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Forget mark of khorne, you'll want Tzeench. Khorne doesn't work well with the way ranks fight now. (for your block units at least(

...why not? They have Frenzy. That is +1A for the first rank, which will be 10-wide for the Horde rule. Meaning, he gets 2A per model in the first rank and two additional ranks of 1A each. That is fantastic! Mark of Tzeentch only helps with AHW/Shield 6+ Parry save - reducing it to a 5+. That, however, is not nearly as killy of a unit, imo, just a tarpit.

What about this list including Wulfrik the Wanderer and a small unit of marauders to go with him? I dropped the shaggoth to add him, since I've already worked out a trade for 10 cold one bodies and want to keep at least 9 dragon ogres in the list to take advantage of them.

Chaos Lord, Chaos Runesword, Helm of Many Eyes, Charmed Shield, MoK- 305
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Necrotic Phylactery, Infernal Puppet, Enchanted Shield- 320
Sorcerer, Lvl 1, Black Tongue- 135
Exalted Hero, BSB, Blasted Banner, Shield, MoK- 195
Wulfrik the Wanderer- 185

60 Marauders, Great Weapons, Mus, Std, MoK- 342
40 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 242
40 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 242
20 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 142

5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105

3 Dragon Ogres, Additional Hand Weapons- 219
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231

Total- 2999

Is 60 too large for the unit with the general and BSB? I also switched them over to great weapon, since with that many bodies, it shouldn't matter if they're going first or second and it'd be nice to have the high strength attacks in later rounds of combat.

I like this list, since it can be done with exactly 10 boxes of marauders, 2 boxes of marauder horsemen, and the 10 cold ones with a box of black orcs plus heroes. Not bad, not bad at all!

Hi guys,

Can I get a few votes for the shaggoth vs. wulfrik the wanderer with a small unit of marauders to come on from behind? I am open to either one, but need some help deciding.

I should be picking up the first box of marauders next week

Thanks!!

Well, today I decided "What was I thinking!? A marauder / dragon ogre themed list with no shaggoth???"

So, here it is again, back to its former glory, with a slight tweak to the heroes to get a level 2 upgrade for the sorcerer, a shield for the sorcerer lord, and more survivable BSB, at the cost of some slight killiness from the lord and BSB (but they're really killy, anyway!).

3000
Chaos Lord, Sword of Anti-Hero, Helm of Many Eyes, Shield, MoK- 290
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Infernal Puppet, Charmed Shield- 310
Sorcerer, Lvl 2, Black Tongue- 170
Exalted Hero, BSB, Necrotic Phylactery, Enchanted Shield, MoK- 165

50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105

3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, Great Weapon- 285

Total- 2999

2500
Chaos Lord, Sword of Anti-Hero, Helm of Many Eyes, Shield, MoK- 290
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Infernal Puppet, Charmed Shield- 310
Sorcerer, Lvl 2, Black Tongue- 170
Exalted Hero, BSB, Necrotic Phylactery, Opal Amulet, Enchanted Shield, MoK- 180

50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105

3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231

Total- 2498

RiTides wrote:
3000
Chaos Lord, Sword of Anti-Hero, Helm of Many Eyes, Shield, MoK- 290
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Infernal Puppet, Charmed Shield- 310
Sorcerer, Lvl 2, Black Tongue- 170
Exalted Hero, BSB, Necrotic Phylactery, Enchanted Shield, MoK- 165

50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105

3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
3 Dragon Ogres, Great Weapons- 231
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, Great Weapon- 285

Total- 2999

I've been watching this thread progress and I applaud you for sticking with SO many drogres and a shaggy to match. Looking at the rest of the list - powerful magic phase using the new book, incredibly mean marauder bricks - I think you'll be able to make up for those slightly-less-optimal-but-still-killy choices. I guess two things:

- I think ahw is a better way to go on the drogres, or at least on 2 of 3 units. My gw drogres never did anything, even against small armored units they should have butchered, because WS4 sucks. 12 S5 attaks + 3 S5 stomps should help them get their smash on, and having 1 with gw means modeling variety and also useful for those rare knights or whatever. On the shaggy, he might as well keep the gw, particularly if you're using the gw model. Otherwise I kinda think ahw is better there too

- I still don't like the black tongue. With the brutality of 8th then fine, I guess tongue + puppet makes it a little more worth the 85 points + vulnerable support caster + support caster item allotment + comp hit + sports hit, but I still don't really think so.

Awesome to see all those drogres out and about, I hope they do you proud when you get some games in.

- Salvage

Nice to see DOrges present heh, I've always thought they were a fun unit but just didn't fit my tastes in particular...the new rules are making things like them hit like beasts. It seems like a fairly solid list, overall between all the killy and hordes of marauders with the DOgres and Shaggoth to lay down the pain on heavy armor. My only changes I would do in particular on the characters is maybe change up the Lord slightly, I don't like that sword specifically against heroes as it doesn't always get its use but that's a personal thing. I would drop it for the +1 Str sword and Dragonhelm- half the benefit of the old sword vs characters (and 6 str 6 attacks are still crazy anyways) and it improves his armor to 2+. I kind of wanted to take the sorcerer before as well for black tongue in my list but couldn't see a good place to free the points, but I may now heh. Still not sure about level 2 since he will be hurting himself if he uses it and is close to death after.

Also what lores would this list be taking? Since you got two sorcs you can get some variety with death and shadow, shadow and heavens (boy that sounds wierd lol), etc. If I went with the level one sorc hero I would probably go heavens and just grab the basic spell- hex that reducing shooting hits by 1 and requires a 4+ to shoot if it doesn't use BS (cannons!) to offer cover to the big monster guys.

Wow, great feedback, guys! What about this?

3000
Chaos Lord, Chaos Runesword, Helm of Many Eyes, Shield, MoK- 310
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Infernal Puppet, Charmed Shield- 310
Exalted Hero, BSB, Necrotic Phylactery, Enchanted Shield, MoK- 165

58 Marauders, GWs, Full Command, MoK- 340
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
7 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 135
7 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 135

3 Dragon Ogres, AHWs- 219
3 Dragon Ogres, AHWs- 219
4 Dragon Ogres, GWs- 308
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, AHW- 275

Total- 3000

I decided that if I'm not taking black tongue (and I think you're right about that, Boss_Salvage!) then I don't really want that extra caster. How do the character load-outs look now? I'd like to fit in a ward save somewhere for them, too...

I have the first unit of marauders at 58 is that I was thinking to make them a 5-wide, 12 rank unit with the lord and BSB. They can jam anything else up and the other two units of marauders can hit the sides... and with the lord in there, hopefully they won't be losing combat against a normal block, anyway. I'd like to make them 60, but they won't fit in the deployment zone once the Lord and BSB go in if I do

With the points from the small caster I added the 4th GW dragon ogre, added marauders to the main block, and added in 4 more marauder horsemen. I'd like to find the points for light armor, though! Hrm...

Yeah Ive played a few more games lately with my WoC in 8th and because of how easy spells are to get off now, I seem to be using black tounge very rarely. Thinking about taking it out of my own lists now.

Well put on the weapon choices for the drogres Boss_Salvage, I never really thought about using them for taking out infantry, I always thought in my head that they would be used against fellow big boys! But looking back, it doesnt seem likely that that will be the scenario.

Im not sure if MoK is worth is when your only running 5wide... If youve seen my lists in the past (and my posts defending MoK) you know I love to play khorne and chop stuff up regardless of the other marks! However, this edition I dont think it would be worth it on a unit thats only 5 wide, due to the fact that the second rank isnt going to get that extra attack.

As always, Im glad to see the defensive items on the BSB!

Definitely liking the list, and infact, its giving me ideas about revising my own list!

Yes, I've definitely been convinced not to take black tongue now! Although I have swayed back and do think I want the additional caster, just with different gear. Good point about the MoK marauders going 5-wide... I'll probably plan to run them in horde formation for now.

Here's a slightly revised list:

3000
Chaos Lord, Chaos Runesword, Helm of Many Eyes, Enchanted Shield, MoK- 305
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Necrotic Phylactery, Infernal Puppet, Charmed Shield- 320
Sorcerer, Lvl 1, Power Familiar, Book of Secrets- 135
Exalted Hero, BSB, 4+ Ward Save Common Item, Shield, MoK- 200

50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105

3 Dragon Ogres, AHWs- 219
3 Dragon Ogres, AHWs- 219
3 Dragon Ogres, GWs- 231
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, AHW- 285

Total- 3000

I saw some advice from Boss_Salvage in another thread, and thought about adding the ward save item to the BSB. The only problem is there are only 2 magic shields in the main rulebook, and the sorcerer can only take a magic one, while the lord has to pay 10 points for a normal one (instead of 5 for a magic one). That leaves the BSB with a normal shield, so a 3+ save, but also a 4+ ward.

I definitely have a stronger offensive magic phase with this! I'd probably use the level 1 to give me a better chance of getting purple sun with my level 4 caster, and use book of secrets to get the level 1 spell from either shadow or heavens (probably heavens! to help stop cannons from shooting). I could take a dispel scroll instead of the power familiar... I imagine the eratta will probably say the book of secrets doesn't let the bearer generate a power dice anymore, but if it did, this setup would give me 2 extra power dice!

Wulfrik isn't very good, RiTides. I've actually tested him with a friends models, and he really is mediocre in combat for his points cost. His "I'll kill you" ability almost never comes into play since if your opponent is good, he'll never let Wulfrik touch him. Its best used as a distraction and for a misleading factor.

TBH, I think you should put Great Weapons on one of those Marauder blocks for an anvil. You have to consider that your big blocks really aren't there to kill that much, but to stay there and lock them up and grind them down, which flails don't do. TBH, I'd put GW's on all of the blocks, but it's up to you, mate.

Hmm, with the errata posted (here) it's not worth it to take Book of Secrets on a caster, and the enchanted shield is going to cost 15 points. So I need to juggle the character setups again!

I just wish I could figure out what I want the BSB to look like... he's the one that's giving me fits!

Karon- Well, I'm glad I decided not to take him! As for the great weapons, I'm definitely considering putting them in one of the blocks. If so, I'd like to bump the numbers of that block up to 60 if possible.

Ya, I personally dont understand why they did the points value rules for the common magic items... its going to give the new armies a tad bit of an advantage in that area.

And yes, the beloved Book of Secrets is beyond worthless now. No auto dice, and no channeling... Power Familiar it is!

Heh, I miscalculated by 10 points above (Shaggoth is 275 with AHW, not 285)! So I actually can take the exact same list with the enchanted shield at 15 points . Also changing book of secrets to third eye of tzeentch.

My only issue is what to do with the BSB? He's got a 45-point 4+ ward save right now. Is that the best way to eqiup him?

3000
Chaos Lord, Chaos Runesword, Helm of Many Eyes, Enchanted Shield, MoK- 315
Sorcerer Lord, Lvl 4, Necrotic Phylactery, Infernal Puppet, Charmed Shield- 320
Sorcerer, Lvl 1, Power Familiar, Third Eye of Tzeentch- 135
Exalted Hero, BSB, 4+ Ward Save Common Item, Shield, MoK- 200

50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
50 Marauders, Flails, Mus, Std, MoK- 292
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105
5 Marauder Horsemen, Flails, MoK- 105

3 Dragon Ogres, AHWs- 219
3 Dragon Ogres, AHWs- 219
3 Dragon Ogres, GWs- 231
Dragon Ogre Shaggoth, AHW- 275

Total- 3000

Possibly... mind you he doesnt get parry with his frenzy so hes got a 3+/4+... just make sure you shut down any spells that can pick him out, cause you really cant afford to let him die.

Question - with an init of 7, is it worth taking the Helm of Many Eyes and running the risk of stupidity?

It might be worth it. WoC have a good ld and as far as I know (I haven't gotten my book in the mail yet) having a BSB allows a re-roll on all ld based tests. So I guess you need to figure out what are the odds of failing a ld test twice in a row.

I included Helm of Many Eyes so that he'd have a good chance of re-rolling his "to hit" rolls (ASF + higher initiative gives you the re-rolls).

Unfortunately, I'm seeing so many people putting WoC right at the top of the "food chain" so to speak as far as 8th edition armies go, that I want to wait on starting this to see if that's the case. I hate having a top-tier army, as I experienced this in 40k 3rd edition with black templars when nobody wanted to play me . Not an experience I want to repeat!

Even though I think this list would be fair, and the theme is cool, getting those kinds of comments were really discouraging. So I'll put it on hold for now and enjoy my trees, and then if it looks like WoC isn't really the cream of the crop, I might go for it in a few months' time.

Heh, I hear yah, they do have alot of downsides though (well at least the way I play them!) and right now Im noticing Empire/Dwarves being pretty ridiculous! Regardless, Ive been playing my Orcs for 8th as its just much more enjoyable!

Orcs are tempting me now, butterthepug... very, very tempting... especially as I'm reading a book called "Orcs" (by Stan Nicholls).

Anyway, I'll stop commenting on this thread since I'm going to put the project on hold, but don't be suprised to see a squig-heavy orc list pop up soon!!!