bitch who tried to ban COD World at War...

And in other news, shockingly, it continues to be super difficult to get women engaged in gaming. Congratulations BrookM, you're like the manliest dude in a forum about plastic spacemen and metal wizards, you're totally some badass tough guy! Good job, hero!

Rossko wrote:http://www.badassoftheweek.com/voytek.html

Cool article

For anyone just skimming this thread (since it got moved to the WHFB forum) page 4 is win as are any references to Wojtek, which I believe is the same bear as the one in the article Rossko linked to, just with a different spelling (thanks to Genosaurer for first bringing it up!).

Glad to see some people enjoying the article, he's one of my favorite internet writers. Also skimmed through the thread a bit and saw I wasn't the only one thinking about Wojtek(or Voytek).

But back on topic, I think Da Butcha said it best.

This mini does evoke feelings of disgust and regret that such abuse of animals was once, and in some places, still is commonplace in the world. It is well-documented, for example, that in Victorian London pigeons were sold tied to a string in the streets for the entertainment of children. I think this miniature was created with this purpose in mind. GW has stated that the collector's range was created to allow the miniature designers a creative outlet, perhaps because GW has rigid policies on what is and what is not acceptable for "shelf" sculpts.

The collector's range, then, is not a for profit line, maybe? People do complain about GW sometimes, but it seems they're doing this sort of thing "for the fans"

So, is this art in miniature?

(Well, I said all that, but I'm totally using this mini for a lvl 4 wizard)