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Endgame wrote:
I think the key for prayers is only throwing a single die at them. Half the time you'll get them off, and does your opponent really want to throw only a single die at trying to dispel it? 33% of the time, the dispel will fail and the highest level wizard will lose concentration, giving you a huge advantage in the rest of the phase.

Most likely, I think they will let the prayers through that go on a single die. If you could manage to get 4 or 5 RiP spells in place by turn 2, your opponent isn't going to have the PD to dispel them all unless they sacrifice a magic phase. Either way, you're coming out ahead.

Well, that is certainly worth a consideration but even so I think the points are better spent on wizards that can dispell when it matters and usually will draw more dice. They also don't rely on setting the logistical framework into place. 4 or 5 RiP spells require 4 or 5 WP's...that is an unrealistically high investment especially when it needs wizards to make the most of it on top. Perhaps an AL and two WP's for three solid blocks could work though.

There are only two RiP prayers and one can only be cast on the unit with the WP and not every unit will be in combat at the same time. I think it is quite possible to selectively dispell those RiP's when it matters.

Shep wrote:Fleeing into range of the BSB while holding a musician is a sure thing, and it buys me a full extra turn of shooting at enemy fast stuff.

Just so that I fully understand you: You're moving up ahead of your line and then essentially bait and flee so that they fail the charge?

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
Well, that is certainly worth a consideration but even so I think the points are better spent on wizards that can dispell when it matters and usually will draw more dice. They also don't rely on setting the logistical framework into place. 4 or 5 RiP spells require 4 or 5 WP's...that is an unrealistically high investment especially when it needs wizards to make the most of it on top. Perhaps an AL and two WP's for three solid blocks could work though.

There are only two RiP prayers and one can only be cast on the unit with the WP and not every unit will be in combat at the same time. I think it is quite possible to selectively dispell those RiP's when it matters.

My assumption for Lords & Heros is:

1x Level 4 w/ Power Stone
1x Lector on War Altar
2x WPs
1x Level 2 w/ Rod of Power

Isn't the reroll attack rolls and wound rolls RiP as well -- its been a while since I've tried using that one. Either way, if you're running a Lector on Altar & 2 WPs for hatred in units, thats 3-4 dice / turn worth of spells -- which should leave you with at least 5-6 dice to cast spells with, with your wizards (assuming 2 dice carried over with rod of power). First turn, throw for 4+ ward saves, second turn throw for unbreakable units on WPs that got the ward save off. Lets say that you get lucky and get both unbreakable spells off on 1 die. Lets also say your opponent lets them go through so he doesn't risk losing his level 4 for dispel attempts against the rest of your power dice.

During your opponent's next magic phase, he needs to spend 2 PD to dispel which ever unbreakable he needs to get rid of, or else he risks not being able to cast. That should bring you to parity between PD and your DD. Doesn't sound like a bad deal to me.

Of course, there will be turns where you bomb your PD rolls and it puts you at a PD disadvantage, but no one says you have to play risky

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:

Shep wrote:Fleeing into range of the BSB while holding a musician is a sure thing, and it buys me a full extra turn of shooting at enemy fast stuff.

Just so that I fully understand you: You're moving up ahead of your line and then essentially bait and flee so that they fail the charge?

Yep. I haven't played since 6th edition, so i've forgotten some of this stuff. But if you just deploy on the back edge of the table, then M8 swifstriders get an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge. If they declare a charge and fail, they'll drop from a 16" march to a 5-6" move. So they will successfully charge the back row warmachines on 3 instead of 2.

Couple that with wanting to be shooting at short range as a preference with outriders, and it really makes vanguard good for them. If i get top of turn 1, i can vanguard out about 3" past the deployment zone, and get to shoot at long range, then after fleeing, it is impossible to move off-table, so i'll get to shoot at long range at something else maybe, depending on how far another unit marched. If I go second, I can still vanguard up a tiny bit, and then after the enemy units march move I'll get to throw 15 shots at short range. I'll still be able to safely flee away.

Of course, as often happens, my outriders can just get shot out of the saddle on turn 1. that isn't a problem unique to them. All fast cav can get taken down in the blink of an eye, especially with TLOS. I know they are working when they are getting prioritized like that.

I'll do bait and flee with knights as well, in a pinch. With the number of war machines i pack, buying one more turn to shoot at fast enemy units is worth putting the knights on the back burner for the early game. If they don't get charged, then they gain more options on the next turn, even some flank charges. If they do get charged, well, then i just stalled one enemy unit for a turn. It of course gets tricky when they get charged by a tiny little thing that they may not be able to beat without the charge, but certainly isn't worth fleeing from. Hopefully I'll be able to shoot those types of units before they get to do that.

For now, I'll be running a mix between halberdiers and knights. I really wanted to run a cav and warmachine only list. But it's become impossible to protect my level 4 wizard from certain armies that way, and also getting the right number of banners for blood and glory gets really tough. So my next series of games will have a 40x halb horde bunker for my wizard. It can shred any skimrmisher or light cav unit in quick order, and one reform makes it stubborn for a LONG time. I'm putting 20x greatswords in the list as well, they'll have the BSB. That way i don't have one block that has 3-4 breakpoints in it. You'll have to kill two stubborn re-rollable leadership 8 blocks and two characters to get me to my breakpoint. That should be reasonably difficult with 6 warmachines and a 10x knight unit roaming around, and 2x5 outriders as well.

If I got sick of the block infantry interaction, i think I'd take Balthasar Gelt. then I'd be free to be all cav. maybe one big 10x knight unit, and three 5x, to fill out banners. Turn the level 4 and the BSB into gelt, and just try and find spots where he can get hard cover. -2 to hit him and 3+ ward should keep him up for as long as he needs to be up... I hope

Endgame wrote:
Isn't the reroll attack rolls and wound rolls RiP as well

I think you're right, I wil have to look that one up.

Either way, if you're running a Lector on Altar & 2 WPs for hatred in units, thats 3-4 dice / turn worth of spells -- which should leave you with at least 5-6 dice to cast spells with, with your wizards (assuming 2 dice carried over with rod of power).

Hmm, the winds of magic are fickle. I realize the average is 7 but still...it isn't outlandish to get much less. Secondly, it is questionable whether you will be able or willing to save DD in the rod. If WP's still generate DD, I'm all with you. That alone would justify taking them. We'll hopefully know more tomorrow.

This notwithstanding, I see the usefulness in your suggestion. I'll have to give it a try one day. Oh, on a related note: Unbreakable is ace. I had one block of 35 Halberdiers with WP a little left of centre in the middle of the board charge a large unit of Clanrats and give them a good pounding. I was then charged in the flank by Rat Ogres and by a unit of 100 (!) Slaves on the other side, countercharged the Slaves with a Swordsmen detachment and the Ogres with Knights - all of which wouldn't have been possible had the Halberds not held out. An amazing combat, especially since I won and ran everyone down...

Shep wrote:
Yep. I haven't played since 6th edition, so i've forgotten some of this stuff. But if you just deploy on the back edge of the table, then M8 swifstriders get an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge. If they declare a charge and fail, they'll drop from a 16" march to a 5-6" move. So they will successfully charge the back row warmachines on 3 instead of 2.

But isn't there any opposition between the knights and the machines?

Does the vanguard move happen before or after you roll to see who goes first?


Automatically Appended Next Post:

Endgame wrote:
Isn't the reroll attack rolls and wound rolls RiP as well

I think you're right, I wil have to look that one up.

Either way, if you're running a Lector on Altar & 2 WPs for hatred in units, thats 3-4 dice / turn worth of spells -- which should leave you with at least 5-6 dice to cast spells with, with your wizards (assuming 2 dice carried over with rod of power).

Hmm, the winds of magic are fickle. I realize the average is 7 but still...it isn't outlandish to get much less. Secondly, it is questionable whether you will be able or willing to save DD in the rod. If WP's still generate DD, I'm all with you. That alone would justify taking them. We'll hopefully know more tomorrow.

This notwithstanding, I see the usefulness in your suggestion. I'll have to give it a try one day. Oh, on a related note: Unbreakable is ace. I had one block of 35 Halberdiers with WP a little left of centre in the middle of the board charge a large unit of Clanrats and give them a good pounding. I was then charged in the flank by Rat Ogres and by a unit of 100 (!) Slaves on the other side, countercharged the Slaves with a Swordsmen detachment and the Ogres with Knights - all of which wouldn't have been possible had the Halberds not held out. An amazing combat, especially since I won and ran everyone down...

Shep wrote:
Yep. I haven't played since 6th edition, so i've forgotten some of this stuff. But if you just deploy on the back edge of the table, then M8 swifstriders get an almost guaranteed turn 2 charge. If they declare a charge and fail, they'll drop from a 16" march to a 5-6" move. So they will successfully charge the back row warmachines on 3 instead of 2.

But isn't there any opposition between the knights and the machines?

Does the vanguard move happen before or after you roll to see who goes first?

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:But isn't there any opposition between the knights and the machines?

Does the vanguard move happen before or after you roll to see who goes first?

Yeah. The fast cav will be in the way. But you can't count on them not getting shot off the table in one turn.

Vanguard is before anyone knows who is going first.

FAQ is out.... some really good stuff for empire... mainly engineers and mortars getting majorly buffed. One engineer can just camp out in between 3-4 war machines and he can 'catch' the first misfire and fix it. Even for the rare war machines!

And the mortar has a strength 6 hole shot that does 3 wounds! As does the helstorm. An engineer parked next to two helblasters is VERY tempting now.