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insaniak wrote:The 'official' line is that Black Library material is canon... but that doesn't mean that it's 'correct'.

GW feel that the 40K universe is a big, confusing place. The stories told by the Black Library may be factual. They may tell of what might have happened. And they may tell only one version of the truth.

So it's all canon... but within that setting, it may not all be true.

This.

Except that what Goto writes couldn't have happened under any circumstances. Even the 40k universe has limits
BTW it is "canon". "Cannon" is the big ranged weapon

The codexes come before Black library stuff. But still, Graham Mcneill's books are more important than some codexes to me. Like the CSM book. How would I know anything about ahriman unless I read the book?

Jimsolo wrote:I love background material. (I hate using the word fluff. To me, it implies that the background for the game is unimportant, trivial, window dressing.)
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That is the point. The background of a fiction game like 40K is essentially trivial window dressing. Especially when it is cobbled together without any kind of internal logical consistency, simply to justify the production of particular codexes and models.

That's why we don't call history fluff.

To answer the other part of the OP's question, on the old GW website, there was one short story written by Dan Abnett that was about a successful Tyranid invasion. It was told from the perspective of a guardsmen and even featured Space Marines in a cameo appearance.

See, Kilkrazy, I can't understand that viewpoint. If you view the background as trivial window dressing, why do you play this? Wouldn't you find a game of tactical combat with no background to it to be more satisfying? The main draw that this game has is the rich backdrop upon which all of this combat takes place.

Jimsolo wrote:If you view the background as trivial window dressing, why do you play this? Wouldn't you find a game of tactical combat with no background to it to be more satisfying?

Considering the background to be trivial doesn't make it undesirable... You can enjoy the background without really considering it to be particularly important. And some players just ignore it completely.

The main draw that this game has is the rich backdrop upon which all of this combat takes place.

For some. For others, the main draw is that there are a lot of other people that play it... which can't be said for most other SciFi miniatures games. It's also about the only game out there at the moment on the same sort of scale... Pretty much everything else in 28mm-ish scale is more focussed on small skirmishes.

In general but not necessarily when they compare one army against another. For example, sometimes space marines are presented as taking inordinate casualties compared to the situation. I don't think a company of 100 who can lead an entire planetary invasion would lose any marines against a small Tau task force of about roughly the same number. IE Courage and Honour.

A single company cannot (logistically speaking) implement a planetary invasion all by themselves. They are merely the spearhead, destroying the strongest areas of resistance or critical locations held by the enemy while the IG do the *real* fighting.

Jimsolo wrote:See, Kilkrazy, I can't understand that viewpoint. If you view the background as trivial window dressing, why do you play this? Wouldn't you find a game of tactical combat with no background to it to be more satisfying? The main draw that this game has is the rich backdrop upon which all of this combat takes place.

I play it because it is a widely played tactical SF wargame which provides a lot of opportunities for modelling and conversions.

The fluff is for fun, I don't take it at all seriously.

I have the opposite viewpoint. I take background seriously, a game is an RPG for me, with my character being a whole army
Not that I hate painting, modelling or tactical challenges mind you.

Ya, must be hard for you to moderate a forum that you have no interest in

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Ya, must be hard for you to moderate a forum that you have no interest in

Not taking something seriously and having no interest in something are 2 very different things, mind you.

Besides, having no interest in the topic actually helps to maintain imartiality, as opposed to impeding it.


And just so I'm not busted for assisting in the further derailing of this thread, my approach to 40k is thus: I enjoy the game, I like the fluff, but recognise that, ultimately, it's just the polish on a game system.

The only difference between d20 Modern 3.5, d20 Future 3.5, D&D 3.5, Call Of Cthulhu 3.5, Dragonmech, et al. is the fluff. The GAME portion of all of these are EXACTLY the same, as they run on the same system, just with different paintjobs and aesthetic bits and bobs glued to them. It gives the action in the game flavor, but it doesn't change the underpinnings of the game.

Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to attack anyone. I was just curious. I just kind of thought that if someone didn't actually enjoy the background of the game, then playing 40k would be less enjoyable then, say, Axis and Allies. Or Risk. I'm not trying to be snarky, or mean, I was legitimately curious. What's more, I think that being less interested in one aspect of the game makes a moderator more impartial to moderating a forum concerning the game in general, and the area of their disinterest in specific.

Except that you should use your time on somthing that interests you.

Everyone should do something that interests them, it's to what degree should you take it?

Some people take it too seriously and proclaim that what is written is the only thing that matters, instead they should lighten up and accept its only a game.

Its a what if not a what is People use BL as an argument that others should be following the latter rather than the former.

Andrew

Jimsolo wrote: I just kind of thought that if someone didn't actually enjoy the background of the game, then playing 40k would be less enjoyable then, say, Axis and Allies. Or Risk.

If you're not interested in the background, that leaves you comparing games solely on the basis of the rules. In which case, you're still going to prefer the game that does what you want the game to do...

So if you're after a unit-based, 28mm-ish miniature wargame, 40K is going to be preferable to Risk.

I wonder. I think GW is at a point now were the "fluff" as some call it is becoming a serious part of their income. Were I'm from codexes cost $35. HH books are bestsellers. Abnett sells well. And there seems to be a push for more expansion books such as Apocalypse (I think there's two of those actually), Cityfight, Battle missions. I think they still make more from models by far but printed material is becoming a very big deal to them. Back when Goto was hired it wasn't but now they realize they need to tighten their editorial control of what's become a profitable publishing house (and so fired him. they did fire him right?)

Emperors Faithful wrote:A single company cannot (logistically speaking) implement a planetary invasion all by themselves. They are merely the spearhead, destroying the strongest areas of resistance or critical locations held by the enemy while the IG do the *real* fighting.

Of course there was the time 30 termies cleared an entire planet of genestealer infestation. 6 Remained by the end. Go go Deathwing powers ACTIVATE!

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cloud_Runner

Brings a tear to the eye

This occured on a Plains world. A DA recruiting world in fact. It's a bit easier to cleanse a genestealer infestation with only 30 termies on a Plains world than it is to do so on a Hive World. Just saying.


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Though Cloud Runner does sound pretty cool.

They should absolutely be considered canon, infact it is a decent way to advance the timeline in 40k to an extent. My problem is when certain authors start trashing entire space marine chapters and trotting out every special character there is while rewriting some of their history in the process... yes James Swallow, I am looking at you.

G'day Overmind...

I was going to pitch in one the Black Library thing, but others have said more elequently, and with a lot more words the same thing.

So I'll just tell you what I think instead. If you like it, its canon, if you don't, ignore it. I think Killkrazy said it best when he said nothing is Canon.

That being said, I read the Horus books and lots of the other ones and I love them. I don't mind if everynow and again an author uses computer screens instead of freaky servitors and sometimes when someone needs light they use a torch instead of an Electroflambeaux. Either way its a big and ignorant universe and no one knows for sure what is right or wrong, thats kind of the point to 40k!

Oops, I said I wasn't going to do that didnt I?

Anyway, your second part of the question...Tyranid invasions in books. I would suggest the Graham Mcneil books that follow Uriel Ventris and the Ultramarine 4th company. They cover the invasion of Tarsis Ultra and I reckon they're great. They're what made me get Ultramarines, 4th company, and conversely they are what made me get a bunch of Stealers for a future Tyranid horde!

Finally, Uriel is awesome, and not a ... oh, I don't want to say that word now because I got bunted once for pretending to say something similar...

So, Uriel is very selective about who he goes down on...there, I said something worse, but didn't swear!

Anyway, forget canon, just read and keep what you enjoy, let nerds fight over whose imaginary story is better...as my old hisory professor used to say, save canon for the Cannons!

See what I did there?

I didn't so much as see it as get hit smack in the face by it.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Except that you should use your time on somthing that interests you.

It does interest me. I just don't take it seriously. I treat the 40K fluff as a bit of a joke, and I don't think anything is 'canon' which is the original point of the thread.

I play the game for the sake of playing a game, and the modelling. I also play a lot of historical games.

Well then, you can consider yourself one of the smart ones!

I had prizes around here somewhere...?


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Oh, that's how you add those little face thingys! :0



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Oh, I guess that one doesnt work!

CrazyThang wrote:

Emperors Faithful wrote:A single company cannot (logistically speaking) implement a planetary invasion all by themselves. They are merely the spearhead, destroying the strongest areas of resistance or critical locations held by the enemy while the IG do the *real* fighting.

Of course there was the time 30 termies cleared an entire planet of genestealer infestation. 6 Remained by the end. Go go Deathwing powers ACTIVATE!

http://wh40k.lexicanum.com/wiki/Cloud_Runner

Brings a tear to the eye

Holy Native American! People kept saying DA were Natives but I never understood why. Now I do. However they seemed to have been retconned as typical Britich white guys now.

I view it akin to myths and legends. Namely, I recognise what's a cool story, but it doesn't all have to fit together perfectly. So if in one myth lasguns fire plasma, and in another they fire lasers, it's just two different interpretations of events.

For a fluff explanation of it, the plasma was leaked propaganda. The public doesn't need to know HOW the lasguns work. What they need to know is that the guard will give their all for the Imperium. So it really doesn't matter if they fire plasma, lasers, or kittens.

Plasma guns fire plasma. Lasgun fire las-whatever. That's not interpretation, that's common sense.

Though if they fired kittens that'd be cool.

KamikazeCanuck wrote:Holy Native American! People kept saying DA were Natives but I never understood why. Now I do. However they seemed to have been retconned as typical Britich white guys now.

I don't think it's a retcon so much as that story only being a fragment of the fluff. The world on which that takes place is only one world from which the Dark Angels recruited.

Emperors Faithful wrote:Plasma guns fire plasma. Lasgun fire las-whatever. That's not interpretation, that's common sense.

Though if they fired kittens that'd be cool.

Plasma guns fire a lump of plasma at the enemy at the potential cost of the wielder's life, while Lasguns focus far weaker plasma tech into a laser beam, which is far weaker than that of Plasma guns, but still effective.

See what I did there?

No.