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Ok, I haven't used everything yet. And I haven't played in very large games. But there are quite a few 8th edition truisms that I have been discovering and then putting to the test. I have a split down the middle record while experimenting with units, which I think is actually pretty impressive considering how experimental I have been.

I'm going to list some general 8th edition truisms that I believe in, the discuss the empire specifics.

- Magic's return on investment has sky-rocketed. Its cheaper to buy in to a powerful magic phase, and some of the spells can really turn games around. I think most people that have a half dozen test games have seen this, but this is for the people that haven't. Particularly the unit buff spells have an amazing affect on empire style combat units. The sixth light lore spell was used to make a swordsman unit beat down a unit of bloodletters that had only taken glancing hits by mortar fire for example.

- Big blocks just don't break. I recently had a chaos knight unit with lord in a swordsman flank on the final few turns of the game. I had gained a victory point lead with some devastating shooting, and during the fighting, my steadfast swordsman kept a BSB with a sword of might alive long enough to finish off a battered chaos warrior unit. All while eating attacks from the chaos knights in the flank. The knights could not break free in time to swing the game.

- War machines are no joke. No partials and no guessing is not just a slight improvement. If you have the right amount of war machines in your army, then the specific types of units that they are good at killing are going to drop, barring really bad luck.

- BS based shooting is seemingly as bad if not worse than before. The terrain rules in practice don't block TLOS and they don't slow anyone down. But with D6+4 pieces, I was shooting into soft cover most of the time. As people get a little more comfortable moving towards trees and obstacles rather than avoiding them like the plague, then soft cover is going to be as rampant as the 4+ cover save in 40k. In other words. Expect everyone to have it and calculate your shooting effectiveness with it in play.

- Fancy light cavalry maneuvering/posturing/threatening has been nerfed significantly. Among the games I've played and observed, the charge baiting, redirecting and charge/march blocking has just been unusable. Also, the ballistic skill based shooting is suffering from this new abundance of terrain, and combat based fast cavalry is suffering from a lack of rank removal for a reasonable cost, and the steadfast rule is just crushing them. Warmachine crews being ineligible for shooting targets is really just another notch against them.

- Heavy cavalry has also been touched by the nerf bat. But manages to survive as a useful tool by aggressive armies. Good armor saves are still good, and supporting attacks can't be made to the flanks. Heavy cavalry has been used to good effect by charging a big block unit and holding it in place. They continue to win combats until their own big block can plug in to the front, hopefully stripping steadfast from the enemy unit. Cheap and small heavy cav units can perform this role as well as warmachine hunter (although likely to be intercepted by an equally cheap large block of infantry). Big huge blocks of cavalry can be used successfully as an unsubtle bludgeoning tool. They'll likely be hung up by steadfast a touch more than they'd like. One held charge to the front followed by a large infantry block counter charging their flank could pretty much lock even a 15 man cavalry unit out of the game. It would need support from infantry blocks.


Ok, all of that being considered... There are a couple of catagories of units that have just had my jaw drop to the floor in their performance. Here they are from most to amazing to least.

#1 25+ swordsmen are rock stars! Other armies might need a number higher than 25, but with 3x mortars dropping down on every other block unit that is moving towards the swordsmen, they'll be steadfast for ages. My block has been eating serious damage. Much more than should be allowed, and I am already becoming an expert on timing their breaking point. I have managed to double fail on an 8 once... So I will be running a very cheap general of the empire. The two functional parts of this block are the aforementioned mortar support and cheapish characters in the unit. It doesn't matter that you character isn't Archaon... they are just there to do a little light sweep up operation to the battered remains of whatever made it to you. The "make way" rules are VERY forgiving and characters can teleport all over the block to support flanks and rear.

#2 Spamming of non ballistic skill based shooting and magic. The spread of cannons for monsters/monstrous infantry/knights/chariots, mortars for infantry blocks, and magic for skirmishers and whatever else has just been reaping enemy models like wheat. As soon as a 'to hit' roll comes in to play however, the results just flip the other way. Outriders have been tried and are currently looking to be cut to make room for greatswords, and crossbows will definitely be taking a back seat to more large blocks of swordsmen, possibly even using halbardier detachments.

#3 The BSB. zomg. Re-rolling panic and tests to reform/restrain pursuit as well as the old fashioned break test has been intensely useful. Couple that with armor of meteoric iron and a sword of power and you end up with just enough gas to finish off the half strength stuff you end up fighting.

#4 Wizards. No one is taking magic defense right now as they try all of their offensive items and they figure out how their own dispel pool works. That won't last forever. I just recently managed to kill 6 flamers of tzeentch over three turns of magic with a level 2 light wizard with rod of power. 130 points to kill 210 points. I'm sure that guy won't leave home without something defensive in the future. But for now, I am loving the wizard. I just won't count on him for such amazing output once people get a little more respect for the new magic.

So, deploying far away, having a matchless shooting/magic phase and then locking down threats with steadfast blocks has been working. I've been losing because the techier units I've been trying have just not delivered (core knights and outriders in particular) I'm convinced I'm spending too much on ballistic skill shooting, when those points could be spent on stubborn infantry or magic/warmachines.

My next round of games are coming. And just to prove my theories I am going to take nothing but magic/war machines/fighty but cheap characters and 25% points in sowrdsmen (possibly halb detachments), then fill out with greatswords. I'll be back here to report any successes or failures.

Are you guys finding that the same is true for you?

I and other have found one thing in common with all armies in 8th edition. Every army can be composed of extreme cheese now

Odviously, this was possible in 7th, however it seemed alot harder with some armies. Now, it seems virtually any fantasy army is capable of some cheese (if not that smelly old rotten holey extreme cheese!). Granted, not everyone wants to play against your cheese, so if you constantly play your army with cheese, dont expect to see alot of friendly games. Odviosly your playing to win, but when you ruin someones hobby.

No one wants to play against 9 Empire Warmachines in a 2250... and no one wants to see HUNDREDS (and I dont mean 200) of night goblins that are stubborn across the board. I think it will be fun if both armies incorperate cheese. But you honestly shouldnt have to play like that all the time.

How have steam tanks gone?

2 of them in most games should be pretty brutal.

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:How have steam tanks gone?

2 of them in most games should be pretty brutal.

I am curious about the STanks myself - anyone used a pair yet? Any results?

em_en_oh_pee wrote:

Waaagh_Gonads wrote:How have steam tanks gone?

2 of them in most games should be pretty brutal.

I am curious about the STanks myself - anyone used a pair yet? Any results?

I think the issue with 2 Steam Tanks is that would put you about 40 points over the 25% limit at 2250.
Plus you wouldnt beable to get any of the other rare choices.

I am new to both Fantasy and the Empire so I could be wrong about a few things.

I dislike the Steam Tank because of how steam points are made, which effectively makes the model combat ineffective as soon as it takes wounds. To me it seems like a huge point sink that for the same price, I can put a large unit of Great Swords on that table that can be buffed by the Lore of Light, Metal, and/or Life , puts out more attacks, can handle damage better, and is just as stubborn.

I am going to try a Lvl 4 Wizard with the Lore of Life in the same army as a Steam Tank, maybe I can keep it working if I can keep giving it back wounds.

Shep, when you run your swordsmen, what do your blocks look like? I have been running units of 20 in the old 5 x 4 configuration, but recently got ahold of more models and I have been trying to decide to field them as a new unit or buff the two units of 20 I have.

I have also liked units of 10 Handgunners as detachments. I like to play my Empire as more reactive, so I pepper units as they come closer to me, tank charges with Swordsmen (while the Handgunners stand and shoot) and then counter charge with Knights, Flagellants, and or Greatswords.

Have the rules for prayers on 8th changed?

I ask because of the battle report in WD (Yes I know I should never believe it), in which the empire player (Mat Ward?) complained he never had enough magic dice to use any of his prayers. But they don't need dice!

Cheers

Andrew

Prayers are bound spells.

All Bound Spell need to be rolled for in the magic phase as if it was a spell with the casting level of the bound spell. Prayers are less reliable. I still take a Warrior Priest because it gives me Flagellants as core.

Mahu wrote:Prayers are bound spells.

All Bound Spell need to be rolled for in the magic phase as if it was a spell with the casting level of the bound spell. Prayers are less reliable. I still take a Warrior Priest because it gives me Flagellants as core.

So the rules have changed between editions?

Andrew

AndrewC wrote:

Mahu wrote:Prayers are bound spells.

All Bound Spell need to be rolled for in the magic phase as if it was a spell with the casting level of the bound spell. Prayers are less reliable. I still take a Warrior Priest because it gives me Flagellants as core.

So the rules have changed between editions?

Andrew

Lots of rules have changed, so much so, that it is better to not even consider how things worked in 7th.

Cheers, it just seems a bit stupid. Many items in the Empire treasury just got screwed becuse they are bound spells that previously were 'freebies' are now relatively useless.

The one advantage of prayers was that although they were low cost, they were automatically cast. Bummer.

Andrew

Bound spells and items just got stronger imo.

Sure they take power dice now, but they are going to start going off at a higher level, making them harder to dispell. Bound level 5 spells could almost always be popped on two dice, now it will probably take 3. Bound level 3 could be popped on one 2/3 of the time. Was a good change imo.

The steam tank seems really good still. Its got a serious price tag. But I envision using it in a much different way than before.

I have been deploying with blocks towards the center and warmachines on the outer flanks. I tend to cheat the blocks over to one side, and so i can intercept charges into my warmachines if I care. I've actually been allowing my warmachines to get charged since my blocks remain steadfast even if charged in the flank. I just "make way" my character over the the flank and start picking off the flanking unit.

Anyway. The blocks all have to stay together kinda because of the BSB and general. The steam tank is perfect to park over by the other artillery park. Its just a 300 point cannon that DESTROYS typical war machine hunters. As units end up charging my blocks, there is now an opening in the late turns for the steam tank to build up some steam (If he hasn't been getting wailed on) and then scrape off all the attacking units that got hung up on steadfast.

It isn't really competing with much for rare. The helblaster rolls to hit and so forget about it. In terrain-land it just doesn't put out. The helstorm is really swingy. At 2k I can fit one in in addition to the steam tank, but the mortar has so much more accuracy that the strength and armor modifier come out in the wash.

Mahu, swordsmen are as defenisve as it gets for state troops, so I am sure to stay 5 wide. That measn the 30 man block is deeper than it is wide. Thats ok, Flank charges from units that don't have their own ranks don't hurt at all now. Just an extra +1 CR for them.

On the handgunners by all means run them and get a feel for them. I have been running 10x outriders and 20x crossbowmen in every test game so far. I think you'll find what I have after a few games. People are getting soft cover, people are good at getting inside stand and shoot range with unstoppable marches. You'll get one round at long range/soft cover, and then one round at short range. Then you are exploded. If you think hitting on 6s once and then hitting on 4s once makes the unit as valuable as their points costs suggests, then go for it. I have been frustrated by both units in 6 straight games.

My 105 point outriders get 10 hits per game. That is just enough to kill a fast cav unit. But fast cav is seeming quite weak, and has been universally unpopular amongst the people I've got my test games in with. One of the reasons I am not trying to figure out how to counter fast cav, is because it doesn't really cause a big threat to block infantry based armies. They don't take away ranks, step up just desroys them. If they try and get a charge off on war machines then they eat a state troop charge or a steamtank charge. As the metagame starts to crystalize, its quite possible that different unit types will get popular. But right now its monsters/monstrous infantry/big blocks/war machines. Even my demon playing friend is starting to question his flamers of tzeentch. Not because they got any weaker, more because their favorite targets are starting to disappear or worse, step behind hard cover.

Some additional questions and thoughts:

Re: Swordsmen. I'm looking at running units of 20 as detachments of parent units of 40 spears and / or Halberds. Do you think the swordsmen need to be parent units to be effective? Given the power of buff spells, spears seem like a better large unit than swords, especially considering how frequently you don't get the parry ward saves.

Regarding Crossbows & Hand Gunners: With TloS, a detachment of Crossbows or Hand Gunners should be able to Stand and Shoot a charging Cavalry or Monstrous Creature from behind the parent unit. Do you think this will be valuable, or mostly unimpressive?

Have you tried Warrior Priests vs Captains? Captains seem to be the preferred choice with swordsmen, but I see a lot of reason to run with a Warrior Priest in Halberds, Great Swords, or Spears.

Have you used the rod of power? I think it will be key in surviving your opponent's magic phase while also allowing you to overpower your opponents phase, but haven't played an 8th ed game yet.

Endgame wrote:Re: Swordsmen. I'm looking at running units of 20 as detachments of parent units of 40 spears and / or Halberds. Do you think the swordsmen need to be parent units to be effective? Given the power of buff spells, spears seem like a better large unit than swords, especially considering how frequently you don't get the parry ward saves.

The only reason I even consider swordsmen over just massive blocks of halbardiers is that they just BARELY exceed their 20% cost increase in survivability. They only get their parry to the front, and can't parry stomps and impact hits. but the extra pip of armor and the situational parry along with ws4 make them just a little bit stickier. As far as using them as detachments, I would never do that. Its my hope that the detachment will counter-charge or supporting charge into a flank. And enemy units don't get supporting attacks for their flanks. Its a safer place to be, and since they can't parry me. Thats where I want my halbardiers to be.

A direct comparison between spears and halberds dies right on the table. Halbards against all comers are better by enough of a margin to just not worry about spears. Spears with shields might look to be a compromise between the halbardiers and the swordsmen, but i just don't like the trade. They certainly are not 20% more survivable than halbardiers. They are only 16% more survivable against strength 4 or lower. Which means that mathematically, halbs with no shields are actually more survivable... (they would have 20% more wounds) And with the rare exception of unarmored T3, the halbardiers can out dish the spears.

Endgame wrote:Regarding Crossbows & Hand Gunners: With TloS, a detachment of Crossbows or Hand Gunners should be able to Stand and Shoot a charging Cavalry or Monstrous Creature from behind the parent unit. Do you think this will be valuable, or mostly unimpressive?

If you did that, they'd have hard cover. However, getting detachment stand and shoot is easy. I'm just not happy with the result. 15 halbardiers on counter-charge are proving to do more damage to a charging block than 10 handgunners/crossbowmen standing and shooting.

Endgame wrote:Have you tried Warrior Priests vs Captains? Captains seem to be the preferred choice with swordsmen, but I see a lot of reason to run with a Warrior Priest in Halberds, Great Swords, or Spears.

Interesting. Since I've been using sworsdmen, and since my army needs a BSB I haven't gone there yet. But if I did switch over to halbs, its quite possible that the one turn of re-rolls and the extra dispel dice might be worth it.

Endgame wrote:Have you used the rod of power? I think it will be key in surviving your opponent's magic phase while also allowing you to overpower your opponents phase, but haven't played an 8th ed game yet.

Yeah its jsut been awesome hands down. I've storing 3 dice if my opponent didnt cast anything I really wanted to dispel, and i have been throwing 5 dice per spell which I have found has been the right number to get a high cast without needlessly risking a loss of control. On the turns when I get 8-9 on winds of magic, I tend to have 2 power dice left over, which roll right back to my dispel pool. The rod is very powerful with the new magic dice system.

Shep wrote:
The only reason I even consider swordsmen over just massive blocks of halbardiers is that they just BARELY exceed their 20% cost increase in survivability. They only get their parry to the front, and can't parry stomps and impact hits. but the extra pip of armor and the situational parry along with ws4 make them just a little bit stickier. As far as using them as detachments, I would never do that. Its my hope that the detachment will counter-charge or supporting charge into a flank. And enemy units don't get supporting attacks for their flanks. Its a safer place to be, and since they can't parry me. Thats where I want my halbardiers to be.

I was thinking of using the Detachment swords as roadblocks on the edge of a formation, as in earlier editions I rarely, if ever, get the flanking counter charge off as decent players always manage to setup a situation where I can't (or won't) take that charge. A 3 block formation using Great Swords, Halberds, & Swordsmen might look something like this:

SSSSS HHHHH GGGGG HHHHH SSSSS

This setup has more durability (I think) to flanking as a lot of models will plow through a 20 or less man Halbardier block, but hopefully less so a Swordsmen block.

Shep wrote:
A direct comparison between spears and halberds dies right on the table. Halbards against all comers are better by enough of a margin to just not worry about spears. Spears with shields might look to be a compromise between the halbardiers and the swordsmen, but i just don't like the trade. They certainly are not 20% more survivable than halbardiers. They are only 16% more survivable against strength 4 or lower. Which means that mathematically, halbs with no shields are actually more survivable... (they would have 20% more wounds) And with the rare exception of unarmored T3, the halbardiers can out dish the spears.

I agree all the way until you start mixing the number of (nearly) freely available buffs on the spears. I'm looking at running spears w/ a Warrior Priest and the Armor Piercing Banner 7 wide 6 deep. I'll also be running, likely, a level 4 Metal or Fire wizard and a level 2 beast wizards, which could end up buffing the unit with +2 armor or +1 to hit and +1S, and +1 T and Str. (Lets not even talk about the chance you might be able to get one of the lore of light buffs on the unit from the War Altar) . Now apply the above (with or without the spells) to both the spears and the halberds (7 wide, which is IMO a compromise between full horde and lots of ranks, and will likely be how I deploy state troops).

We get:

Spears, WP, AP banner, no spell buffs
vs T3 5++ save: 5.73 kills
vs T4 5++ save: 3.81 kills

Halbs, WP, AP banner, no spell buffs
vs T3 5++ save: 6.24 kills
vs T4 5++: 4.685 kills

Spears, WP, AP banner, +1 S +1 T Beasts spell:
vs T3 5++ save: kills
vs T4 5++ save: kills

Halbs, WP, AP banner, +1 S +1 T Beasts spell:
vs T3 5++ save: kills
vs T4 5++ save: kills

The Spears start to come ahead as you add more and more buffs to them. It gets really kind of sick when you add beasts spell 1 and flaming sword from lore of fire. At that point, I think the spears just start to cream the Halbs, but it requires you to have control over the magic phase. You also have the added durability of the spears, especially if you add the +2 arm spell from lore of metal (obviously you won't be able to stack all of these buffs, you'll need to pick and chose lore to suite your taste). Its the reason why I'm thinking of running one of each of spears and halbs -- one requires less buffing than the other for equal results, and you'll likely never be able to buff both at the same time.

Shep wrote:
If you did that, they'd have hard cover. However, getting detachment stand and shoot is easy. I'm just not happy with the result. 15 halbardiers on counter-charge are proving to do more damage to a charging block than 10 handgunners/crossbowmen standing and shooting.

Interesting. Maybe I just need to perfect getting the counter charge / flank charge going. Though with 2 detachments you could S&S and counter charge, but I'm not sure its worth 80 points to even try it.

Shep wrote:
Interesting. Since I've been using sworsdmen, and since my army needs a BSB I haven't gone there yet. But if I did switch over to halbs, its quite possible that the one turn of re-rolls and the extra dispel dice might be worth it.

Don't forget the unbreakable and ward prayers. Start with the ward prayer as your first casting on turn 1 -- You should be able to risk throwing 1 die at it. If it goes off, score, if not, its not the end of the world. Your opponent either won't dispel it (yay for later turns, as they will have to use PD to dispel it, weakening their attack) or they'll have to throw 1 or 2 dice at it. If they throw 1 at it, there is a chance they will roll a 1 or a 2 and break the concentration from their highest level wizard. If they throw 2 at it you really just burned their dispel dice Turn 2 you can throw unbreakable out there and see what they do -- if it goes off they are in the same bind as the ward spell, and now you're starting to build up a pile of remains in play spells that they probably won't try to clear off the table unless they want to sacrifice an entire magic phase to it.

Shep wrote:Yeah its jsut been awesome hands down. I've storing 3 dice if my opponent didnt cast anything I really wanted to dispel, and i have been throwing 5 dice per spell which I have found has been the right number to get a high cast without needlessly risking a loss of control. On the turns when I get 8-9 on winds of magic, I tend to have 2 power dice left over, which roll right back to my dispel pool. The rod is very powerful with the new magic dice system.

Excellent. Here is to hoping they don't change it too much then! Might be really nice with some power stones as well -- if you have a bad dispel phase where you burn all your dice, you can still keep the offensive pressure on with the boost from the stone.

Thats great stuff with the spears. I like the fact that they can eventually outpace halberds with the right kind of spells on them. COuld you edit your post to include the numbers with the bests spell. You left them out.

Getting the old fashioned triggered detachment counter-charge is still tough. But with steadfast, you actually have tie to declare a real charge later. I'm actually only really using detachments because they don't cause panic and because they can on miracle occasions, just destroy someone with a counter-charge. But really with steadfast, you can just absorb charges with bigger stuff, and then eventually flank charge the enemy when its convenient for you.

Note: I don't personally see the attraction of saying a cheaper unit is better (well, equal in killy-ness, better in price) if you cast two +1 to wound buffs on it. This is sorta the same to me as saying "Black Orcs are better than Chaos Warriors as if I cast Bash 'Em Ladz on the Orcs (re-rolling failed to Hits and Strikes First) and Mork'll Fix It on the Chaos Warriors (6's turn to 1's)."

Yes, you are now superior (BOrcs: 75% hit rate, 66% wound rate, 16% / 0% chance of armor save, half to single wound / model; CWars: 50% hit rate, 33% wound rate, 16-44% chance of armor save, .19-.27 wounds / model). However, you're also banking on:
A) Generation of the spells required.
B) Multiple successful castings of the spells.
C) The points of however many wizards you bought.

While I can see this being argued that it makes units effective (Spearmen can be made worthwhile), I can't see it being used to say it makes a unit better than another. Especially when it requires multiple buffs to boot - I can sorta understand a single buff, but multiple is really needing some factors on your side.


Anyways, what I noticed about Empire when I played them last week: Their shooty units do not like the new +1 Combat Resolution for charging. Loss of outnumber is also often bad for them, if bought in large units.

To throw this into the mix - I was considering using Spears for a parent unit of 10 wide and 4 deep. This means Horde, which means four ranks of attacks when you get charged. Then, you can swing Halberdiers into their flanks. Would the Spears be better that way or too unwieldy?

excellent tips guys! Can't wait to dust off my empire (and lizards) armies when I get my copy of the new tome!!!

What you should keep in mind Shep is that the Empire troops you're applauding and saying that them and Mortars are winning you games, are quite mediocre overall Warhammer wise.

I believe both Skaven and O&G (gulp) can make a stronger army than the Empire list you're describing. They both got the hordes of non-BS war machines to wreak havoc with but they get similar T3 stubborn blocks that outrank you for steadfast bonuses for even less points. Additionally, many armies, like VC, can bring enough Ghouls or Zombies corner to corner of any combat to have equal or more ranks than you do after casualties from hitty units have piled in. I'm not sure how big games you've played and who you've played against, but I wouldn't recommend you to jump into conclusions about your future army list yet.

Swordsmen are actually pretty decent for their cost. They most definitely aren't spectacular, but their advantage is that they can do Clanrat almost as well as Clanrats do (slightly better in some regards, slightly worse in others).

Of course, I'm not a fan of the "Buy 100 models, spend four turns in combat, win because you can take 10+ casualties a turn and eventually you're bound to roll good."

I've played against demons, high elves, warriors of chaos and dwarves so far.

Skaven and O&G can make excellent versions of the lists I'm describing. But I'm just talking about empire here. And my experiences I've had with them.

So far in game, and run the numbers too if you'd like, halbardiers don't lose to equal points value in enemy units. Using mortars, you can make sure that larger blocks at least become the same value before they charge. Just for some number proof...

40x halberdiers full command 220
vs.
16x bloodletters full command 222

Lets assume bloodletters managed to reform at some point to be 8 wide. Its unlikely they'd have time to do that, but for the sake of argument, I'll give them max attacks.
16 swings, 10.67 hits, 8.9 dead halberdiers. 30 halberdier swings back, 15 hit, 10 wound, 6.7 dead bloodletters. Call it 9 and 7. empire loses by 1, passes with BSB re-roll.
Bloodletters swing again... 9 attacks, 6 hits, 5 dead halberdiers. Then halbs go... 25 swings to kill 5-6 more bloodletters, empire wins combat, and the last few bloodletters go back in to the warp. Not only do the halbs win, but they walk out of that fight with 24 halberdiers who can reform to 5x5 for free.

40 halberdiers full command 220
vs.
17x saurus full command 217

Lets say that saurus stay 5x wide with sword and shield and try to win successive combats.
Halberdiers swing first... 24 attacks, 12 hits, 6 wounds, 3.36 dead saurus. Saurus swing 15x times. hit 7.5, killing 5 halberdiers. On the charge, the saurus unit has actually only managed to win by one. Next turn, halbs go first again, killing another 3.36 saurus. Saurus kill another 5 halberdiers. Then again, 3.36 to a now diminishing number of halberdier kills.

How about we step to an 'elite' block....
14x black guard of naggarond with full command 217

black guard go first, lets say they started the game 6 wide. 18 attacks, 16 hits, 10.6 dead halberds. Halbs swing back 24 times, get 12 hits and 8 wounds, 6.72 black guard die. They win by a respectable margin but obviously the halbs remain stubborn. The black guard go first again with 14 swings, 12 hits, 8 dead halberdiers. 17 halberdiers attack back, 8.5 hit, 5.66 wound 4.76 die. Even if that were only 4 dead, there would only be 3-4 black guard left. This elite unit did the best at chewing through the block, but couldn't even finish it off.

As far as the O&G and skaven mirror match, its really just that. How accurate was my shooting, how accurate was his? Goblins might take away my steadfast, but can they actually beat me in combat? It all depends on how much stone thrower/mortar damage has accumulated.

I'm not saying empire is the new hottness. I'm just reporting findings from in-game. Knights charge something, don't break it, start fighting at s3, don't kill anything, and get permanently stuck. I'm sure I'll be bringing some foot missile troops back at some point, just to keep people honest about breaking out from behind cover. But I'm going to make sure I have big stubborn blocks of something running around or a steam tank, at regular intervals across the table. And I'll also make sure that my shooting does its best to assure that units fight my halberdiers on a point for point basis. Of COURSE my halbs can lose when they are fighting something more expensive. Thats how the game should work. but with horde and steadfast in play, people actually have to earn my banner. Not just fling 5x knights at me.

If you weren't sure that large blocks of infantry came out of this edition change with a massive buff then you can either take my word for it, or use a combat calculator to check it. Of course stone throwers/mortars/hellcannons are going to come in to vogue because of how good big blocks are. But in my short experience with the new rules so far. 5 points for a strength 4 model has been the best core option for empire. And war machines have been the best special option, steam tanks and war machines still look to be the best rares, and the BSB and wizards (with a one or two mini-fighting characters) seem to be the best characters.

I'm not 'calling' future tourney winner empire here. But it is crazy to discount the buffs that state troops got. And its likewise crazy to discount the nerf that knights took, specifically empire knights.

Have you tried mass engineers yet for your mortars?

One thing of note should probably be that I wouldn't put it past GW to change the mortar somehow in the erratas, as I think non-bs shooting is priced pretty poorly for 8th edition. Or maybe they won't, in which case 3 mortars pretty much became defacto for all empire armies in non-comp environs.

I'm pretty excited about blowing the dust off of my Warrior Priest models. At 2250 I'm considering one of two character selection models:
1. General of the Empire (sword of Sigismund, Holy relic), Arch Lector (armor of Meteoric armor), Mounted BSB with (Shroud of Magnus), and a couple of cheap Battle Wizards.
2. General of the Empire, Mounted BSB, Warrior Priest, and 2 cheap battle Wizards.

Having the 1 or 2 Prayers along with the 1 to 2 extra Dispel Dice is pretty tempting. Granting the Hatred is a big bonus as well. The great thing about them is how cheap the Wizards are. In 7th I always wished I could fit in that extra character (and now I can).

I think Greatswords are going to be used more often as well. The only way I would take them is if I had a Captain with a Rod of Command or Icon of Magnus (to keep them from auto-breaking from fear/terror causers). Now I know that Stubborn is there regardless. The new Standards give them some fresh options (if you take a General of the Empire that is). I'm thinking the Standard of Arcane Warding is a good one, but the banner that grants Flaming attacks is pretty tempting as well.

Shep, I agree with many of your findings.

Magic's RoI is indeed much better. I rarely ever had 7+ PD in 7th edition, and then there's channeling on top (and you can improve that as well). It's really refreshing to actually get an active magic phase. Somewhat related to that, I'm going to take a WL for a while. +4 is just too good to pass up. If it turns out that he dies too often, I will work some redundancy into the list.

I cannot at the moment test war machines in a serious environment, as I mainly play against Skaven and the pesky Stormbanner but it is pretty obvious that they can absolutely massacre anyone else. I think some moderation is in order, nobody wants to take the DoC's place, PR-wise. I also think you are spot on with your assessment of BS based weaponry. Regarding buffs, I do not discount them but I wouldn't figure them in either. Magic isn't reliable. You just don't know what or how much you will be able to cast and what will be dispelled in your opponent's turn.

Big blocks are certainly useful, which is a good thing considering their painful performance in 7th. They just don't budge, it's amazing. Yes, Skaven and some others can outrank us but there are solutions to that as well. The only "problem" is that they do not kill stuff (not even Halberdiers with a WP). It isn't a real problem though as the just need support, and this is where I think cavalry still plays a role. As I said elsewhere, I believe that Empire knights are cheap enough to be fielded in ranks. 9-12 knights with or without character support can hurt stuff - and have the movement to get there in time. I also disagree that they have been nerfed the hardest - not in comparison to other cavalry, that is, as with only one attack, they do not care much about the single supporting attack rule.

Other than that, a BSB is the new star.

AndrewC wrote:
So the rules have changed between editions?

I gather that is the reason why they call it a *new* edition!

ShivanAngel wrote:Bound spells and items just got stronger imo.

Sure they take power dice now, but they are going to start going off at a higher level, making them harder to dispell. Bound level 5 spells could almost always be popped on two dice, now it will probably take 3. Bound level 3 could be popped on one 2/3 of the time. Was a good change imo.

I disagree. They take away PD from your real wizards and are in no way harder to dispell. When your WP rolls 2 dice, your opponent might even be able to stop it one a single one, depending on what you roll and what level he is. Okay, they don't cause miscasts and you can throw 6 dice at a prayer now but in the former situation, you're not accomplishing anything and in the latter case, the RiP's can be easily dispelled later. Okay, that takes a PD away from them but then again you spent some of your PD to pray, too, so you're no better off.

I have also heard that GW has seriously bad things in store for WP's. Since the early FAQ's have apparently undergone a revision, I'm cautious and definitively not certain whether this is true but I'll reserve my judgement on them until the FAQ's are actually out.

Lord Solar Plexus wrote:
I disagree. They take away PD from your real wizards and are in no way harder to dispell. When your WP rolls 2 dice, your opponent might even be able to stop it one a single one, depending on what you roll and what level he is. Okay, they don't cause miscasts and you can throw 6 dice at a prayer now but in the former situation, you're not accomplishing anything and in the latter case, the RiP's can be easily dispelled later. Okay, that takes a PD away from them but then again you spent some of your PD to pray, too, so you're no better off.

I think the key for prayers is only throwing a single die at them. Half the time you'll get them off, and does your opponent really want to throw only a single die at trying to dispel it? 33% of the time, the dispel will fail and the highest level wizard will lose concentration, giving you a huge advantage in the rest of the phase.

Most likely, I think they will let the prayers through that go on a single die. If you could manage to get 4 or 5 RiP spells in place by turn 2, your opponent isn't going to have the PD to dispel them all unless they sacrifice a magic phase. Either way, you're coming out ahead.

@LSP

I have changed my tune on empire knights in recent games. On advisement from basically everybody, I've tried the 5x with banner and the 10x with musician and banner. Fleeing into range of the BSB while holding a musician is a sure thing, and it buys me a full extra turn of shooting at enemy fast stuff.

When I don't need to flee, moving out to midfield early and then just taking a turn 2 charge after someone is forced to march a unit right in to my charge arc in order to get to my warmachines is awesome. It happens so early that you are reforming right into flank and rear charges on turns 3-4.

I think I'm going to try a big knight unit and then a mid-sized halberdier bunker for my wizard lord. Its possible that the halbs could become swordsmen, but I don't think the extra 20-30 points is going to provide the wiz with enough protection. He'll need to get out of there before they are in combat anyway, so I think I'll keep them cheap. Outside of that bunker, I think I'm going to stay mostly core cav.

Those knights and at least three fast cav units will really gum up enemy fast movers, buying my war machines more time to shoot.

Since my war machiens can't flee, and since they are so deep in my deployment zone, any successful charges gets enemy units completely out of my wizards LOS. It just can't be allowed to happen. Lots of cavalry help me stop that from happening.

Shep wrote:Thats great stuff with the spears. I like the fact that they can eventually outpace halberds with the right kind of spells on them. COuld you edit your post to include the numbers with the bests spell. You left them out.

Sorry about that.

Spears, WP, AP banner, +1 S +1 T Beasts spell:
vs T3 5++ save: 6.25 kills
vs T4 5++ save: 4.69 kills

Halbs, WP, AP banner, +1 S +1 T Beasts spell:
vs T3 5++ save: 5.21 kills
vs T4 5++ save: 4.16 kills

I've run lots and lots of scenarios with Spears vs Halberds, and have come to the following conclusion:

Halbs are always slightly better unless you buff the STR of both units, in which case the extra attacks from the spears come out ahead. Since there is an exception to every rule, buffed Halbs are better than buffed spears if the target is T4+ with a 4+ or better save. Also, running in horde formation, buffed Halbs are almost identical in performance to buffed spears (with a very slight edge toward Spears).

On the flip side, spears are more durable than halbs by about .5 to 1 kills depending on attacking unit. Once you hit STR 5, both units are equally dead. However, Spears benefit more from defensive buffs than Halbs (Scaly Skin save from Lore of Metal, +1 T from lore of Beasts).

Spears vs Swordsmen, swordsmen are more durable by .5 to 2 kills, depending on attacking unit, and if the swords get the parry save or not. However, spears will out kill swords by .5 models to 1.5 models depending on the target unit.

Moral of the story: Spears w/ Shields are the jack of all trades unit, with specialists in Swords (durability), and halbs (offense). In general, if you're not brining along buffs, you'd rather have Swords & Halbs. If you're brining along a warrior priest, the Spears start to look a lot more attractive, and if you're brining a warrior priest as well as a lore of beasts or lore of metal wizards, the spears become the better unit.