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sebster wrote:

Albatross wrote:I'm sure Iran, Burma, Turkmenistan and North Korea are also cool places to visit. Countries with awful human rights records tend to have interesting architecture.

Funny thing is, it isn’t until you go there that you start to learn a country is more than the stories you see on the BBC. I honestly thought going to China I would somehow see people oppressed by their government, but it isn’t like that. Having had my perceptions changed it drove me to read more, and actually understand how totalitarian states work. I’ve got a much less simplistic view of non-democratic countries now, because I was willing to travel.

Human rights in China are important, and we should all support pro-Democracy movements in China to whatever extent we’re capable. Shunning the country doesn’t help that at all.

But hey, it’s up to you.

I'm not sure I care for your patronising tone. Obviously I know that it's not as simple as 'China bad, UK good' - that doesn't change the fact that I would not be comfortable spending my money in a country which has such crushing poverty in certain areas. The actions of the Chinese government, in collusion with overseas trading partners, has meant that it's possible to earn much less than $1 an hour there. That's the price of 'engaging' with China. Perhaps if large western multinationals (and the west in general) weren't so eager to do business with them, the Chinese might realise they need to get their house in order. Or they might not. I don't particularly care, I just don't want to go there.

I'm glad you had a nice holiday though.

ShumaGorath wrote:

mattyrm wrote:lol. Where is that? Afghanistan or Middlesbrough?

I thought Middlesbrough was in afghanistan?

Afganhistan isn't that bad.

Albatross wrote:I'm not sure I care for your patronising tone.

Didn't mean to sound patronising, sorry if it came off that way. I could have taken a moralising tone from your posts but gave you the benefit of the doubt, could you return the favour?

Obviously I know that it's not as simple as 'China bad, UK good' - that doesn't change the fact that I would not be comfortable spending my money in a country which has such crushing poverty in certain areas. The actions of the Chinese government, in collusion with overseas trading partners, has meant that it's possible to earn much less than $1 an hour there. That's the price of 'engaging' with China.

Sort of. I do agree that trade should only be undertaken with companies following approved trade practices.

But I'm not really sure what that has to do with a walking tour of Shanghai.

Perhaps if large western multinationals (and the west in general) weren't so eager to do business with them, the Chinese might realise they need to get their house in order. Or they might not.

The 'not' is a lot more likely than the 'might'. Isolating an economy is unlikely to drive democratic reforms, the opposite is much more likely. With increasing trade with the West living standards in China are improving.

There's also the issue that much of China's problems stem from corruption in corporate and government, something that is unlikely to improve by simply closing them off.

I don't particularly care, I just don't want to go there.

Which, like I said before, is up to you. It just isn't as much of a moral position as you claime

sebster wrote:The 'not' is a lot more likely than the 'might'. Isolating an economy is unlikely to drive democratic reforms, the opposite is much more likely. With increasing trade with the West living standards in China are improving.

..For some people. Opening up trade links with the west has forced chinese companies to be more competetive, and there's evidence that wages have plumetted in the manufacturing sector. The fact that millionaires (and billionaires) are being created is probably cold comfort to a factory worker living in a cramped dormitory on starvation wages, with a temporary contract that can be cancelled at pretty much any time and no possibility of unionising.

Sebster, I'm not moralising. I'm not telling people what to do or think. What I AM saying is that TO ME, it seems a little gauche to spend a few grand flying to China, staying in a hotel and seeing the (government approved) 'sights' when there are so many poverty-stricken people there. It's the same reason I wouldn't go to Africa or pretty much all of south-east Asia on 'holiday'. I don't judge anyone who does it, though. That's their business.

This is no different then a company hiring an attractive "secretary" during a business negotiation .
She just sits there and smile , does she really know anything? who knows, but thats not the purpose :3

A buddy of mine was just at a medical conference in China where the 'famous Johns Hopkins Doctor' was an American actor.

Now that's scary.

Was he called Dr Kildare?

Lot of strikes happening in China now.

Huh. Never expected the white guy to have the nickname Token.

Albatross wrote:..For some people. Opening up trade links with the west has forced chinese companies to be more competetive, and there's evidence that wages have plumetted in the manufacturing sector.

I'd be really interested in seeing that evidence. Everything I’ve heard is quite the opposite.

The fact that millionaires (and billionaires) are being created is probably cold comfort to a factory worker living in a cramped dormitory on starvation wages, with a temporary contract that can be cancelled at pretty much any time and no possibility of unionising.

Yeah, working conditions are harsh. As the labour force continues to improve their skills that will improve, as workers are better able to negotiate their salaries that will improve. The improvement won't be helped based on whether or not we go there for a holiday.

Sebster, I'm not moralising.

Yeah, I said your post could be interpreted that way but I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and asked for the same in return.

I'm not telling people what to do or think. What I AM saying is that TO ME, it seems a little gauche to spend a few grand flying to China, staying in a hotel and seeing the (government approved) 'sights' when there are so many poverty-stricken people there. It's the same reason I wouldn't go to Africa or pretty much all of south-east Asia on 'holiday'. I don't judge anyone who does it, though. That's their business.

You're making some huge assumptions about travel in China and about how I travelled in China. I didn’t stay in a single hotel the whole time I was there (although my friend and I debated staying at the Marriot for one night, just so we could steal some new towels  ). I stayed with people I knew, or in hostels.

Second up, your assumption that Western travellers go to Government approved sights is just wrong. The only controls on Chinese movement are between provinces, once you’re in Shanghai you’re free to move anywhere you want. Not that you need to go far to see the level of poverty – unlike most Western countries there’s no geographical split within a city between rich and poor, high rise apartments will sit right next to squalid dumps. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about when I talk about assumptions being dashed as soon as you arrive in country, it’s the value of going to a place instead of just reading about it.

Would you reject travelling to India on the same grounds? Lots of poor people there as well.

Eh, I make that much a night for doing the same thing for older men. I don't need the chinese.

All prostitute jokes aside, that's amazing. Hopefully they don't find out that these guys are totally losers

I want to be the CEO of a International Tennis-ball company.

sebster wrote:

Albatross wrote:..For some people. Opening up trade links with the west has forced chinese companies to be more competetive, and there's evidence that wages have plumetted in the manufacturing sector.

I'd be really interested in seeing that evidence. Everything I’ve heard is quite the opposite.

Taken from No Logo by Naomi Klein ( ):
Labor groups agree that a living wage for an assembly-line worker in China would be approximately US87 cents an hour....those who manufacture for the most prominent and richest brands in the world are still refusing to pay workers in China the 87 cents that would cover their cost of living, stave off illness and even allow them to send a little money home to their families. A 1998 study of brand-name manufacturing in the Chinese special economic zones found that Wal-Mart, Ralph Lauren, Ann Taylor, Esprit, Liz Claiborne, Kmart, Nike, Adidas, J.C. Penney and the Limited were only paying a fraction of that miserable 87 cents - some were paying as little as 13 cents an hour.
...after which follows a break-down of the collected sweatshop data, which for obvious reasons I am unable to reproduce here - but it's fairly heartrending.

The fact that millionaires (and billionaires) are being created is probably cold comfort to a factory worker living in a cramped dormitory on starvation wages, with a temporary contract that can be cancelled at pretty much any time and no possibility of unionising.

Yeah, working conditions are harsh. As the labour force continues to improve their skills that will improve, as workers are better able to negotiate their salaries that will improve. The improvement won't be helped based on whether or not we go there for a holiday.

Hmm. That seems to be based on the idea that things are just going to magically get better. Large multinationals outsource their manufacture and assembly to foreign contractors because it's cheap. If it ceases to be cheap (financially or politically, as in the case of Burma) then they'll take their business elsewhere - it happened in the Philipines, Taiwan, Sri Lanka... where would they go next? North Korea? It's not such a daft idea - after all, I'm sure that not many people expected large companies to get into bed with the Chinese 20 years ago. In the types of processing plants we're discussing, unionising is banned.

Sebster, I'm not moralising.

Yeah, I said your post could be interpreted that way but I gave you the benefit of the doubt, and asked for the same in return.

Just making it clear that this is how I feel personally - I don't expect anyone to feel the same, neither do I particularly care if they do or don't.

I'm not telling people what to do or think. What I AM saying is that TO ME, it seems a little gauche to spend a few grand flying to China, staying in a hotel and seeing the (government approved) 'sights' when there are so many poverty-stricken people there. It's the same reason I wouldn't go to Africa or pretty much all of south-east Asia on 'holiday'. I don't judge anyone who does it, though. That's their business.

You're making some huge assumptions about travel in China and about how I travelled in China. I didn’t stay in a single hotel the whole time I was there (although my friend and I debated staying at the Marriot for one night, just so we could steal some new towels  ). I stayed with people I knew, or in hostels.

Um, I didn't say that YOU stayed in fancy hotels and such, just that I wouldn't. But when I DO go on holiday, I like to stay in a nice hotel - I wouldn't be comfortable doing that in the third world, or in China for that matter. Call it British imperialist guilt!

Second up, your assumption that Western travellers go to Government approved sights is just wrong. The only controls on Chinese movement are between provinces, once you’re in Shanghai you’re free to move anywhere you want. Not that you need to go far to see the level of poverty – unlike most Western countries there’s no geographical split within a city between rich and poor, high rise apartments will sit right next to squalid dumps. That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about when I talk about assumptions being dashed as soon as you arrive in country, it’s the value of going to a place instead of just reading about it.

Would you reject travelling to India on the same grounds? Lots of poor people there as well.

Probably. That and the fact I've heard some pretty awful horror stories about corruption and sexual assault (amongst other things) from friends who've been there. Also, I have a journalist friend who works in China, who had a colleague go missing after he wrote an 'unflattering' article about local Communist Party officials. That's coloured my view a little, to be honest. I hear things like that and just think 'gak hole, not going there.'

It's awesome how a new pair of Nike's can reach upwards of $100's of dollars when it costs Nike 13 cents/hour in labor.

Now imagine what they'd cost if they were made in the US by someone getting paid $7.50/hour. Oh well, at least they wouldn't have "Made in China" stamped on them.

Must also be a reason that Polaris snowmobiles and atv's are junk compared to Arctic Cat and Honda. Oh that's right, the Polaris drive train (excepting the transfer cases themselves) are all manufactured in China.

Hmm, $300/week to be someone I'm not in China? No thanks. As Alby said, maybe for $3,000 per week but not a penny less and I'd still feel horrible about it.

Exactly, Fate. My conscience DEFINITELY has a price, but $300 isn't it!

Albatross wrote:Taken from No Logo by Naomi Klein ( ):
Labor groups agree that a living wage for an assembly-line worker in China would be approximately US87 cents an hour....those who manufacture for the most prominent and richest brands in the world are still refusing to pay workers in China the 87 cents that would cover their cost of living, stave off illness and even allow them to send a little money home to their families. A 1998 study of brand-name manufacturing in the Chinese special economic zones found that Wal-Mart, Ralph Lauren, Ann Taylor, Esprit, Liz Claiborne, Kmart, Nike, Adidas, J.C. Penney and the Limited were only paying a fraction of that miserable 87 cents - some were paying as little as 13 cents an hour.
...after which follows a break-down of the collected sweatshop data, which for obvious reasons I am unable to reproduce here - but it's fairly heartrending.

That says pay is cheap, which is certainly true. Your claim was that wages are getting lower, which I found extremely doubtful.

Hmm. That seems to be based on the idea that things are just going to magically get better. Large multinationals outsource their manufacture and assembly to foreign contractors because it's cheap.

Cheap labour is a factor, but it’s worth noting that there are plenty of places where labour is cheaper than China. The security and efficiency with which capital can be brought into the country, and the level of infrastructure and government support are also important factors. As these improve, and continue to improve productivity grows, and that forces up the price of labour. It is a long road, but it is the only road.

Just making it clear that this is how I feel personally - I don't expect anyone to feel the same, neither do I particularly care if they do or don't.

Fair enough.

Um, I didn't say that YOU stayed in fancy hotels and such, just that I wouldn't. But when I DO go on holiday, I like to stay in a nice hotel - I wouldn't be comfortable doing that in the third world, or in China for that matter. Call it British imperialist guilt!

Yeah, for a comfortable holiday China would be about the worst choice you could make.

Probably. That and the fact I've heard some pretty awful horror stories about corruption and sexual assault (amongst other things) from friends who've been there. Also, I have a journalist friend who works in China, who had a colleague go missing after he wrote an 'unflattering' article about local Communist Party officials. That's coloured my view a little, to be honest. I hear things like that and just think 'gak hole, not going there.'

Yeah, those things are certainly true. There are chronic problems with corruption in China, as there tends to be in any non-democratic country.

sebster wrote:

Albatross wrote:Taken from No Logo by Naomi Klein ( ):
Labor groups agree that a living wage for an assembly-line worker in China would be approximately US87 cents an hour....those who manufacture for the most prominent and richest brands in the world are still refusing to pay workers in China the 87 cents that would cover their cost of living, stave off illness and even allow them to send a little money home to their families. A 1998 study of brand-name manufacturing in the Chinese special economic zones found that Wal-Mart, Ralph Lauren, Ann Taylor, Esprit, Liz Claiborne, Kmart, Nike, Adidas, J.C. Penney and the Limited were only paying a fraction of that miserable 87 cents - some were paying as little as 13 cents an hour.
...after which follows a break-down of the collected sweatshop data, which for obvious reasons I am unable to reproduce here - but it's fairly heartrending.

That says pay is cheap, which is certainly true. Your claim was that wages are getting lower, which I found extremely doubtful.

Well, if they aren't allowed to unionise and therefore bargain for better pay and conditions, then a pay-freeze operates in basically the same way as a pay-cut if the cost of living goes up. In any case, those numbers are a result of successive undercutting by independent contractors - that's why the factories ended up there in the first place. In all honesty, I'm not sure what the situation is NOW regarding wages, but I'd be surprised if they had improved. These companies don't just decide to pay workers more out of the kindness of their hearts. My point was that opening China up for trade had drastically lowered worker's wages - at least, that's what I meant, even if I worded slightly incorrectly.
There is a lot more on this in the book, but I'm not really too excited about the idea of transcribing whole pages of it! If you don't already have it (you live in the US, yeah? I'm not sure it did too well over there.... ), then you should go and buy it. I think you'd enjoy it.